Landed on closed runway

For any weather issues, fly the airplane first. I think my question about the closed runway is did you do a low pass first to make sure it is suitable for your landing? And was there another runway at that airport that you could have landed on? I was on a long cross country once and planned to land for fuel at an uncontrolled tower, upon getting a closer look at the runway (appeared to be all snow covered due to recent snow storm), I said to forget that idea and went to a controlled tower instead. I did not want to risk getting stuck without being able to radio for quick help.
 
@notam buster - the reason I asked is I had a similar experience.

Checkout in a new plane at a new airport with a new instructor. Lots of fancy new avionics and CFI told me to put my charts away.

We headed to DeKalb IL (DKB) where I haven't landed in years and hadn't planned on going to last week. I didn't include that as a stop for my local briefing.

We did maneuvers on the way there (turns on a point, steep turns and stalls along with unusual attitudes). Then "OK take us into DKB. ". I got turned around a bit, didn't know the runway numbers etc and trying to impress this new CFI. A little stressful for me.

Pulled out my paper chart (eventually) rather than fumble with avionics. As we are on the 45 we see smoke and a flash of color headed almost straight up. Someone in a black Pitts or Eagle doing aerobatics over the airport. They squawk at us on Unicom suggesting we use the East/West runway instead while the box is active - we bugged out for . . . 3CK!

CFI was on Foreflight checking for the NOTAM on the aerobatic box which he couldn't find. He was a little irritated. I said I didn't get NOTAMS for DKB as it wasn't a planned stop. We moved on.

We headed towards 3CK to clear the area and remain clear of Chicago airspace but we knew 3CK was closed. I used to rent there and it's local to where I am flying now and likely all local pilots know the runway was removed/ground up to widen it. Closed until sometime in October.

When we landed and grabbed a beer at Pilot Pete's the aerobatic box NOTAM for DKB was right there. We didn't see it in flight but did on the ground.

This aircraft has ADSB In/Out and he was blue toothed in to it, but we still didn't see that NOTAM in the air.

We had some nasty wx here the other day so I thought maybe you were in the area.

I feel like someone would really have to be out to get you for anything to come of your landing. You are not the only one to land / takeoff from a closed runway.
 
Foreflight allows you to "pack" for a flight. Which loads all notams plus lots of other info for airports within a window around your flight plan. I use this all the time. You can also ask ATC for notams at a particular airport, if they have time they will do it for you. Lastly you can call flight service.
 
Lindberg said:
You knew the runway was closed and decided to land on it. That's very different from missing a NOTAM and missing seeing machinery and landing on a closed runway endangering yourself and someone else. Based on your description, I assume you considered it an emergency and exercised your PIC authority under FAR 91.3.
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First thing that came to my mind. I would have declared on frequency (even if it’s a CTAF) in case anyone was listening, but also in case it was recorded.

And I don’t mean to get on the OPs case, but you said something to the effect that you did this being cautious, that you didn’t want to risk going looking for another field. To me you should have been being cautious long before this happened. And you probably realize that, and you’re here to tell the story, which is the most important thing. Plenty of people have gotten into situations like this and not lived to tell the tale.

Oh, and to the people who called me an idiot for saying I’d be looking for fuel at half tanks, situations like this are why.
 
mryan75 said:
Oh, and to the people who called me an idiot for saying I’d be looking for fuel at half tanks, situations like this are why.
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One more time. 1/2 tanks with a 2.5 - 3 hour range, absolutely. 1/2 tanks with 9 hours of fuel is a bit overboard.
 
Pinecone said:
One more time. 1/2 tanks with a 2.5 - 3 hour range, absolutely. 1/2 tanks with 9 hours of fuel is a bit overboard.
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Perfectly fair point. I do believe I specified legacy GA, in other words 60s and 70s piston singles, but your point is valid.
 
I may be doing this wrong, and admittedly am VERY open to criticism and suggestions as I'm on the lower side of pilot time. I'm typically not actively looking for fuel when my tanks (or just because my tanks) reach 1/2 (Cherokee Six w/4 tanks, 84g total, burn at 12-13gph). My general approach has been, do my preflight planning w/fuel, reserves, possible alternates, etc. Then, as I'm flying, whether flying IFR or VFR, I'm paying attention to if things are going according to plan or if my enroute has been extended by weather, etc. I'm always tracking fuel enroute (fuel gauges, timer, and fuel totalizer). My personal minimum is 2hrs of reserve (tanks hold enough and I'm a lower time pilot so I play it conservative) and it seems most flights (or flight legs) have enough fuel to get me to the destination and all the back to where I originated w/out refueling (I generally fly 3hr legs or less for sake of my bladder). That said, I'm generally always below a 1/2 (total) on fuel when landing and usually never start with full (84g) of fuel, I usually begin with 70g fuel to free up weight for people/crap.
 
