KSNA Departure Confusion

SLOWR426

SLOWR426

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SLOWR426
I’m a low time PP in a rural area in California and have had a problem in the L.A. area a few times now, while departing KSNA (class C) under VFR flight following via the Coastal Route (heading N.W.). I don’t seem to have this problem departing any other Class-C airport, or any other class-D in the LA basin either.

I get my departure and taxi clearance. Departure clearance is usually after departure fly heading 220 at or below X,XXX, then contact Center on 1xx.xxx. Makes total sense. So I’m cleared to takeoff on 20R by tower, and I take off. At about 200-300ft AGL, while managing my complex aircraft, tower contacts me, presumably to tell me to switch to the pre-designed Center frequency. But NO! Tower wants something else, like there is some kind of mandatory verbiage we need to exchange. Tower wants my present altitude for some reason. Then somehow I satisfy tower - I have no idea how - and they have me switch to Center and everything is ducky for the rest of the flight.

What does tower need me to say? Shouldn’t they already have my departure clearance in the computer, know my required altitudes, headings, etc.? And they just cleared me for T/O 30seconds earlier; shouldn’t they know my altitude, with their eyeballs or radar or ADS-B?

All other Class-C towers don’t seem to require this verbal exchange. After T/O they simply ask me to switch frequencies. Or possibly they alter my clearance a bit due to traffic. I confess I haven’t flown into many recently. But in the past SBA, FAT.

What is this dialogue that SNA tower needs? Anyone know? Or have the phone number for SNA tower so I can ask them?

thanks much
 
So all they wanted is for you to say altitude? That is fairly common with many Class C even some Class D with radar. Usually just to make sure their numbers for alt match up to yours.
 
Sounds like they are verifying your altitude for their radar display. Just tell them when they ask " Nxxxxx climbing 300 for 2,500".
 
SLOWR426 said:
I’m a low time PP in a rural area in California and have had a problem in the L.A. area a few times now, while departing KSNA (class C) under VFR flight following via the Coastal Route (heading N.W.). I don’t seem to have this problem departing any other Class-C airport, or any other class-D in the LA basin either.

I get my departure and taxi clearance. Departure clearance is usually after departure fly heading 220 at or below X,XXX, then contact Center on 1xx.xxx. Makes total sense. So I’m cleared to takeoff on 20R by tower, and I take off. At about 200-300ft AGL, while managing my complex aircraft, tower contacts me, presumably to tell me to switch to the pre-designed Center frequency. But NO! Tower wants something else, like there is some kind of mandatory verbiage we need to exchange. Tower wants my present altitude for some reason. Then somehow I satisfy tower - I have no idea how - and they have me switch to Center and everything is ducky for the rest of the flight.

What does tower need me to say? Shouldn’t they already have my departure clearance in the computer, know my required altitudes, headings, etc.? And they just cleared me for T/O 30seconds earlier; shouldn’t they know my altitude, with their eyeballs or radar or ADS-B?

All other Class-C towers don’t seem to require this verbal exchange. After T/O they simply ask me to switch frequencies. Or possibly they alter my clearance a bit due to traffic. I confess I haven’t flown into many recently. But in the past SBA, FAT.

What is this dialogue that SNA tower needs? Anyone know? Or have the phone number for SNA tower so I can ask them?

thanks much
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Controllers must verify Mode C read outs before using them for separation. You being VFR in Class C, 500 feet is what they’d need if vertical separation was going to be needed to be applied. I to don’t recall Towers routinely doing it. That John Wayne Tower may do it routinely might be ‘something happened’ once. There was a loss of separation incident that got pinned on a Controller because he used vertical separation without having verified Mode C first. So now they all may be doing it routinely. Or just him and that’s who you got that day. Really should be no thang. They say “say altitude,” you push the button and say [altitude][call sign.] If you’re a little busy ‘aviating’ there’s nothing wrong with waiting a bit until you get caught up and then pushing the button and saying your altitude.
 
SLOWR426 said:
then contact Center
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Really? You are being asked to contact "Center" at low altitude in the LA basin?

