Landed and went off runway

U

Unregistered

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Background: I'm a student and was doing some solo work and on one of my landings, I landed the 172 a bit fast and a bit side-loaded. I felt that the plane was too unstable for me to step on the opposite rudder and that if I did that, the plane might loop around and/or flip, so I decided to let the plane lose speed without too many control inputs to cause it to be even more unstable. Since it was side-loaded (and not going straight), it went right off the runway and into the grass. Neither the plane nor I were hurt, which was pure luck.

Obviously I'd like to learn from this experience. I have some ideas of what I did and what I could have done differently, but I'm looking for more input.

Please do not be too cruel, I feel badly enough about this.
 
No reason for anyone to be ugly about it - there is a reason why these things are called "accidents," and as long as you learn from it, well, no harm, no foul.

It is difficult to analyze from your description, but you should never stop flying the plane; even if you feel like you cannot gather it up enough to keep on the pavement, you should try to make sure that, wherever you go, you do so under as much positive control as you can muster.

Of perhaps greater importance, never forget that, if you are landing and feel like the transition to controlled ground operation is not going properly, cram in the throttle and go around. From your description, it surely sounds like this might have been an option.

Lastly, describe what happened to your instructor and have him/her work through it with you- you may be able to identify some modest changes in your technique which would make a repeat excursion less likely.

Don't let it get you down - we are all learning!
 
Maintaining directional control straight down the runway is not going to cause a nose dragger to flip or ground loop. It is your responsibility as a PIC to ensure the plane is under control all the time. Talk to your instructor about what happened and learn from what he says and suggests.

You need to do what ever it takes to get the plane straight down the runway. Rudder input, dip the wing, what ever it takes or do a go around and find a more favorable runway direction for the wnds involved. Again, your instructor needs to go over options with you.
 
I had problems with directional control during round-oiut and landing as a pre-solo student.

Solution was to fly with a different instructor who was willing to show me how much control input could be used while landing a 172. The resulting philosophy could be simply called: use all the control input necessary to maintain the desired directional & attitude control.

Try real hard not to get in a bind but if necessary stomp on the rudder! Keep it lined up with the runway and if the drift (or offset) to the side is too much then go around. Remember that the centerline isn't sacred but the edges of the runway just might be.

If you knew that exiting the runway was smooth and where unsure about the result of control inputs then you did okay. Work with a CFI to be able to avoid the situation in the future.

A side note: a student at the same field got their private pilot cert about the same time I did. A week or so before their checkride, the student pilot had blown a tire while trying to avoid taking the aircraft off the runway. About six weeks after the pilot's checkride, the pilot balled up a 172 while landing left of the runway. Learn the lessons of maintaining control now.
 
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Question: Did the plane land, or did you put the plane on the runway when it still wanted to fly?

It sounds like the latter. (Don't feel too bad, I landed on a short field with a 10kt tailwind once - I wondered why the heck I was going so fast... ;) )

Lesson to be learned here - when in doubt (like if you're long and fast) GO AROUND.
 
Sounds to me like you were carrying too much energy (i.e. speed) and needed to bleed more off.
 
Another common problem in a crosswind is discontinuing aileron inputs once the wheels are on the runway. You need to increase your aileron input as you slow, until you have full deflection, just as you would for taxiing. If you neutralize the ailerons once you're on the runway in a crosswind the plane will try to run off the runway each time.
 
Summarizing what has been said above, don't ever stop flying the plane. Keep making control inputs until the airplane has come to a complete stop. Be the pilot in command from start to finish.

IOW, Carrie Underwood would not make a good pilot.
 
Unregistered said:
Background: I'm a student and was doing some solo work and on one of my landings, I landed the 172 a bit fast and a bit side-loaded. I felt that the plane was too unstable for me to step on the opposite rudder and that if I did that, the plane might loop around and/or flip, so I decided to let the plane lose speed without too many control inputs to cause it to be even more unstable. Since it was side-loaded (and not going straight), it went right off the runway and into the grass. Neither the plane nor I were hurt, which was pure luck.
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Sounds like you need more instruction in crosswind landings. And Go-Arounds.

If you ever land fast, and out of shape, the solution is usually a go around. When you practice go arounds, try practicing one from a touchdown... that is, touch the runway, then give it the juice and go around. Most instructors have you practice the go around before you even reach the runway, and students are timid to do one after they touch down if they have not practiced.

As others have said, it sounds like you did not use the rudder enough. If the plane starts heading off the runway... Tell it not to with the rudder!!
 
