KTOA - Sling stall crash at Zamperini Field, CA

[Peter Ha]

2 critically injured after small plane crashes into San Pedro field

A male pilot and his female student are in critical condition after a small plane crashed into a soccer field in northwest San Pedro Monday afternoon, authorities said. The crash was reported just …

ktla.com

A male pilot and his female student are in critical condition after a small plane crashed into a soccer field in northwest San Pedro Monday afternoon, authorities said.
The crash was reported just before 1 p.m. in the 400 block of Westmont Drive at a park named Field of Dreams, according to the Los Angeles Fire Department.
The scene is near the border with Wilmington.
The woman, who is believed to be in her 30s, was pulled out of the plane by two bystanders, while the pilot, believed to be around 45, was rescued by firefighters.
“Both patients were transported … in at least critical condition,” fire officials said.
Their ages have not been released. No one else was hurt.

 

[Jim Carpenter]

N135WT

Accident Sling Aircraft TSi N135WT, Monday 25 September 2023

On September 25, 2023, about 1250 Pacific daylight time, an experimental amateur-built Sling 4 TSI, N135WT, was substantially damaged when it was involved in an accident near San Pedro, C...

aviation-safety.net

Let's hope for a speedy recovery for the two injured.

 

[Sac Arrow]

How do we know this was caused by a stall?

 

[FlightmechH3]

Just saw the video. Surprised they weren't killed outright

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

From the article:

“NTSB officials added that there have been 79 aircraft accidents in California in 2023, with 17 of those accidents being fatalities, including in Van Nuys, Murrieta and Big Bear.”​

 

[Kenny Phillips]

How do we know this was caused by a stall?

If you just blindly say that, you'll be right most of the time. My ex's niece was murdered yesterday; if I say "the boyfriend did it" I'll likely be correct.
The look of the plane implies a rather nose-down attitude.
Most Sling 4's have a BRS, but if you stall low down it's useless.
It wouldn't be difficult to build an anti-stall system; something that stalls the horizontal stabilizer if the wing stalls.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

How do we know this was caused by a stall?

It's a limited camera aview, but I'm not seeing a ground scar from forward progress there.

Just found the video. Inside wing drops out in the turn.

Video captures moment small plane crashes on San Pedro soccer field

The pilot and one other person were brought to the hospital in “at least" critical condition.

www.foxla.com

 

[frfly172]

Hopefully they will both recover from the crash.

 

[Sac Arrow]

If you just blindly say that, you'll be right most of the time. My ex's niece was murdered yesterday; if I say "the boyfriend did it" I'll likely be correct.
The look of the plane implies a rather nose-down attitude.
Most Sling 4's have a BRS, but if you stall low down it's useless.
It wouldn't be difficult to build an anti-stall system; something that stalls the horizontal stabilizer if the wing stalls.

It's a limited camera aview, but I'm not seeing a ground scar from forward progress there.

Just found the video. Inside wing drops out in the turn.

Video captures moment small plane crashes on San Pedro soccer field

The pilot and one other person were brought to the hospital in “at least" critical condition.

www.foxla.com

Again, unless I missed something (and I might have), I didn't see anything from the OP's post to suggest a cause aside from the title.

 

[Racerx]

Saw the video and without knowing what phase of flight it looked like an attempted impossible turn. Further information seems to confirm.

"We have an engine failure, were coming in to land"

 

[Tantalum]

If you just blindly say that, you'll be right most of the time. My ex's niece was murdered yesterday; if I say "the boyfriend did it" I'll likely be correct.
The look of the plane implies a rather nose-down attitude.
Most Sling 4's have a BRS, but if you stall low down it's useless.
It wouldn't be difficult to build an anti-stall system; something that stalls the horizontal stabilizer if the wing stalls.

