Landing at a Major Bravo

AdamZ

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Adam Zucker
In the next month I will have the opportunity to fly into a Major Class B airport. Last time I was there in a GA plane ( Seneca II) we were sandwiched between a USAir 757 in front and a Luftansa 767 behind us.

Were probably going in a Lance this time. I am expecting the instruction mantiain Max forward speed or something like that on the approach. So how does one pull this off?

Do I maintain 129 kts ( max gear extension speed) and zero flaps right down to the numbers then chop the throttle pop in flaps and drop ( chop pop and drop) and float for a mile? While the Continental triple 7 is screaming up my Arse.

Or do I land long, which may be necessary to land above and beyond the touch down point of the Heavy metal in front of me so as to avoid wake turbulence?

Thanks for the Advice!
 
I keep the plane High to avoid the wake. I cross the numbers at 500 ft and touch down mid runway. As far as speed, I keep it as fast as I am comfortable with untill 1 mile out. Then I slow to flap speed and add full flaps and lower the gear if I am lucky enought to be in a retract.
You have as much right to be there as the big boys, so don't let ATC push you into anything you are uncomfortable with.
 
i would definitely avoid the wake turbulence. although i believe that in Class B the controllers are *supposed* to take care of that for you. My only Class B landing is at Kansas City International in a lance. Not a very busy class b, in fact KC downtown, class D, has more operations per day, just not airline service. we came in between a couple southwest 737's but i dont think i flew any different approach than normal. maybe a little faster but definitely didnt scream down final like you propose. i have no doubt we were at the typical 100 mph, full flaps, gear down by short final. details are a little fuzzy. of course philly (i assume) is probably totally different, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
 
AdamZ said:
I am expecting the instruction mantiain Max forward speed or something like that on the approach. So how does one pull this off?

Do I maintain 129 kts ( max gear extension speed) and zero flaps right down to the numbers then chop the throttle pop in flaps and drop ( chop pop and drop) and float for a mile? While the Continental triple 7 is screaming up my Arse.
Tell them what you are going to do. I have heard pilots say (on this or another board) in response to the request "max forward speed": "I can give you xxx kts to the fence if I can have the whole runway to land." Choose speed xxx carefully given the length of the runway, etc.

Then do it. When you cross the fence, chop, pop, and drop as V speeds permit. Stay out of ground effect until you have decelerated to normal approach speed - you don't want to be in the low drag environment down low. For once, drag is your friend.:yes:

-Skip
 
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And if you are going to land long be sure to tell them.

Before you leave for your Class B airport, plan your taxi route to FBO from each and every runway, so you don't have to worry about that either.
 
what about not worrying about flap speeds and just land without flaps...
you can come in alot faster and you wont float for very long...i do flapless landings in the warrior sometimes at my home airport..pretty short runway and i use the whole thing...you shouldnt have a problem at any class B as long as they give you the whole runway

A
 
Remember that the worst thing that can happen to the controller is spilling coffee on himself. Don't let them push you into something foolish like a gear-up landing or blowing tires or running off the end of the runway or getting rolled upside down by wake turbulence. Do what you can to keep your speed up for them, but don't let them fly your plane in a manner you wouldn't do yourself. And don't let them push you into trashing your engine, either, especially if it's a Turbo Lance.
 
For a maximum experience event schedule your arrival to coincide with the peak arrival period for the subject airport. That goes over real well with all concerned.
 
Adam:

I've done just what's been stated: told the tower what I could give them and asked to land long. 140 to 150 knots is most accomodative. I've been 180 at the end of the El Paso runway, slowed to 150 after passing, dropped the gear, 120 full flaps and made my turnoff in the A-36 more than once.

As Ron said, gear things to your plane and capabilities. Communicate what you can do and fly safe.

In San Diego it was different as the FBO was on the side of the filed that had a short taxiway. Had to pull up in time to turn off and make that taxiway.

Many Class Bs have a high speed taxiway which would help you turn at a pretty high rate of speed if you're comfortable with it.

Best,

Dave
 
It was easy for me to maintain close to full power on final at CLT when they asked me to keep my speed up. Drop gear and flaps crossing the threshold, and I was still able to easily stop before the end of the runway.

It depends on your plane and experience.
 
wsuffa said:
It was easy for me to maintain close to full power on final at CLT when they asked me to keep my speed up. Drop gear and flaps crossing the threshold, and I was still able to easily stop before the end of the runway.