1000RR said:
I may be doing this wrong, and admittedly am VERY open to criticism and suggestions as I'm on the lower side of pilot time. I'm typically not actively looking for fuel when my tanks (or just because my tanks) reach 1/2 (Cherokee Six w/4 tanks, 84g total, burn at 12-13gph). My general approach has been, do my preflight planning w/fuel, reserves, possible alternates, etc. Then, as I'm flying, whether flying IFR or VFR, I'm paying attention to if things are going according to plan or if my enroute has been extended by weather, etc. I'm always tracking fuel enroute (fuel gauges, timer, and fuel totalizer). My personal minimum is 2hrs of reserve (tanks hold enough and I'm a lower time pilot so I play it conservative) and it seems most flights (or flight legs) have enough fuel to get me to the destination and all the back to where I originated w/out refueling (I generally fly 3hr legs or less for sake of my bladder). That said, I'm generally always below a 1/2 (total) on fuel when landing and usually never start with full (84g) of fuel, I usually begin with 70g fuel to free up weight for people/crap.
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I am right there with you. The Comanche holds 90 gallons, approximately 6 hours of cruise. I've had trips of up to 4 - 4.5 hours comfortably. I'm not sure I've ever landed with less than an hour of fuel, rarely with less than two hours. In two hours, I can travel 300 NM, pretty sure I could find somewhere to land if Plan A, B, and C all failed.

One thing I do is set the timer in the airplane for 6 hours when I start up. I know that when it hits 6, I will be on the ground one way or the other. There is no negotiating that fact.
 
The plane I fly holds 92 usable. My goal is to never land with less than 20. That said, 20 is not an emergency, 15 is urgent for me, 10 is the lowest I'd want to be unless in a real emergency. My bladder range is 2 hours max though, so it's usually not an issue.
 
Would this work the same at an uncontrolled strip listing dawn-to-dusk operation? I'd assume the runway is considered closed before sunrise and after sunset. The strip I'm thinking of is lighted. It sounds like it would be legal to arrive and depart outside the posted time at one's own risk.
 
I'm having a hard time differentiating the regulatory aspect of landing and departing on a closed non-towered airport from an otherwise legal off airport landing.
 
Another factor is any limitations on maneuvering with less than XX gallons of fuel for some aircraft.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I'm having a hard time differentiating the regulatory aspect of landing and departing on a closed non-towered airport from an otherwise legal off airport landing.
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I've landed on a taxiway, but it wasn't NOTAM'ed closed. The runways were all open too.
 
Notam buster said:
Was on a long cross country in a relatively unfamiliar aircraft recently. Have foreflight and made sure everything was updated and packed. Had to divert from my original planned fuel stop due to weather. First airport I find was notam closed on Foreflight. Next closest i announce at 10 miles and get garbled chatter back that the north side has aerobatic activity on the north side per notam. Notam didn't show on Foreflight. I guess the south side was fine, but just decided to do 180 and leave the area. Next airport get to downwind and see x's at each end. No notam on Foreflight. All airports were uncontrolled without an atis. At this point I don't want to chance trying to make it to the next airport and chose to land at the closed airport. They were grinding the third airport. Luckily nobody was there but landed fueled up and got out of there. It turns out we had 20 gallons somewhere spread across all the tanks. But again, rather unfamiliar plane and I was trusting gauges rather than time on each tank.

So I'm going to file a NASA report. But what happens next? Why did 1 notam show up but not the other 2? When I landed I checked on my phone and the notams were there, just not on Foreflight. Next day, when I had wifi again they were there.
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Your preflight planning sure left a lot to be desired. You didn’t have alternatives or know your fuel reserve.
 
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Sac Arrow said:
I'm having a hard time differentiating the regulatory aspect of landing and departing on a closed non-towered airport from an otherwise legal off airport landing.
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A landing might be an emergency. A departure cannot be.
 
emergencytakeoff.jpeg
 
Pinecone said:
Some Mooneys have an 8 or 12 gallon minimum in a tank for takeoff. Might be a good idea to follow this on landing, in case of a go around.
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My Beech has a prohibition against taking off with less than 11 gallons in each tank. I haven't found a documented reason yet, but my personal opinion (for what little it's worth) is that when the fuel is that low it's very difficult to tell by sticking the tanks how much fuel you actually have. Due to the shape of the tanks/wings, once there's about 10 gal or less remaining there's almost no fuel directly below the filler cap.
 