Wasn't this the idea behind the Ercoupe? And an apparent advantage of most canard designs

 

[Tantalum]

impossible turn

do the CFIs here teach this? Not until recently did I try this with another CFI on board and there's no way that a typical dirty club trainer 172 or PA-28 are making it back to the runway if you pull the power at 500'

 

[skyking3286]

To do the impossible turn it's simple math. A rate of climb has to exceed the rate of descent and then have enough energy at the end to line up with the runway, to flare and land. Most lightly powered planes fail the math when you add the three second startle. An Aeronca can climb at 350 fpm but glide is 500 to 700 fpm down on final.
Once you know that, it's straight ahead and a minor turn to avoid things.

Sad to see how little crush zone there is in the wreckage. The engine is pushed into the front seats.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Wasn't this the idea behind the Ercoupe? And an apparent advantage of most canard designs

The Ercoupe had limited "up" elevator, and originally had coupled ailerons and rudder.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Wasn't this the idea behind the Ercoupe? And an apparent advantage of most canard designs

And the Staggerwing.

 

[Racerx]

do the CFIs here teach this? Not until recently did I try this with another CFI on board and there's no way that a typical dirty club trainer 172 or PA-28 are making it back to the runway if you pull the power at 500'

And yet people continue to try. Pick the best spot in your field of view...if you dont already have a plan like you should on takeoff.

 

[flightwriter]

And yet people continue to try. Pick the best spot in your field of view...if you dont already have a plan like you should on takeoff.

They were heading back to TOA after the demo flight when they reported the engine failure. The recorded flight track indicates they made a descending left 270 to fly east before eventually turning south toward the field, like they tried to fly it as a normal pattern but lost too much altitude on "base."

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www.flightradar24.com

 

[Jeff767]

What is the procedure recommended by Sling for an engine failure? What is the minimum chute deployment altitude?

 

[sarangan]

They were heading back to TOA after the demo flight when they reported the engine failure. The recorded flight track indicates they made a descending left 270 to fly east before eventually turning south toward the field, like they tried to fly it as a normal pattern but lost too much altitude on "base."

Live Flight Tracker - Real-Time Flight Tracker Map | Flightradar24

The world’s most popular flight tracker. Track planes in real-time on our flight tracker map and get up-to-date flight status & airport information.

www.flightradar24.com

That soccer field looks like it is at best 1000 ft long from fence to fence. I don't know if a Sling can land in such a small space. There aren't any other better options either. It appears the pilot was too high when he was initially abeam the touchdown point, then decided to do a 270 to lose altitude, and lost too much. This is a tough one. Not many options.

 

[Palmpilot]

To do the impossible turn it's simple math. A rate of climb has to exceed the rate of descent and then have enough energy at the end to line up with the runway, to flare and land....

And that math needs to be done before takeoff. By the way, it's climb and descent angles that count, not the rates. The wind and density altitude factor into that. The length of the runway also matters. One instructor I know studied the mathematics of this subject quite extensively, as well as doing a lot of experimentation. I briefly summarized some of what he taught here:

Impossible Turn Practice

I've been reading and seeing a lot about the impossible turn coming from AOPA the last week or so. I wouldn't say they were promoting it but in my training this was never even brought up as a possibility to practice. What do people here think about this? I have to say I'm with the guy in the...

www.pilotsofamerica.com

He used a paper by David F. Rogers, of the U.S. Naval Academy, as his starting point:

http://www.campbells.org/BIG_FILES/airplaneImpossibleTurn.pdf

This forum has had a lot of discussion of this subject over the years:

Search results for query: impossible+turn

www.pilotsofamerica.com

 

[Salty]

Anybody know what power plant it was?

 

[skyking3286]

Another thing apparently they don’t teach: Never turn away from a forced landing spot.

 

[Salty]

Another thing apparently they don’t teach: Never turn away from a forced landing spot.

Apparently I was never taught that. I have no idea what it means.

 

[flightwriter]

Anybody know what power plant it was?

Rotax 915is

Sling TSi

Like its predecessors, the Sling TSi has been critically acclaimed for its capabilities, effortless handling and all-round functionality.

slingaircraft.com

 

[skyking3286]

Another thing apparently they don’t teach: Never turn away from a forced landing spot.