Your question has already been answered. The only unusual part is being asked by Tower rather than TRACON. It's also done in different ways, not all of them as explicit as "say altitude."

But I just happened to notice this "center" thing.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Really? You are being asked to contact "Center" at low altitude in the LA basin?

Your question has already been answered. The only unusual part is being asked by Tower rather than TRACON. It's also done in different ways, not all of them as explicit as "say altitude."

But I just happened to notice this "center" thing.
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Probably means TRACON. I've not had tower ask for altitude, they usually kick me over to departure pretty quick, and my initial contact with departure is "...1800 climbing 3000."
 
EdFred said:
Probably means TRACON.
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I suspect you are right. Just inexperience.
I've not had tower ask for altitude, they usually kick me over to departure pretty quick, and my initial contact with departure is "...1800 climbing 3000."
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I think Tower doing the altitude verification before the handoff happens, but it's not that common. Probably has to do with the way Tower and TRACON choose to coordinate in the area. Having been cleared to land by Approach and to airports where Tower services and TRACON have been combined at times, I know there are plenty of variations out there. I figure I haven't seen most of them.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Really? You are being asked to contact "Center" at low altitude in the LA basin?

Your question has already been answered. The only unusual part is being asked by Tower rather than TRACON. It's also done in different ways, not all of them as explicit as "say altitude."

But I just happened to notice this "center" thing.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Some Phraseology was changed not that long ago where they say what altitude they see and ask you to verify it. I’ll look it up later.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. Some Phraseology was changed not that long ago where they say what altitude they see and ask you to verify it. I’ll look it up later.
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Interesting. I think heard "verify at [altitude]" as opposed to "say altitude" for the very first time last month (I remember chuckling to myself about it) but I didn't think it was new. I got curious and looked back a couple of years. I did not go all the way back, but it's been there since at least 2010's 7110.65T
 
I don’t know that airspace at all. I will say during this reduced traffic/Covid staffing at SOME facilities, they have things combined that you wouldn’t usually see. Especially at some class C’s where the controllers are rated in tower and TRACON. We flew out of ROA not long ago where clearance/ground/local/approach/departure were all the same guy. Could be something like that or an LOA where tower can/should verify altitude for radar sep.
 
Radar Contact said:
I don’t know that airspace at all. I will say during this reduced traffic/Covid staffing at SOME facilities, they have things combined that you wouldn’t usually see. Especially at some class C’s where the controllers are rated in tower and TRACON. We flew out of ROA not long ago where clearance/ground/local/approach/departure were all the same guy. Could be something like that or an LOA where tower can/should verify altitude for radar sep.
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Exactly. We like to think there are hard lines separating functions, but they are fuzzier than that.
 
Departing TEB VFR tower will ask your altitude as well. No different than being ask it by departure, and it was never a big challenge to look at my altimeter.
 
VFR departures from Class B and C airports generally get radar identified by tower - likely because of the rules involving VFR flight in those types of airspace. The exact same things happen at KOAK and KMRY, two other Class C's I've departed VFR from. I've not departed KFAT VFR (I've done IFR), which I'm guessing is where you usually depart a Class C, so YMMV.
 
Radar Contact said:
I don’t know that airspace at all. I will say during this reduced traffic/Covid staffing at SOME facilities, they have things combined that you wouldn’t usually see. Especially at some class C’s where the controllers are rated in tower and TRACON. We flew out of ROA not long ago where clearance/ground/local/approach/departure were all the same guy. Could be something like that or an LOA where tower can/should verify altitude for radar sep.
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The TRACON is in San Diego at Miramar, KNKX. Before the creation of SOCAL Approach it was Coast Approach located at MCAS El Toro. It's never been an up/down.
 
luvflyin said:
The TRACON is in San Diego at Miramar, KNKX. Before the creation of SOCAL Approach it was Coast Approach located at MCAS El Toro. It's never been an up/down.
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SCT is NOT at Miramar. The building is located near KNKX, but is an FAA facility and not operated jointly at all (other than SCT handling Miramar's airspace)
 
