Landing an Archer

[Radio Flyer]

I've been training in a Liberty XL2. Last week, I transitioned to an Archer to complete my training. One of the things I noticed was that when I trimmed for landing speed in the Archer, when the time came to flare, it seemed very difficult to get the nose up. I am assuming that I trimmed the nose too low and that was what made it hard to pull back on the yoke enough to land on the mains first. It felt like I really had to fight it.

Since I'm still a rather low-time student, my question is: is it possible to trim too much? Any advice on how best to trim for proper airspeed but not trim so much that I have to fight the plane to land it?

 

[taters]

On final it can seem deceiving how much you have to crank the trim a Pa-28.

Be sure and trim on final so the nose does not drop at all, it should hold approach attitude without any back pressure on the yoke. When you flare additions of back pressure will still be needed to start and maintain the flare. Be sure to keep "flying" the plane even after the mains touch...you can really roll them on nice.

If you do this right it will feel like you put in ton of trim...but if you check the trim position indicator you should be around neutral (they all differ some).

 

[COFlyBoy]

Most of the Cherokee line end up pretty nose heavy with just the front seats occupied.

If you trimmed for your approach speed, then you did it right. Buck up and build some muscles. You never want to trim so much you have to push down on final. You run the risk of getting distracted and reducing forward pressure which will make the plane slow down.

 

[Radio Flyer]

Most of the Cherokee line end up pretty nose heavy with just the front seats occupied.

If you trimmed for your approach speed, then you did it right. Buck up and build some muscles.

Been working out every day

It was just so much different than the little Liberty, I wanted to make sure I wasn't supposed to do something else I wasn't doing. If I pulled back on the stick that much in the Liberty I would have set it down on the tail.

Was supposed to go back up tonight, but weather has postponed my second flight in it.

 

[Bob Noel]

Most of the Cherokee line end up pretty nose heavy with just the front seats occupied.

If you trimmed for your approach speed, then you did it right. Buck up and build some muscles. You never want to trim so much you have to push down on final. You run the risk of getting distracted and reducing forward pressure which will make the plane slow down.

hmmmm, which contradicts the advice of my CFII years ago.

Of course, he was telling me to have just a little forward pressure. When you reduce throttle the pressure eases.

 

[COFlyBoy]

hmmmm, which contradicts the advice of my CFII years ago.

Of course, he was telling me to have just a little forward pressure. When you reduce throttle the pressure eases.

Maybe the trim behavior varies a bit from plane to plane. In my bird (PA-32) the trim pretty much sets the airspeed. If you trim it to approach speed, say 85 mph, and have a bit of forward pressure on the yoke, then you aren't actually trimmed to 85 mph, you're trimmed for a lower airspeed. If you happen to get distracted by the bikin-clad sun bathers next to the runway, and ease up of the forward pressure, then you run the risk of getting too slow.

Also, I find there to be no let up in yoke pressure based on throttle setting (when coming down final).

 

[zaitcev]

My primary CFI made the landing trim into a money-see-monkey-do procedure in Cherokee (an ancient Archer). Presuming that the airplane is trimmed on downwind, run checklist (Aux, light). When abeam the numbers, pull the power to 1700, hold nose to lose speed, simultaneously drop a notch of flap and trim-trim-trim - make three cranks of nose-up trim (all of our Cherokees have overhead cranks). Thereafter, trim is not necessary to redo - not on base, not on final, and it's set right in case of a go-around too. Magic. Try it!

Of course now I just trim to suit and a bit ahead for a possible go-around, and I don't have to think about it. Sometimes on final too, because I do not feel so busy that split-second reactions are necessary, and I can spare the right hand for trim crank (or wheel in Cessna). But looking back I think that mechanical procedure helped me back then.

 

[dmccormack]

Here's the link to the certification requirement regarding trim....

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...1918f11d69d6c14d86256bbc0053cc3d!OpenDocument

Search for "Trim" and you'll see the relevant section and such gems as:

(d) It must be possible, with a pilot control force of not more than 10 pounds, to maintain a speed of not more than 1.5

during a power-off glide with landing gear and wing flaps extended, and with--
(1) The most forward center of gravity approved for the maximum weight; and
(2) The most forward center of gravity approved for any weight.