It depends on your plane and experience.
Adam, I have done ORD in a turbo Lance. They (ORD) absolutely need 170 kts on the 'slope. Keep the gear up. Run 1.5 dots low on the ILS, which is still well above the guy 3 miles ahead of you. When he is staring his flare, you have to be hard on your turbo- a rapid power reduction, slip in a climb pitch attitude to 129 knots, drop the gear. Advise tower that you are slowing. Drop 'em and get dirty and fly 125.

You gave 'em 170 for as long as you could, you did your end. Now the problems are theirs. Exit quickly as the 737 behind you is prolly doing S turns.
 
mattaxelrod said:
Which airport, Adam?

KBOS Matt.

Thanks for the info everyone. Bruce, its a 75 Straight Tail Lance without Turbo charging. So thankfully no chance of blowing the turbo charger up. I like the trick of flying the ILS one and a half dots low.

So do I have it right that when the MD11 in front of me flares to chop the power, pull back as if pitching for a normal climb inorder to bring it to gear extension speed , then drop the gear and put in full flaps and put her down?
 
that sounds about exactly the way bruce said it. I would probably throw a slip in there, especially if you dont have any passengers in the back.
 
AdamZ said:
In the next month I will have the opportunity to fly into a Major Class B airport. Last time I was there in a GA plane ( Seneca II) we were sandwiched between a USAir 757 in front and a Luftansa 767 behind us.

Were probably going in a Lance this time. I am expecting the instruction mantiain Max forward speed or something like that on the approach. So how does one pull this off?

Do I maintain 129 kts ( max gear extension speed) and zero flaps right down to the numbers then chop the throttle pop in flaps and drop ( chop pop and drop) and float for a mile? While the Continental triple 7 is screaming up my Arse.

Or do I land long, which may be necessary to land above and beyond the touch down point of the Heavy metal in front of me so as to avoid wake turbulence?

Thanks for the Advice!

I used to go into LAX on an infrequent basis in my Travel Air. I'd come down the slope clean with power on (170+), at the last moment I'd chop power and throw in a quick hard slip to make Vle, dump the gear and land with a clean wing, kept the speed up on the runway till the first high speed and got off there. If you're not comfortable with something like that, do what you are comfortable with. If tower requests something you don't feel good about, "Unable, I can give you..." and just get off and clear of the runway as soon as able. Using the brakes on the runway is more of a nuisance to them than 10 kts slower on short final.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Adam:

I've done just what's been stated: told the tower what I could give them and asked to land long. 140 to 150 knots is most accomodative. I've been 180 at the end of the El Paso runway, slowed to 150 after passing, dropped the gear, 120 full flaps and made my turnoff in the A-36 more than once.

What he said. My two cents: It doesn't hurt to rehearse what you are going to say. If you can explain it well, they tend to be very accomodating. If you stumble with your words, they expect you to stumble with your landing.:blueplane:
ApacheBob
 
Agree with everyone else. ESPECIALLY the part about what you are comfortable with.
Worst thing that will happen is you might get sent around for different sequencing. Better than as others stated you run off the end of the runway.
When I get the "keep up your speed", I just tell them I can do XX over the fence. Has always worked out just fine since they knew ahead of time what I was going to be able to do.

Mark B.
 
Adam,
If the WX at KBOS is VFR and the winds are reasonable be ready to use runway 15L/33R. At 2700 feet long you'll need to be more aware of your short field technique than anything else. Should KBOS be doing approaches to the South (traffic lands 27 and 22L and departs 22R) be very careful turning off 22L for the hold short of 22R. The hold short lines are distinct but many, many, many people have gotten themselves in an incursion jam there. One of the neater (is that a word?) approaches into KBOS is the ILS 15R circle to 4L. Airliners will do the ILS 4R straight in but you'll get to do the tour of the Charles River and the Tobin River Bridge. Don't break off the straight in till you're over the bridge by the way and stay over the middle of the river. Part of making KBOS work for a small plane is timing your arrival. Like many other big airports it has some slack times. If you can be flexible on your arrival time the experience is worth the trip. Your time at Signature (down the end 15R) will not be memorable but your landing fee will be. Have fun.
 
Be crisp and professional in how you respond to vectors and you'll give them confidence in your ability to coordinate in their traffic management.
 