N1120A said:
SCT is NOT at Miramar. The building is located near KNKX, but is an FAA facility and not operated jointly at all (other than SCT handling Miramar's airspace)
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It's on Miramar. The FAA required that they have their own gate and gate guards and it was to be fenced off from the rest of the Air Station before they selected that as the site for SOCAL. The process of creating SOCAL had been going on for years before the final decision was made on Miramar. San Diego Approach was not one of the original four to be combined up. San Diego Approach, which was on Miramar didn't get moved over until long after the original four, Los Angeles, Coast, Ontario and Burbank did. The FAA had been getting away from having their Approach Control's being located on Military bases which was pretty common many moons ago.. To many problems with getting people to and from work on time and lots of overtime expense when the base would have security issues or have exercises where they would stop and inspect every vehicle.
 
luvflyin said:
It's on Miramar. The FAA required that they have their own gate and gate guards and it was to be fenced off from the rest of the Air Station before they selected that as the site for SOCAL. The process of creating SOCAL had been going on for years before the final decision was made on Miramar. San Diego Approach was not one of the original four to be combined up. San Diego Approach, which was on Miramar didn't get moved over until long after the original four, Los Angeles, Coast, Ontario and Burbank did. The FAA had been getting away from having their Approach Control's being located on Military bases which was pretty common many moons ago.. To many problems with getting people to and from work on time and lots of overtime expense when the base would have security issues or have exercises where they would stop and inspect every vehicle.
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The land might be owned by the federal government, but it is definitely not on the base. It is on a completely separate pad off Kearny Villa Road, next to the 15.
 
Troll of the week? First time poster in Pilot Training departing a VERY busy Class C. Hmmm..
 
N1120A said:
The land might be owned by the federal government, but it is definitely not on the base. It is on a completely separate pad off Kearny Villa Road, next to the 15.
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Yeah. Maybe I should have said ‘was.’ The dirt it sits on was NAS Miramar when it was built. Since then the boundaries on the map may show it outside of MCAS Miramar.
 
N1120A said:
VFR departures from Class B and C airports generally get radar identified by tower - likely because of the rules involving VFR flight in those types of airspace. The exact same things happen at KOAK and KMRY, two other Class C's I've departed VFR from. I've not departed KFAT VFR (I've done IFR), which I'm guessing is where you usually depart a Class C, so YMMV.
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Must be a regional thing because I've flown out of I don't know how many Class Cs (none in CA though) and the altitude is always verified by approach, never tower.
 
Around here departing class B typically goes something like:

TWR: Navion 5327K Fly Runway Heading Runway 19C cleared for takeoff.

a few seconds after you're in the air you typically get;

TWR: Navion 5327K Contact Departure.

You flip the switch on the radio and call in:

27K: Potomac Departure, Navion 5327K 1200 climbing 3000.
PCT: Navion 5327K Potomac Departure, Radar Contact, Resume Own Navigation (or get a heading).

This isn't surprising if you learn IFR procedures. IFR pretty much runs the same way.
 
KSJC san Jose (class C) usually asks to say altitude. Typical conversation with tower on departure goes something like this:

Tower: N89EL, wind xxx @ x, cleared for takeoff runway 31L. On departure turn left heading 180. Caution wake turbulence for the 737 that just departed the parallel.

Me: Cleared for takeoff 31L, left turn 180.

Tower: 9EL, say altitude (after I take off)

Me: 400 feet, 9EL

Tower: Roger, contact NORCAL. Have a good flight.

Me: 9EL, switching.

Lots of variations to the above, of course, depending upon where I’m going, wind, traffic, etc. However, 9 times out of 10, at least, they ask for altitude when I’m around 400-600 feet. Always assumed it was to confirm that their radar, my mode C, and my altimeter setting were in agreement.
 
Rgbeard said:
add in “low time pilot” and “complex aircraft”



mine goes to eleven.
Click to expand...
I flew complex aircraft as a low time pilot. And I did it in very busy airspace.
 
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