 

[murphey]

I've been training in a Liberty XL2. Last week, I transitioned to an Archer to complete my training. One of the things I noticed was that when I trimmed for landing speed in the Archer, when the time came to flare, it seemed very difficult to get the nose up. I am assuming that I trimmed the nose too low and that was what made it hard to pull back on the yoke enough to land on the mains first. It felt like I really had to fight it.

Since I'm still a rather low-time student, my question is: is it possible to trim too much? Any advice on how best to trim for proper airspeed but not trim so much that I have to fight the plane to land it?

Let's see...the max weight of the Liberty XL2 is 1680, give or take a few. Max weight of the Archer is 2400 (if the same as my cherokee).

Empty wgt Liberty XL2 is about 1090, empty cherokee is 1400. Trust me, that 300 lb difference is very noticeable. Add in the different engine and engine weight, and I'd be very surprised if you didn't have problems the first few times you flew the archer!

 

[PilotAlan]

Here's the link to the certification requirement regarding trim....

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...1918f11d69d6c14d86256bbc0053cc3d!OpenDocument

Search for "Trim" and you'll see the relevant section and such gems as:

(d) It must be possible, with a pilot control force of not more than 10 pounds, to maintain a speed of not more than 1.5

during a power-off glide with landing gear and wing flaps extended, and with--
(1) The most forward center of gravity approved for the maximum weight; and
(2) The most forward center of gravity approved for any weight.

Yes, BUT, that requirement is for airplanes certified under Part 23. The Cherokee (and most affordable aircraft today) were certified under CAR3.

Be very careful reading certification requirements. They can kill you if you don't understand what basis of certification your plane is under, and whether that standard applies to your aircraft.

Also, see that this Part23 requirement is for a speed of not MORE than 1.5 Vs1, which means LESS than 1.5 Vs1. I don't see a limitation of the lowest speed permitted with full nose up trim.

 

[poadeleted20]

I've flown both types. Yes, the pitch feel on the Archer is heavier, and you'll need more "pull" in the flare. OTOH, if you trim for the right speed on final in the Archer (about 65 KIAS, or slower if really light, like with two people and half fuel), the amount of pull needed shouldn't be excessive. On the third hand, if you're flying the Archer at some excessive speed like 75 KIAS (yes, I've heard of people teaching that in an Archer), and trim accordingly, you'll need a lot of pull to get the nose up enough for a good, mains-first landing. A 180HP C-172 will give you much the same issues.

And on the fourth hand, if you try flying a Grumman Tiger or Cheetah, you'll find the amount of pull more like what you experienced in the XL2. It's all about how they designed the plane.

 

[Artiom]

During high performance checkout in C182 CFI tought me to carry just a little bit of power in flare. That made pulling elevator significantly easier. Might work in Archer too.

 

[poadeleted20]

During high performance checkout in C182 CFI tought me to carry just a little bit of power in flare. That made pulling elevator significantly easier.

It also substantially increases landing distance. If you intend landing anywhere near the book distances, don't use this technique, which definitely isn't necessaryin an Archer.

 

[Artiom]

I'm usually land at 3000+ft fields where increased distance does not matter. But workout of pulling C182 elevator does. I would trade landing distance to heavy elevator. Having said that you are right - the landing distance will suffer. Sort of trade off.

 

[Jaybird180]

I trained at a confined short field. You learn speed control on final or you practice go-arounds. My first solo had about 4 "test approaches" IIRC.

 

[Radio Flyer]

On the third hand, if you're flying the Archer at some excessive speed like 75 KIAS (yes, I've heard of people teaching that in an Archer), and trim accordingly, you'll need a lot of pull to get the nose up enough for a good, mains-first landing.