Adam,

Practice fast approaches before you go. I've been doing that a lot after I was dissatisfied with my performance when asked for best forward speed on an ILS one night with a jet on my tail.

I can maintain 130kts (cruise speed) in the 182 to about 320-340 AGL. Throttle back, prop forward (high RPM = high drag without power), flaps all the way out as soon as able, and I can land without floating. Of course, the old 182 with the 40-degree flaps is a very high-drag airplane in the landing configuration, so it'll vary.

The trick is that you do NOT want to be carrying any extra speed into ground effect, as it will take you longer to slow down and you'll be hogging the runway for a significant length of time. Do the slow-down in the air, just don't over-do it. With practice, you should be able to figure out exactly how low you can go before you "chop and drop."
 
AdamZ said:
I like the trick of flying the ILS one and a half dots low.
I don't. How would one square that technique with 14 CFR 91.129(e)(3): "An airplane approaching to land on a runway served by a visual approach slope indicator shall maintain an altitude at or above the glide slope until a lower altitude is necessary for a safe landing." (emphasis added).
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't. How would one square that technique with 14 CFR 91.129(e)(3): "An airplane approaching to land on a runway served by a visual approach slope indicator shall maintain an altitude at or above the glide slope until a lower altitude is necessary for a safe landing." (emphasis added).

Your quote specifies a visual slope indicator. Is there a similar rule for an ILS approach?
 
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AdamZ said:
KBOS Matt.

Thanks for the info everyone. Bruce, its a 75 Straight Tail Lance without Turbo charging. So thankfully no chance of blowing the turbo charger up. I like the trick of flying the ILS one and a half dots low.

So do I have it right that when the MD11 in front of me flares to chop the power, pull back as if pitching for a normal climb inorder to bring it to gear extension speed , then drop the gear and put in full flaps and put her down?
I'd slip in a pitch up attitude to get the airspeed to gear extension speed.

Yes, Ron, I know about 91.129e(2). That is for "large or turbine powered airplne", which is hardly a Lance: "When operating to an airport in Class D airspace, each pilot of- (2): A large or turbine powerred airplane approaching to land on a runway served by an instrument landing system, if tht airplane is ILS equipped, shall fly that airplane at an altitude at or above the glide slope between th outer marker...and the middle marker".

Not making the 737 behind you go around is a practicality of survival at the Class Bravos.

I routinely get a "thanks for your help" at ORD.
 
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cwyckham said:
Your quote specifies a visual slope indicator. Is there a similar rule for an ILS approach?
The reg says stay above the "glide slope," not "visual approach slope indication." Only thing I know that is called "glide slope" is the vertical guidance of an ILS.
 
bbchien said:
Yes, Ron, I know about 91.129e(2). That is for "large or turbine powered airplne"
I didn't say 91.129e(2), I said 91.129e(3), which does apply to light airplanes. And flying a dot and a half low puts you right in the middle of the wake turbulence left by the airliners complying with 91.129e(2). No, thank you.
 
Ron Levy said:
I didn't say 91.129e(2), I said 91.129e(3), which does apply to light airplanes. And flying a dot and a half low puts you right in the middle of the wake turbulence left by the airliners complying with 91.129e(2). No, thank you.
Ugh, Doh!

Immediately following is: "paragraphs (e)(2) and (e)3 of this section do not prohibit normal bracketing maneuvers above or below the glide slope that are conducted for the purpose of remainng on the glide slope". And, a dot and a half low to a dot and a half high is within commercial pilot (though not ATP) standards for the GS...plus, it really is "bracketing" so that you can stay on the GS. If you do this from the center, you will end up three dots high and then have to dive for the GS.

Now, since wake turb. vortices descend, and you are three miles behind on a 3 degree slope, you are actually still quite high compared to the vortices- but if you do the math on five dots low, that's a world of hurt.:no:

So once again it devolves to that nebulous, wonderful thing we call "airmanship". Some have it, some don't, some have good judgement and avoid it (like go to the peripheral airport and rent a car), some can make it work. :hairraise: I dont' like going into ORD but I do on a fairly regular basis (can you say Ka-CHING!?). At least in the Seneca, I can make it work.

Caveat emptor!
 
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Ron Levy said:
The reg says stay above the "glide slope," not "visual approach slope indication." Only thing I know that is called "glide slope" is the vertical guidance of an ILS.