Unregistered said:
Background: I'm a student and was doing some solo work and on one of my landings, I landed the 172 a bit fast and a bit side-loaded.
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Are you planning on doing that again anytime soon?

The first question I would ask is when you realized you were fast and crooked. Was it prior to touchdown, or after you were rolling? If before, why did you touch down? If after, what control imputs would have been necessary to stay on the runway?

I'd be surprised if most pilots haven't had a similar experience early in their career, and most of us learned the same lesson you have learned. Glad nothing was bent, and now you know why us crusty old CFI's are so hell-bent to stay on speed and on centerline, and why we get the hell out of Dodge if it's not happening.
 
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Unregistered said:
Background: I'm a student and was doing some solo work and on one of my landings, I landed the 172 a bit fast and a bit side-loaded. I felt that the plane was too unstable for me to step on the opposite rudder and that if I did that, the plane might loop around and/or flip, so I decided to let the plane lose speed without too many control inputs to cause it to be even more unstable. Since it was side-loaded (and not going straight), it went right off the runway and into the grass. Neither the plane nor I were hurt, which was pure luck.

Obviously I'd like to learn from this experience. I have some ideas of what I did and what I could have done differently, but I'm looking for more input.

Please do not be too cruel, I feel badly enough about this.
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Not a huge issue on the plane part, what the issue I read here is one of confidence to do something for fear of it being wrong. Don't get me wrong, sometimes the only thing you have is what you're looking at so you ride it out. However you had multiple options here that were not taken or considered.

The first option was hitting the throttle and getting out of there, why did you even touch down and not go around when you saw it going bad? There was also not straightening it out for fear of flipping, aileron should do quite well at preventing that at high speeds without a worry.

I think you need to become much more familiar with the plane in the regions you don't normally practice in. If you don't know what your machine can't do, you will never know how much you can do.
 
Geico266 said:
Maintaining directional control straight down the runway is not going to cause a nose dragger to flip or ground loop. It is your responsibility as a PIC to ensure the plane is under control all the time. Talk to your instructor about what happened and learn from what he says and suggests.

You need to do what ever it takes to get the plane straight down the runway. Rudder input, dip the wing, what ever it takes or do a go around and find a more favorable runway direction for the wnds involved. Again, your instructor needs to go over options with you.
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I haven't tried this, but your statement leads me to beleive that I could be on the ground at (or possibly above) Vr, give it full rudder input and not flip over. Or stated differently, landing with too much energy on rollout and trying to make the first turnoff regardless of speed.

Is this true?
 
I don't know what VR is exactly, but i'm pretty sure if you stomp the rudder at 50 kts or so in a 172 its not going to immediately try and drag a wingtip. There is not enough weight on the tires at this speed to cause them to bite enough to flip, the plane will kinda skip and skitter around. At this speed, you have mucho aileron authority too

Taxi fast (around 30kts) and play with the ailerons to see how much the plane will waggle back and forth while most of the weight is still on the wheels
 
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Lets say you land with the nose crabbed to the left, you have a crosswind blowing left to right across the runway. If you do nothing, the tires will bark, the plane will skip on the runway, straighten itself out a bit, then start heading for the left side of the runway. Its turning left across the runway, so it appears the plane wants to roll to the right and drag the right wingtip. Giving it a hefty kick of right rudder at this point is not going to increase the airplane's tendency to roll the right.

I don't think anyone is advocating the OP slam the rudder to the stop upon touching down a little crabbed, but we want him to know that its okay to give the thing a hefty kick if its trying to take you into the weeds
 
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Jaybird180 said:
I haven't tried this, but your statement leads me to beleive that I could be on the ground at (or possibly above) Vr, give it full rudder input and not flip over. Or stated differently, landing with too much energy on rollout and trying to make the first turnoff regardless of speed.

Is this true?
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Yeah, with proper aileron input it shouldn't flip over, and if it does it'll be one of those tip up the tail and tag a wing tip if it does go; besides, getting out of the plane when you're hanging in your seat is kinda fun. The likelihood of injury is very low, the likelihood of damage is irrelevant as it's no different in predictability than the damage done by going off the runway. Either option carries the same risks, one option is the "do nothing" option, the other is the "do something even if it's wrong" option.

The issue here isn't really a student botching a landing, that's a given and even expected, I don't know anyone who hasn't gone off a runway at some time or another. The issue to look at here is one of decision making and again, that's what the whole 'student' thing is about.