So 75 KIAS would be considered excessive? That may explain it. I was told to keep it between 90 - 100 mph on approach, which works out to be somewhere around 78 - 86 knots. That may explain some of it. For some reason my CFI likes to keep it fast on approach. He had me keep the Liberty at 80 KIAS until the flare. I did much better landing when bringing it in at 70.

Of course, I've only been up in it once too. I've had a couple of cancellations because of weather. I'll see how it does a little slower next time.

 

[Jaybird180]

Run a search on 1.3 VSo. You will find a wealth of information.

 

[RoscoeT]

So 75 KIAS would be considered excessive? That may explain it. I was told to keep it between 90 - 100 mph on approach, which works out to be somewhere around 78 - 86 knots. That may explain some of it. For some reason my CFI likes to keep it fast on approach. He had me keep the Liberty at 80 KIAS until the flare. I did much better landing when bringing it in at 70.

Of course, I've only been up in it once too. I've had a couple of cancellations because of weather. I'll see how it does a little slower next time.

Ask your CFI why in the heck he wants you to approach at 1.8 Vso. Hate to be flippant, but that's just silly. It will seriously inhibit your learning to fly the airplane well. If the instructor can't fly it well himself, or is uncomfortable with a 1.3Vso approach himself, then he is passing on his own weaknesses to you. If this is his permanent method, then he is doing a poor job as a CFI. If it's a temporary learning "method", I still thinks it's way out of line, but would like to know why he uses it and where he's going with it.

 

[COFlyBoy]

Wow! I fly a Cherokee 6 at 85mph in the pattern, slowing to 70 over the fence. Any faster and it floats.

 

[poadeleted20]

So 75 KIAS would be considered excessive? That may explain it. I was told to keep it between 90 - 100 mph on approach, which works out to be somewhere around 78 - 86 knots. That may explain some of it. For some reason my CFI likes to keep it fast on approach. He had me keep the Liberty at 80 KIAS until the flare. I did much better landing when bringing it in at 70.

Of course, I've only been up in it once too. I've had a couple of cancellations because of weather. I'll see how it does a little slower next time.

Sounds like you may be smarter than your instructor, but try not to let him know that. It also sounds like you know how to "listen" to the airplane, and that's a good thing.

Yes, 90-100 mph IAS is a pretty fast approach speed for an Archer, and would explain what is happening. Try 70-75 mph (light-heavy) and I think you'll find things work much better all the way around. 90-100 mph is about what to aim for on downwind, not final, in an Archer.

 

[weilke]

Your instructor teaches a somewhat nonstandard technique for this plane it seems.

That said, sometime further along in your training should be a lesson on how to do somewhat non-standard approaches without gettting frazzled. That may include barreling through the pattern at 110kts and coming down final at 90 or starting your pattern from a lower than normal altitude and very tight in. There will be times that knowing how to do either of those things will come in handy.

 

[poadeleted20]

That said, sometime further along in your training should be a lesson on how to do somewhat non-standard approaches without gettting frazzled. That may include barreling through the pattern at 110kts and coming down final at 90 or starting your pattern from a lower than normal altitude and very tight in. There will be times that knowing how to do either of those things will come in handy.

Not many folks fly Archers into those sorts of airports much, but the point is taken. However, if you do that, you'd best learn to incorporate a lot of trimming as you decelerate in order to avoid the problem described at the top. Remember -- trim for speed, power for climb/descent rate.

 

[bobmrg]

So 75 KIAS would be considered excessive? That may explain it. I was told to keep it between 90 - 100 mph on approach, which works out to be somewhere around 78 - 86 knots. That may explain some of it. For some reason my CFI likes to keep it fast on approach. He had me keep the Liberty at 80 KIAS until the flare. I did much better landing when bringing it in at 70.

Of course, I've only been up in it once too. I've had a couple of cancellations because of weather. I'll see how it does a little slower next time.

Good landings are slow landings.