The reg says
An airplane approaching to land on a runway served by a visual approach slope indicator shall maintain an altitude at or above the glide slope until a lower altitude is necessary for a safe landing.

No mention is made of an ILS, just of a visual indicator. Also, this is for Class D airspace. There's no corresponding rule in the Class B rule (91.131).

There's obviously room below an ILS to account for imperfect pilots. Does anyone know what the official tolerance is?

Chris
 
bbchien said:
, some have good judgement and avoid it (like go to the peripheral airport and rent a car), some can make it work. :hairraise: I dont' like going into ORD but I do on a fairly regular basis (can you say Ka-CHING!?). At least in the Seneca, I can make it work.

Caveat emptor!

Releiver field is not currently an option, Flight is a positioning flight for and Angel Flight where Pt needs to be picked up.
 
Ron Levy said:
The reg says stay above the "glide slope," not "visual approach slope indication." Only thing I know that is called "glide slope" is the vertical guidance of an ILS.

That makes no sense whatsoever. (Of course, what does, in FAA legalese...)

Ron, what about if you're landing on a runway that is not "served by a visual approach slope indicator", but is served by an ILS? Is it OK to go below the glideslope then, since this reg obviously wouldn't apply?

What about a runway that IS "served by a visual approach slope indicator" but has no ILS? If the only thing that's called a "glide slope" is the vertical guidance of an ILS, how would this reg apply?

If the only thing that's called a glideslope is the vertical guidance of an ILS, please explain the title of section 2-1-2 of the AIM:

AIM Chapter 2 said:
2-1-2. Visual Glideslope Indicators

:confused:
 
Deliberately flying a dot and a half low all the way in with no attempt to get back on the glide slope isn't "bracketing." Bracketing means trying a power setting, seeing if it tracks, and if not, then adjusting to nail the glide slope.

As regards D vs B space, see 91.131(a): "No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with §91.129 and the following rules..."

Finally, deliberately flying low on final just doesn't fit with my flying philosophy regarding altitude above me, especially that close to the ground.
 
Ron Levy said:
Finally, deliberately flying low on final just doesn't fit with my flying philosophy regarding altitude above me, especially that close to the ground.

Me either, no sense flying partial power, shallow approaches in light trainers.
 
Adam, decide what it is you are comfortable doing, and then when asked by the controller, tell him/her, then and this is the important part.

DO WHAT YOU TELL THEM YOU WILL DO.

Seems to me you have two choices.

1) don't do anything any differently than you would at any class D airport. If this is what you are comfortable with, then tell them what you can do. They will work you in somehow. You have as much right to be there as the airliner --> oh it's an angel flight, perhaps you have more right to be there.

or

2) accomodate their need for speed. To do this you will need to understand your airplane, I haven't flown a lance since 1982 so I don't remember the numbers, but I recall that it was no slouch.

Know

i) what is your best level speed - you may even wish to consider using a power setting that is higher than normal cruise (keeping in mind any a/c limitations).

ii) what is your best speed downhill clean - if it is smooth air are you comfortable in the yellow arc or you do you not even want to go there? If it is not smooth then you are looking at Vno as the max speed you'll fly.

iii) know the effect your drag devices have on IAS. When the gear comes down how much speed do you lose? When the flaps are at each setting how much speed do you lose? You are probably looking at 15 kias for the gear and 5 kias for each flap extension, but you need to figure it out for real.

Knowing all of the above, construct approach profiles you are comfortable with. You'll need two of them if you are playing the speed game.

Call them the long downhill and the chop and drop.

The long downhill is what you get when they put you on the approach far outside the OM and say "give me your best speed to the marker, cleared for the ILS 4L approach, say what speed that will be." [Now is the time to say a real number 160 or 150 or whatever it is, no weasley 'I'll do the best I can'. Give the controller something to work with.] For this profile you need to keep your speed up to the marker and then slow down. Lance's are not particularly slippery so you may be able to do this without leveling off, but play with it ahead of time. If you are going to need to level briefly then you want to get that part started before the marker. Here is one possible wayt to make it work. You are turned on the approach ten miles outside the marker. When you are 1/2 mile from the marker you dip 1 dot below and then power back (off), level off or start a shallow climb just as you get to the marker. When you get to gear speed (I think it is much higher than flaps 5 speed) you drop the gear and start down the slope. You may be about 1/2 dot high by now, but that is okay. Do not fixate on the gear as soon as the switch is down you need to get the slope under control. Don't chase the slope but try not to get any higher. About the same time you are doing all this the approach controller is going to switch you to tower. Fly the airplane first, talk when you have time. The rest of the way down is up to you. With the gear out you can pretty much fly whatever speed you are comfortable, with or without flaps and know it will be fairly easy to slow down. Don't be a hero, at 500' agl or 500' above DH if it is IMC start slowing to your landing speed. When you get on the runway get off as soon as you can keeping in mind you are driving a tricycle.

