Lake Amphib, Oshkosh 2107

Why is the left elevator hard up during that takeoff run, while the right side seems to be neutral? It's very apparent at 10:49.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
Why is the left elevator hard up during that takeoff run, while the right side seems to be neutral? It's very apparent at 10:49.

Ron Wanttaja
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If the airplane truly cartwheeled there would be some great forces on those elevators.
I have met "that" pilot, as I'm sure we all have. They exist with 250 hours, and 25,000 hours.
 
Too sad....pilot obviously stressed out and in no condition to fly...passengers too scared of pilot to refuse to go with him on the flight...Flight hours logged is pretty meaningless when it comes down to common sense.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Why is the left elevator hard up during that takeoff run, while the right side seems to be neutral?
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If the airplane truly cartwheeled there would be some great forces on those elevators.
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The issue is apparent on earlier sections of the takeoff run. In fact, I found this picture of the plane docked:
lake_trim.JPG
I think you can even see the hole from the missing inspection panel just outboard of the left float.
flyingron said:
That's a trim tab. It's much bigger on the left to counter torque issues.
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OK, that makes sense.

Curious, though, is THAT much nose-up trim typical of Lake operations?

Ron Wanttaja
 
Probably. If you google search for images of other Lakes you'll see that substantial up trip on the left side in lots of pictures.
 
I lost track of how many times he was warned by different people not to go.

Also, no matter how experienced or mentally sharp, 84 years old seems a bit old to be performing high-risk takeoffs in a seaplane.
 
flyingron said:
Probably. If you google search for images of other Lakes you'll see that substantial up trip on the left side in lots of pictures.
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55809_800.jpg
 
I’m not going to defend his actions on that day...obviously he did some stuff wrong. But this is a tough accident for me to accept. This is the guy that taught my dad and a lot of his generation to fly, gave checkrides to me and a lot of second-generation pilots, and many of us sent the third generation to him for checkrides. He had a tremendously positively influence on pilot education and safety over the years, and having this accident as one of the final and most public part of his legacy really sucks.

don’t allow yourself to be defined by that one day of poor judgment instead of a lifetime of good judgment.
 
"the pilot was difficult to communicate with and did not accept any advice from those trying to persuade him to stay"
..why would he accept any advice? The dude's a 33,000 hr ATP. Must have thought of himself as a god

I've said this here before, and will say it again.. and there are some here who strongly disagree. But hours mean nothing as far as how competent, or safe, a pilot someone is. Cruising on autopilot with another pilot for thousands of hours is bunk.. especially when it comes to GA my last 500 hrs is different from someone else's last 500 hrs, and so forth. Hours are a very limited way of looking at how good someone is

A safe, competent, proficient pilot comes down to individual demeanor, skill set, recent experience, common sense, not having the "dangerous attitudes" the FAA talks about, and overall ability and feel for the plane. There are 300 hr pilots I feel much safer with than with some other 5K+ hr pilots

Too bad people had to die because of this pilot's actions. Sad indeed, and completely preventable.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I have yet to see a pilot who didn’t exhibit at least one of the five hazardous attitudes. It’s not about not having them, it’s about controlling them.
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I think this is true, with a pre-requisite that you have to RECOGNIZE the attitude in yourself to be able to “control” it. Maybe not as much control, as to not allow it to lead to negative outcomes...wierd way to say the same thing, I think.
 
It’s a hard video to watch in many ways. I think if we’re honest, each of us would have to say we’ve all experienced “get-home-itis” and it is indeed powerful. I am now retired so I don’t have to be anywhere at any specific time. Yet I still feel it and occasionally have to mange it to the point of actively resisting it. My SIL is a clinical physiologist and I asked him about it once. After some typical psycho-babble, he alluded that it was related to some instinct developed by early humans to return to the nest and was something that often operates at the subconscious level. Whatever - it would seem the PIC had it to a point where it overcame his otherwise pretty solid judgment. So the video serves as a pretty good reminder for all of to check our attitudes when we fly and know that none of us are impervious.
 
Wow. I was at the seaplane base that day with my friends when this Lake was towed in to the dock. We were talking about the low wing/float - it was really noticable after they all got out of the plane. But none of us have any seaplane experience, so only a passing observation. We caught the shuttle back to the airfield before they departed and only heard about the accident that evening back at the North 40.