Bob Gardner

 

[flyersfan31]

I've flown both types. Yes, the pitch feel on the Archer is heavier, and you'll need more "pull" in the flare. OTOH, if you trim for the right speed on final in the Archer (about 65 KIAS, or slower if really light, like with two people and half fuel), the amount of pull needed shouldn't be excessive. On the third hand, if you're flying the Archer at some excessive speed like 75 KIAS (yes, I've heard of people teaching that in an Archer), and trim accordingly, you'll need a lot of pull to get the nose up enough for a good, mains-first landing. A 180HP C-172 will give you much the same issues.

And on the fourth hand, if you try flying a Grumman Tiger or Cheetah, you'll find the amount of pull more like what you experienced in the XL2. It's all about how they designed the plane.

I agree with everything Ron said.

The Liberty is a bit, pardon the pun, flighty compared to the Archer. Definitely requires a lighter touch in my experience.

That being said, the Archer should never feel like a DC3. A little more of a tug than the XL2, sure, but you probably should have a bit more trim in.

That, and you are going waaaaaaaaay too fast down final. The basic 4seat trainers (Archers, 172s, Sundowners) can and want to fly slowly. Try to land at 70 kts and you'll need a 3000 ft runway.

 

[EdFred]

Trimmed too fast = harder pull to get to proper touchdown speed.

 

[Arbiter419]

Good landings are slow landings.

Bob Gardner

Agreed. End of thread.

(Slow being a relative term specific to each aircraft)

 

[Radio Flyer]

Trimmed too fast = harder pull to get to proper touchdown speed.

And I guess that is the answer. I was trimmed for the lower end of what my CFI said - 90, but it still may have been too fast. I also have nearly 10,000 feet of runway to work with. He may have had his reasons for the speed being my first flight in the Archer and a long runway, but I'll try it a bit slower. I go back up this afternoon.

 

[COFlyBoy]

And I guess that is the answer. I was trimmed for the lower end of what my CFI said - 90, but it still may have been too fast. I also have nearly 10,000 feet of runway to work with. He may have had his reasons for the speed being my first flight in the Archer and a long runway, but I'll try it a bit slower. I go back up this afternoon.

Floating down the runway is much harder than being on speed. You should be coming over the fence at no more than 70mph.

 

[poadeleted20]

Floating down the runway is much harder than being on speed. You should be coming over the fence at no more than 70.

Y'all be careful about throwing around undimensioned numbers. Not all Cherokees' airspeed indicators read knots as primary, and telling someone "70" is right or "90" is wrong may be misleading if you're thinking knots and they're thinking mph.

 

[EdFred]

Floating down the runway is much harder than being on speed. You should be coming over the fence at no more than 70.

Y'all be careful about throwing around undimensioned numbers. Not all Cherokees' airspeed indicators read knots as primary, and telling someone "70" is right or "90" is wrong may be misleading if you're thinking knots and they're thinking mph.

I don't know if the Archers are much different in approach speed from the Hershey Bar predecessor, but in the 180s 70mph is a good approach speed.

 

[COFlyBoy]

Y'all be careful about throwing around undimensioned numbers. Not all Cherokees' airspeed indicators read knots as primary, and telling someone "70" is right or "90" is wrong may be misleading if you're thinking knots and they're thinking mph.

Word! Corrected.

 

[Bob Noel]

I don't know if the Archers are much different in approach speed from the Hershey Bar predecessor, but in the 180s 70mph is a good approach speed.

nit picking alert: There were a couple of years ('74 and '75' iirc) of Archer that have the hershey bar wing. Archer II has the tapered wing, the Archer I doesn't.

 

[zaitcev]

Apropos that, I discovered that I completely forgot the correct airspeeds when I boarded a rental Cherokee and found that they replaced the airspeed indicator with one which has no colored arcs. Woops. Of course the airplane had the manual, but just to make it funnier the old manuals do not have a table of V-speeds. Instead it's page after page of stuff and buried in there is "approach at 70 mph".

 

[Jaybird180]

A couple power off stalls should tell you where to set the approach speed if you're confused. Just make sure the passengers are all asleep before you do it

 

[John Baker]

You think the nose is heavy now, wait until you start doing soft field landings.

Just get your plane in trim on final, it will be fine for normal landings.

John