Half Fast said:
My Beech has a prohibition against taking off with less than 11 gallons in each tank. I haven't found a documented reason yet, but my personal opinion (for what little it's worth) is that when the fuel is that low it's very difficult to tell by sticking the tanks how much fuel you actually have. Due to the shape of the tanks/wings, once there's about 10 gal or less remaining there's almost no fuel directly below the filler cap.
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We've got a prohibition on taking off with less than 4 gallons in the 20 gallon tank. The fuel pickup is at the lowest point at the front of the tank. There are baffles that will keep the fuel near the pickup for a while, but not indefinitely.
 
Half Fast said:
My Beech has a prohibition against taking off with less than 11 gallons in each tank. I haven't found a documented reason yet, but my personal opinion (for what little it's worth) is that when the fuel is that low it's very difficult to tell by sticking the tanks how much fuel you actually have. Due to the shape of the tanks/wings, once there's about 10 gal or less remaining there's almost no fuel directly below the filler cap.
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I’ve always been told it has to do with the lateral loading as you turn on to the runway not importing the fuel lines.

The Barons I’ve flown had a 13-gallon minimum per side, IIRC. That’s about 50 gallons less than the minimum to see fuel below the cap.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’ve always been told it has to do with the lateral loading as you turn on to the runway not importing the fuel lines.

The Barons I’ve flown had a 13-gallon minimum per side, IIRC. That’s about 50 gallons less than the minimum to see fuel below the cap.
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Could be. I know the Mice aren’t supposed to be slipped for more than 30 seconds to avoid unporting a tank, so the 11 gal minimum might be from the same issue.
 
So . . . I know it is different when you have a "both" position vs not.

And tip tanks/multiple tanks is more complicated.

How do folks manage fuel? In most of my flights, unfortunately, not a concern. 1-1.5 hours and flying a trainer with full tanks (4-5 hrs range).

I've heard (in Pipers) fuel on the minute hand (minute hand on the left side of the clock left tanks and vice versa). Cessnas that I'd be flying anytime soon (basic med) have two tanks and both.

Do you calculate gallons / rate and put that time in your timer? How do you remember to watch/manage fuel?
 
If memory is correct, I may have landed 6 times on runways marked with X's.

The last one is in my log book, and I sat out a major thunderstorm, then continued my trip. Privately owned, no one there.

2 of the other 5 were technically legal, as for one, I had a written invitation to tour the facilities on the airport, and the other time, an officer for the federal agency that enforced the closure was with me.

Long, wide runways with no other traffic are great places to practice certain take off and landing techniques.

Taking off in ground effect, and finding how far you go before you have safe speed to climb out is not done at a busy airport.

Practicing an engine out landing to a specific spot, by adjusting the flaps was progressing nicely until we saw the patrol car zooming up the access road, changed to a full flap missed approach sequence, and gone. That was part of my final prep for the check ride.
 
MauleSkinner said:
What about the maneuvering limitations you mentioned?
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I have seen responses in other threads on other forums about prohibition of certain maneuvers with less than a certain amount of fuel.

Just a consideration. And something you should know about.
 
Pinecone said:
I have seen responses in other threads on other forums about prohibition of certain maneuvers with less than a certain amount of fuel.

Just a consideration. And something you should know about.
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I’ve never seen any. If you happen to run across them again, let us know.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Yeah but that is not what I asked. Forget emergencies. You can legally land off airport and depart off airport.
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If you have the permission of the property owner. If the airport manager closed the runway, it could be assumed you no longer had "permission" in a sense.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
So . . . I know it is different when you have a "both" position vs not.

And tip tanks/multiple tanks is more complicated.

How do folks manage fuel? In most of my flights, unfortunately, not a concern. 1-1.5 hours and flying a trainer with full tanks (4-5 hrs range).

I've heard (in Pipers) fuel on the minute hand (minute hand on the left side of the clock left tanks and vice versa). Cessnas that I'd be flying anytime soon (basic med) have two tanks and both.