500' is an important altitude. You want to be at Vref +10 and slowing to your Vref speed. You need to confirm the gear (a final GUMP check) and you need to know that you are cleared to land.

the chop and drop is basically the same thing without the need to dip below the slope. In the chop and drop the controller vectors you into the approach just outside or at the marker (they may even ask if you'll accept that) they will probably have you level at the g/s intercept altitutude or similarly low. You do not want to be high during any of this, excess altitude will turn into unwanted airspeed later when you are trying to slow. When they give you a descent go there, quickly, crisply, smoothly. I shoot for 1000 fpm. The important thing is you don't get above the slope or else this becomes a much more difficult exercise. When the controller turns you on to the final at the marker you'll need to roll out and start down all at the same time, you also need the gear going down. If you need to, you can dip below the slope and then bleed off the speed the way you did above.

None of this is difficult except the first time you do it. So practice it before hand or just tell them you can only do 120 or whatever to the marker. BE SAFE.

Remember, glide slope is the whole glide slope, not just the center. There is nothing wrong with flying it a half dot high all the way down as a wake turbulence precaution. There is nothing legally wrong with being a half dot or one dot or one and one half dots low outside the marker, even for the airline types.

The most important thing though is figure out what you are comfortable with and then do what you tell them you will do.

Have fun.
 
tonycondon said:
Me either, no sense flying partial power, shallow approaches in light trainers.

Exactly. That's why it's better to poweroff a couple thousand above pattern turning downwind. :D
 
Well, Adam, you've sparked a nice discussion. We'll want a full report from you when the mission is complete.

I feel like a pet or small child when I fly through Bravo -- "Awww, isn't that cute, a Sundowner flying through our airspace." Wonder what they'd say if I wanted to land....
 
Ron Levy said:
Deliberately flying a dot and a half low all the way in with no attempt to get back on the glide slope isn't "bracketing." Bracketing means trying a power setting, seeing if it tracks, and if not, then adjusting to nail the glide slope.

As regards D vs B space, see 91.131(a): "No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with §91.129 and the following rules..."

Finally, deliberately flying low on final just doesn't fit with my flying philosophy regarding altitude above me, especially that close to the ground.
Actually, Ron, that's the FIRST thing, not the last.

Well, then I would suggest actually bracketing. Just make sure that five miles out you start to bracket a dot.5 low, so that when you complete the slip nose up you are dot.5 high.

Or I would suggest the reliever field, and renting a car to pick up the AF guest. A lot of Lifeline Pilots do that. Seriously. It may be different where you're going, but at ORD if you can't give them 170 you can fuggetaboutit. They'll put you in a hold or a zig zag waiting for a gap, but there are NONE. BTDT. If this is not within your comfort level, do NOT SCREW THE POOCH, go elsewhere. You are PIC.

In 135 ops, there is no way I'd be a dot low. But this is not 135.

Lastly, Arnold said it much better than I can.
 
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To summarize:

Class B airports can be a real Mother ZUCKER!!

On the way in, don't let them SHOOK you up!

If they ask for faster, tell them you CONDON do it!!

On the way down, go EAMON out above and below those needles.

SKIP right over that threashold.

Take that approach to the MATTs and really PEGGY it.

If you miss up a bit, keep your CHIEN up; don't let 'em LEVY any fines!

Let us know how it went!!

Best,

Dave
 
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I haven't done it in the saratoga yet, but I did once do Dulles in a 172. We were #2 behind a 747 and we got down in front of what I think was a 737. We flew the glide slope (visual) at 115 knots until short short final. At that time, we pulled power off, pulled the nose up and dumped flaps as soon as we were in the arc. Then we bled off speed and flared and landed. With 11000 feet, getting stopped in time was NOT an issue. Again, this was a skyhawk. Might be a bit longer to get slowed down in a Lance or 'toga.

Jim G
 
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