What happened is that decisions on handling the plane were made with a lack of information and experience, again, back to 'that's what being a student is about'. The OP didn't freeze interestingly, going off the runway was a conscious decision, to in those regards this was not a bad event, just a mistake in judgement.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I haven't tried this, but your statement leads me to beleive that I could be on the ground at (or possibly above) Vr, give it full rudder input and not flip over. Or stated differently, landing with too much energy on rollout and trying to make the first turnoff regardless of speed.
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Jay, please don't overcomplicate it for the sake of the student. Yes, it's possible to ground-loop a tricycle gear airplane. However, we need to fix a particular issue here first, which is, as much as I can tell, not applying enough rudder and not making it safe with appropriate aileron. The fear of ground loop is what prevented him from applying correct inputs (leaving aide the go-around decision).
 
zaitcev said:
Jay, please don't overcomplicate it for the sake of the student. Yes, it's possible to ground-loop a tricycle gear airplane. However, we need to fix a particular issue here first, which is, as much as I can tell, not applying enough rudder and not making it safe with appropriate aileron. The fear of ground loop is what prevented him from applying correct inputs (leaving aide the go-around decision).
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Fair enough.
 
zaitcev said:
Jay, please don't overcomplicate it for the sake of the student. Yes, it's possible to ground-loop a tricycle gear airplane. However, we need to fix a particular issue here first, which is, as much as I can tell, not applying enough rudder and not making it safe with appropriate aileron. The fear of ground loop is what prevented him from applying correct inputs (leaving aide the go-around decision).
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I'd say it was a girl, too timid for a male student. Usually the timid ones are girls.:popcorn:
 
Dave Theisen said:
"Jesus, take the wheel"
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rage-comics-seriously-jesus.jpg
 
Henning said:
I'd say it was a girl, too timid for a male student. Usually the timid ones are girls.:popcorn:
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No comment here.

But --- I think we've all had one of those surprise moments on a rwy. My most memorable was when I hit a patch of either ice or hard packed snow, and the x-wind got things pretty squirrely. I remember two things very well - one was that time really did seem to slow down, and the other was that I made a conscious decision not to panic. Add those two things together and it ended up being a non-event.
 
wabower said:
...Glad nothing was bent, and now you know why us crusty old CFI's are so hell-bent to stay on speed and on centerline, and why we get the hell out of Dodge if it's not happening.
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I think what Wayne means here by " get out of dodge" is the option of the go around which I'm thinking may have been the answer once you determined that things were not going well. Of course that depends on how far down the runway you were.

Get with your CFI and just work on landing. Don't be too much of a rush to get the plane on the ground.
 
Go-around could be an option if the decision is made early enough.

Since I wasn't in the airplane I'm not going to guess on how much speed it had and how much rudder input was or wasn't used.

How much flaps were you using? I know some folks are taught to land with less than full flaps, and my opinion is unless there's a reason you need that extra energy for something you should use full flaps.
 
TMetzinger said:
Go-around could be an option if the decision is made early enough.

Since I wasn't in the airplane I'm not going to guess on how much speed it had and how much rudder input was or wasn't used.

How much flaps were you using? I know some folks are taught to land with less than full flaps, and my opinion is unless there's a reason you need that extra energy for something you should use full flaps.
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The only time you should 'need' the extra energy that flap reduction provides is when you have a dead engine, otherwise that energy is much better to get from the engine/prop rather than airspeed.
 
Skylane81E said:
rage-comics-seriously-jesus.jpg
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On the other hand...
Well I was caught up with myself
On the highway at night
Drivin like a bat outta hell
When I beheld an amazing sight
It was a lonely apparition
By the roadside standing there
With his thumb out in the wilderness
And a halo in his hair

Chorus:
He said "Gimme a ride to heaven boy
I'll Show you paradise
Yeah gimme a ride to heaven boy
My name is Jesus Christ"
So I come screeching to a halt
I said "Hop on in"
He sais "thanks a lot for the lift
I forgive you of your sins
Yeah I just come from Jerusalem
Where things are going bad
Ahhh gimme a ride to heaven boy
I need to talk to my dad"

Chorus

Well I didn't know what to do
So I jammed her down in gear
Kind a kicked my feet beneath the seat
I was trying to hide the beer
Ahhh but he just grinned and said "My friend,
I know you must think it's odd
But you got nothin to fear about drinkin a beer
If you share it with the son of God"