MauleSkinner said:
I’m not going to defend his actions on that day...obviously he did some stuff wrong. But this is a tough accident for me to accept. This is the guy that taught my dad and a lot of his generation to fly, gave checkrides to me and a lot of second-generation pilots, and many of us sent the third generation to him for checkrides. He had a tremendously positively influence on pilot education and safety over the years, and having this accident as one of the final and most public part of his legacy really sucks.

don’t allow yourself to be defined by that one day of poor judgment instead of a lifetime of good judgment.
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That's the thing. You just don't know what else might be going on in a person's life. And how that may influence behavior.
One bad day. One mistake. No recourse. Another reminder of how intolerant and sometimes unforgiving flying can be to the inattentive, regardless whether deliberate or inadvertent.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’m not going to defend his actions on that day...obviously he did some stuff wrong. But this is a tough accident for me to accept. This is the guy that taught my dad and a lot of his generation to fly, gave checkrides to me and a lot of second-generation pilots, and many of us sent the third generation to him for checkrides. He had a tremendously positively influence on pilot education and safety over the years, and having this accident as one of the final and most public part of his legacy really sucks.

don’t allow yourself to be defined by that one day of poor judgment instead of a lifetime of good judgment.
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Sorry I cannot agree here. Yea I get it that I don't know this guy like you did, but it's not a case of having one bad day. As pilots we don't get a a pass on having one day of bad judgement. He had no less than 6 people tell him that he should not go, his behavior at best is an indication of a systemic bias against any opinion counter to his. I don't think this was the first time he behaved like this, my guess was that this guy did things his way no matter what.

I feel sorry for the women passenger, she had no idea what was going on. The CFI in the right seat checked out altogether, not sure what his story was.
 
MauleSkinner said:
don’t allow yourself to be defined by that one day of poor judgment instead of a lifetime of good judgment.
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Yup, this is too true. Unfortunately that's a sad fact of life. You can be the best "X" and have one off day and people will remember you for that one bad day.

Jumpmaster said:
get-home-itis
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This was more than that.. at least based on the video it seems like he was flip, dismissive, and downright rude to multiple people who tried to save his life that day. This goes beyond "gee, there's a convective sigmet but I can see blue sky and I got a meeting tomorrow and don't want to disappoint my wife, renting a car would suck, I have nexrad, I'll pick my way through"

GRG55 said:
One bad day. One mistake. No recourse. Another reminder of how intolerant and sometimes unforgiving flying can be to the inattentive, regardless whether deliberate or inadvertent.
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Which is what I like about some of these hobbies like flying.. in a world defined by safety and the lack of any discomfort aviation is a place where you don't get to have a "safe space" .. when you're flying your entire existence is very closely tied to your actions and abilities.

Larry Korona said:
As pilots we don't get a a pass on having one day of bad judgement
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Yeah.. I agree, in principle. But I don't think MauleSkinner was giving him a pass.. the way I read it he was lamenting that this is how an otherwise great aviator will be remembered
 
Kenny Phillips said:
If the airplane truly cartwheeled there would be some great forces on those elevators.
I have met "that" pilot, as I'm sure we all have. They exist with 250 hours, and 25,000 hours.
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SKYGODS.....
The pilot who has done everything, been everywhere, flown everything, has 3X,000 hours, and isn't afraid to let you know that. "
They drip arrogance from every pore.

I think we have all known a few of those, over the years.
Some get through it all without a scratch, some, like a Delta pilot I know, has paid to have his Pitts rebuilt three times.
 
Larry Korona said:
Sorry I cannot agree here. Yea I get it that I don't know this guy like you did, but it's not a case of having one bad day. As pilots we don't get a a pass on having one day of bad judgement. He had no less than 6 people tell him that he should not go, his behavior at best is an indication of a systemic bias against any opinion counter to his. I don't think this was the first time he behaved like this, my guess was that this guy did things his way no matter what.

I feel sorry for the women passenger, she had no idea what was going on. The CFI in the right seat checked out altogether, not sure what his story was.
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Accident Cascade....
It is never just one factor that causes a crash, it is a cascade of failures and bad decision making. That failure cascade is pretty clear in this case.
 
FlyingElvii said:
SKYGODS.....
The pilot who has done everything, been everywhere, flown everything, has 3X,000 hours, and isn't afraid to let you know that. "
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Got a bit curious. Took my homebuilt accident database, and split it into two. First one included all accidents where the PIC had 20,000 or more hours. Got 140 hits (out of ~4,200 accidents). Then I generated another set where the pilots had 40 to 100 hours. This gave me 148 hits.

About 30% of the 20,000+ hour accidents occurred due to Pilot Miscontrol (stick and rudder errors vs. judgement issues). Over half (51%) of the low-time accidents involved Miscontrol. Here's a breakdown as to the actual number of accidents.

_____________________|_40-100 Hours_|_20K+ hours_|
__Total Mishandling__|______76______|_____42_____|
________Stall________|______22______|______6_____|
________Winds________|______16______|______6_____|
_Takeoff Directional_|_______5______|______2_____|
_Landing Directional_|_______5______|_____18_____|
___Any Directional___|______10______|_____20_____|
___Bad Flare/Bounce__|______14______|______6_____|
__System Management__|_______5______|______2_____|
_______Approach______|_______6______|______2_____|

Note that the number of accidents is about the same (148 vs. 140), so comparing numbers (vs. percentages) directly is a decent way to do it.

The low-time pilots are obviously stalling more than the high-time set. But look at the "Landing Directional" cases. These are where the pilot loses directional control on landing...typically a ground loop. THREE TIMES AS MANY cases for the high-time crowd.