"Apparently I was never taught that. I have no idea what it means."

When setting up for a forced landing, never turn away from the field you are aiming for. You can easily find yourself outside of gliding range. And the field at your back really shortens the time you have to find power lines, ditches and the like. So you always keep the field in front of you, slip or S-turn if you have to. . . but never turn your back on
the field you are setting up to land on. Circle over the top of it as the center point of the circle is keeping it in front of you, going into the traffic pattern approach is keeping it in front of you. But to turn away from the field to lose altitude is a poor choice.

Another thing is that you need to arrive at your forced landing location ideally at traffic pattern altitude and set up your landing that way. Think you have a five mile glide range? That is to the deck. That isn't right, because you have no room to maneuver and set up with the proper airspeed and decisions to land. So think of the field not as GL but 1000 AGL.

Too many people die trying to stretch a glide - arriving too low at the field or turning away from it, having the winds blow you away and then trying to get back to the field.

Hence, always keep it in front of you and never turn away from it. So in this case, the maneuvers to set up didn't help them.

the way, it's climb and descent angles that count, not the rates. The wind and density altitude factor into that.

My point is to move us beyond theory that we can't think about with an engine out and trying to be practical. We can't figure out angles in flight. But we do know rate of climb and rate of descent. While I admit this isn't exact, it is an excellent way to at least figure if you are in the ballpark. Climb at 500 fpm up, glide at 700 fpm down, you aren't going to make it regardless of charts, DA, winds and angles. My climb and glide are best at the same at 57 mph or so. 400 fpm up and 600 fpm glide. So you should pre-plan for something other than a turn back. A stall will kill. Trying to stretch a glide will kill. An article in Sport Aviation made this point and was convincing. Simple and easy to figure out. I think that CFIs that instruct in the impossible turn are this generations CFIs that tried to do single engine multi ops with the engine actually turned off in the 1950s. They killed a lot of people below Vmc before the training changed.

 

[Palmpilot]

Any calculations need to be done on the ground prior to takeoff, not in the air after the engine quits. The CFI who taught me about this came up with ways of calculating what climb rate you need in order to make a turnback possible, and then watching to see if you get that during climbout. If you don't, then a turnback is unlikely to succeed. I provided more information about this at the first link in my previous post. He didn't say anything about shutting down an engine on a twin that I ever heard.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

Apparently I was never taught that. I have no idea what it means.

If you see a spot that may be suitable, stop looking for better. Concentrate on the best landing possible.

 

[ChopAndDrop]

My climb and glide are best at the same at 57 mph or so. 400 fpm up and 600 fpm glide. So you should pre-plan for something other than a turn back. A stall will kill. Trying to stretch a glide will kill

Yeah, unless you already climb at Vx and are otherwise turning to stay close to the airport (eg on Downwind) when it happens, you make a good point your climb angle is shallower than your glide angle so it’s impossible to go back.

Any calculations need to be done on the ground prior to takeoff, not in the air after the engine quits. The CFI who taught me about this came up with ways of calculating what climb rate you need in order to make a turnback possible, and then watching to see if you get that during climbout.

old-timers glider trick that I wish everyone would know:
Hold your hand out as far as your arms will reach. Put index fingers on the horizon, count number of fingers down below the horizon, this can give you a quick approximation “can I glide to that location”. In my glider (30:1) it’s “3 fingers down from the horizon” (from top of my index finger to my ring finger). In my powered airplane (9:1) it’s a full fist height down below the horizon: hand in a fist, with my thumb on top at the horizon line, the bottom of my pinky indicates how far down my best glide is.

If you see a spot that may be suitable, stop looking for better. Concentrate on the best landing possible.

A while ago; someone at our glider club died when their crashed their glider into the busy highway and hit a concrete barrier. Huge flat farm fields on both sides of the highway, but for some reason they were fixated on landing on pavement.