Chorus

Well I saw good news in his baby blues
So I stomped it on the floor
I said you have to show me how to get there
I ain't been before
"Well it’s a hard place to find" he said
"But I'll give you a little clue
It ain't somewhere up in the air
Its sittin right here inside with you"
Then right in the middle of that perfect smile
From his robes he pulled a gun
An stuck it up beside my head and said
"How's this for Kingdom Come?"
Well I pulled off scared but I heard him say
As he left me beneath the stars
"The Lord moves in mysterious ways
and tonight, my son ... He’s gonna use your car"

-Terry Allen
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Fearless Tower said:
Sounds like you did the opposite of this guy....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa12veWQEgU&feature=related
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By the way... that video gets more entertaining when you put the description into Google Translate.

"Aircraft reported engine failure, made a pass over the runway 06 (tailwind to 24) on the base leg to final was below the threshold 24, I failed to see the aircraft during about 5-7 seconds when this had emerged at the head with a very high angle of attack, and then began to lose altitude significantly eventually land on the side of the track as can see in the video. The day before this aircraft was making a maiden flight as reported lack of fuel and had to land immediately the pilot told passengers the situation and that the next day would make a new baptism to them and this was precisely their flight. At the end of the festival this aircraft was the last to leave and have no control for the aerial was very alert, but very close to having a Dog Strike because there were four dogs for a walk on the runway during takeoff, and because the off from 06 to not be visible to half of the track due to the slope."

Perhaps someone who knows the language better could fix the literal translation "a new baptism to them" but it does add comedic value.
 
Baptism is used correctly as the language often uses 'baptism' same as 'introduction'.
 
Unregistered said:
Background: I'm a student and was doing some solo work and on one of my landings, I landed the 172 a bit fast and a bit side-loaded. I felt that the plane was too unstable for me to step on the opposite rudder and that if I did that, the plane might loop around and/or flip, so I decided to let the plane lose speed without too many control inputs to cause it to be even more unstable. Since it was side-loaded (and not going straight), it went right off the runway and into the grass. Neither the plane nor I were hurt, which was pure luck.

Obviously I'd like to learn from this experience. I have some ideas of what I did and what I could have done differently, but I'm looking for more input.

Please do not be too cruel, I feel badly enough about this.
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It happened because you touched down with too much energy. This likely could have been avoided with a go-around.

You're never better off not flying the airplane. The right combination of rudder and aileron would have prevented your departure from the runway. Something I do quite often as an instructor teaching people to land airplanes.
 
You CAN go around even when on the runway. But never stop flying it. NEVER NEVER NEVER. To give up flying it is to accept death. Uh uh. :(
 
bbchien said:
You CAN go around even when on the runway. But never stop flying it. NEVER NEVER NEVER. To give up flying it is to accept death. Uh uh. :(
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Most of the time, locked brake/blown tire situations make it a no go, but even then, keep flying the airplane. In the OPs credit, it wasn't that they quit flying the plane, they consciously decided to maintain heading off the runway because they did not have the experience base to overcome the timidity to just give it a shot. They felt that straight out was the safest move and I categorize that in there with 'flying the airplane', it was just poor decision making from lack of knowledge.
 
bbchien said:
You CAN go around even when on the runway. But never stop flying it. NEVER NEVER NEVER. To give up flying it is to accept death. Uh uh. :(
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I've always subscribed to the R.A Hoover school of thought...."If you're faced with a forced landing, fly the thing as far into the crash as possible."


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
While undesirable for a number of reasons, the excess energy isn't a big deal if:

1. The runway is of sufficient length to dissipate it without blowing tires or other misadventures.

2. The airplane maintains longitudinal alignment with the runway.

3. The airplane touches down on the mains with the nosewheel off the ground.

Being crooked, however, is a huge compounding factor that ruins the day for many pilots.

jesse said:
It happened because you touched down with too much energy. This likely could have been avoided with a go-around.

You're never better off not flying the airplane. The right combination of rudder and aileron would have prevented your departure from the runway. Something I do quite often as an instructor teaching people to land airplanes.
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wabower said:
While undesirable for a number of reasons, the excess energy isn't a big deal if:

1. The runway is of sufficient length to dissipate it without blowing tires or other misadventures.

2. The airplane maintains longitudinal alignment with the runway.

3. The airplane touches down on the mains with the nosewheel off the ground.

Being crooked, however, is a huge compounding factor that ruins the day for many pilots.
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Correct but any one of the many things that can go wrong will be greatly amplified with increase in energy.
 
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