Eighteen cases. Fourteen were taildraggers. You think maybe driving that 747 from Apathy to Tedium every five days maybe doesn't prepare you for flying a taildragger....? :)

Three out of the five low-time cases were taildraggers.

BTW, 21 out of the 140 high-time cases had 30,000 hours or more.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Larry Korona said:
He had no less than 6 people tell him that he should not go, his behavior at best is an indication of a systemic bias against any opinion counter to his.
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Fortunately the cockpit isn’t a democracy. If I didn’t fly every time people told me that something was too dangerous on their personal scale, I’d have spent a lot of time on the ground that I didn’t have to. If I had flown every time other people said it should be done, I’d be dead. In some cases, it was the same people on the same day telling me I should do the same trip their way instead of mine.

the problem isn’t not taking the advice of others...the problem is separating the wheat from the chaff, and applying the appropriate portions to the decision.
 
Some times it is low timers that do not want to hear advice from the experienced folks.

I have met a few of those out here in Gallup when the DA is 10,000.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Fortunately the cockpit isn’t a democracy. If I didn’t fly every time people told me that something was too dangerous on their personal scale, I’d have spent a lot of time on the ground that I didn’t have to. If I had flown every time other people said it should be done, I’d be dead. In some cases, it was the same people on the same day telling me I should do the same trip their way instead of mine.

the problem isn’t not taking the advice of others...the problem is separating the wheat from the chaff, and applying the appropriate portions to the decision.
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Sounds as if he was given a whole loaf of bread, and ignored it. High-time Lakers advising a low-timer, but one with tens of thousands of hours? Preposterous!
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Sounds as if he was given a whole loaf of bread, and ignored it. High-time Lakers advising a low-timer, but one with tens of thousands of hours? Preposterous!
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Maybe...but I’d still say it’s not a matter of “doing what you’re told”, but determining that the advice is credible.
 
Zeldman said:
low timers
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You know.. maybe some of the very low timers, and very high timers.. fall victim to the same thing. The low timer is on confidence high with all this book knowledge fresh on the brain.. he's invincible! In the mean time, the high timer has been around the world and doesn't need anyone else telling him what to do, he's seen it all.. he invincible! In the one case, the POH says he can make the 10K DA day (even though he's never done it and has 83 hrs), and in the other case he's done this takeoff hundreds of times before and doesn't need to worry about minutiae like DA.
 
wanttaja said:
That's all right, I stole it myself. It's from "Mr. Roberts".

Ron Wanttaja
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No side trips to Monotony and Ennui? I just through your stinking palm tree overboard.
 
A sad story all the way around.

People age differently. Cognitive decline is a real thing as you get older. For some, it happens all at once, for others, it's gradual. Still others seemingly never experience it.

I'm no medical expert, but I've worked in an industry that tends to have older employees. There is a minority of folks who have some common traits:

Seemingly OK in the morning. "With it," and able to do their normal day-to-day. But late in the afternoon, once they get a little tired, they start to make a little less sense. They seem to struggle a little more. They get irritable, and come off as a bit of a stubborn jerk.

I can't imagine what that inner turmoil must feel like. One side of your brain can't figure out why the other side is moving so slow. It has to be the very definition of frustrating, and it's not surprising to see someone in this condition "lash out," seemingly out of nowhere.

Older pilot, a long day in the sun, challenging take-off conditions, an airplane missing an inspection panel. A crappy day where all the holes in the swiss cheese line up.
 
...and yet someone still agreed to tow them from the harbor.
 
smv said:
...and yet someone still agreed to tow them from the harbor.
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I noticed that as well.

I have very limited knowledge of sea plane operations. Is a tow from the harbor a paid service or a service provided by the FBO.?
 
Zeldman said:
I noticed that as well.

I have very limited knowledge of sea plane operations. Is a tow from the harbor a paid service or a service provided by the FBO.?
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At the Oshkosh gathering? Donno. Either way, he did not have a gun to their head and they could have simply refused. Might he have made it out on his own? Perhaps, but were I the boat driver, I would sleep a lot better at night knowing I was not a causal factor.
 
Zeldman said:
I noticed that as well.

I have very limited knowledge of sea plane operations. Is a tow from the harbor a paid service or a service provided by the FBO.?
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This seaplane base is quite busy and congested during Oshkosh week, so perhaps towing is a safety precaution to avoid engine startups at the dock?

I really enjoy going out there every time I attend OSH. The water, grass, trees, and bobbing seaplanes are a nice relief from the heat of Wittman airfield.
 
I assume the tow boat operators aren't intended to be making go/no-go decisions for other people. Although I wouldn't be surprised if someone declined to tow them out after watching everything unfold (after all, at Oshkosh I assume it's a volunteer position)?

Who knows though? Had the pilot lowered the flaps per the POH, or had the CFI noted the flaps weren't down, maybe they would have made it up and the whole thing would have just been forgotten?
 
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