Do you calculate gallons / rate and put that time in your timer? How do you remember to watch/manage fuel?
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In the Piper what I usually do is, engine start, run-up and takeoff on the fullest tank. If both are the same, I just pick one and then keep flying on that tank until one hour total since engine start. Then I switch to the other tank, stay on it for an hour. From there, I usually switch tanks in 30 minute intervals. Once close to the destination, I put it on whichever tank is fullest before entering the pattern. Before starting, I write down how many gallons I have in left and right. For every hour on a tank, I take 10 gallons away. For every half hour, I take 5 gallons away and write it down each time I switch tanks, putting a dot on the tank I'm currently on. The way I try to remember switching tanks in the first place is by planning some sort of landmark, best an airport or large, unobstructed fields, near to the time I would have to switch tanks. Since I go with 10 gallons per hour, I have some flexibility so if it takes me an hour and 10 minutes to get to that landmark, no big deal. The goal is to think, "oh look, there is Medicine Hat, time to switch tanks". I usually plan an hour reserve on long cross countries giving me 4 hours of flight time plus reserve in the Cherokee... Much longer than me or any of my human or four legged passengers would want to be flying with no breaks (although, we've done 4 hour legs on several occasions).

When I flew Cessnas during training, it was always both or off.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
So . . . I know it is different when you have a "both" position vs not.

And tip tanks/multiple tanks is more complicated.

How do folks manage fuel? In most of my flights, unfortunately, not a concern. 1-1.5 hours and flying a trainer with full tanks (4-5 hrs range).

I've heard (in Pipers) fuel on the minute hand (minute hand on the left side of the clock left tanks and vice versa). Cessnas that I'd be flying anytime soon (basic med) have two tanks and both.

Do you calculate gallons / rate and put that time in your timer? How do you remember to watch/manage fuel?
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I fly a Cherokee Six. 4 tanks, mains are 25g each (18 to the tabs), tips are 17g each. I have 3 things I do for fuel management (aside from fuel planning during preflight). 1) I switch between the 4 tanks every 30 minutes. My iPad is bluetooth'd into my headset and I have the timer set for 30 minutes to repeat (as a backup, my GTN 650 also is running a timer for 30 minutes and they are not sync'd... I do this so there's just another reminder to look at fuel). 2) I have a fuel totalizer in the panel so I can monitor usage, remaining, and burn rate. I'm usually burning around 12gph. So I'm looking to switch tanks at 30 minutes which should equate to 6g being burned.... and 3) On my knee pad, at the top, I have a space for each of the 4 tanks I put a "tick" mark under to indicate I've had the fuel selector on that tank (likely burning 6g in the 30 minutes it was on that tank). This allows me to estimate what's left in each tank, so if I have 2 tick marks underneath the Rt Tip tank (full = 17g), I know I should have 5g left. I guess we could add #4 - check the fuel gauges. I'm always looking at those and bouncing what I see off of what the others mentioned above are telling me but the other 3 mentioned above are truly where I "manage" my fuel.

It may sound like a lot, but it's just a routine/scan and is 2nd nature once I was in the plane a handful of flights. I look at it as the most preventable accident I have control over - running out of fuel. Having my wife and kids and/or friends in the plane makes my responsibility that much higher. And then the occasional flight to the Bahamas makes fuel management vs weight/cargo I can carry that much more important in those cases too.
 
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Comanche with 4 tanks. Fuel selector is independent per side, so I can pull fuel from both sides at the same time.
I do fuel management one of two ways:

#1)
Take off on a singular main tank, top of climb switch to L-Tip and R-Tip and burn off those for 2+ hours until they dry tank.
Switch back to takeoff tank and burn for just under an hour. Switch to other main and dry tank it. At this point I've been in the air for almost 6 hours and still have 1.2 hours in the tank.

#2)
Take off on singular main tank, top of climb switch to L-Tip and R-Tip and then keep shutting tanks on and off to keep the plane from wanting to bank one way or another too much. Land with 400nm or more of fuel in the tanks and pretty much don't worry about fuel management, because I had to pee after 3 hours in the air anyway.
 
I think a low pass would have been wise… but I think I would have considered a taxiway.

our airport manager has told me “you notice how when there’s runway work I close the runway not the airport? I have nice taxiways and there’s nothing that says you can’t use them”

I routinely land between the taxiway and runway on the grass. I like pavement well enough but I love turf :)
 
Am I missing something here but if the runway was closed shouldn’t the X’s be on the runway? The X’s being on the grass near the runway might be there for when they plan on closing the runway. Since it wasn’t NOTAMed closed and there are no exes on the runway, was it really closed?
 
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