Know anyone with Coronavirus?

[Palmpilot]

Well, for one their case numbers are now so low that the risk of catching the disease from community spread is almost nil. At that point, there is little need to restrict activities like restaurants or church services. In Norway for example, the current guidance is against wearing masks, and the health agency has a very good evidence based rationale of why that is.
The cases that do occur in those countries are mostly imported from endemic areas and when outbreaks happen, they tend to be in settings like slaughterhouses, cucumber farms and congreate living facilities.

So they're benefiting from earlier actions that they took?

 

[weilke]

So they're benefiting from earlier actions that they took?

'If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding.'

Yes, the key is that they DID take those actions rather than coming up with 20 explanations of why they shouldn't. Now covid is just another pathogen that can be controlled with targeted public health measures rather than community wide mitigation. If I walk on the street, I usually dont worry about catching multi-drug resistant TB either. It exists, but it doesn't spread in the community.

 

[Morgan3820]

To be honest, many Asian nation individuals think of wearing masks as a public responsibility and that is why you would see any person who may be sick wearing a mask out in public long before this pandemic. Those people are being compassionate about their fellow countrymen and trying to prevent the spread of any virus they have to others. In the future, we should all wear a mask if we have a cold or flu and it will indeed prevent unnecessary deaths/discomfort of others. But I guess again only those that have the fortitude to wear a mask will be nice people to others (like my 4 year old).

I don’t care about Asia. And your four-year-old is wearing the mask because you told him to. If you are concerned about catching this, you wear a mask that prevents you from getting it.

 

[Everskyward]

I don’t care about Asia.

Asia was only mentioned because they did a better job of controlling the virus than we did. Someone speculated on a reason. You can like it or not; believe it or not. Many countries in Asia have more government authority than we have here. Remember scenes of the Wuhan lockdown where they actually locked people in buildings? The people also seem to be more compliant, either because it is their culture to think more collectively, or they are afraid of their governments.

 

[overdrive148]

Nonsensical and not even an accurate analogy.

To be fair, your quarter and nickle example aren't a good analogy either - these are American lives, not pocket change.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

I don’t care about Asia. And your four-year-old is wearing the mask because you told him to. If you are concerned about catching this, you wear a mask that prevents you from getting it.

Or anyone else? Sounds like a familiar tone coming from certain individuals in the country. Narcissism runs deep among our leaders.
And yes, my 4 year old listens better than many adults and is quite caring about others. Trump finally told everyone to wear a mask (when appropriate i.e. anytime you cannot stay 6 feet away from someone else - which means any normal sidewalk), it just took him 6 months to do so.

Asia was only mentioned because they did a better job of controlling the virus than we did. Someone speculated on a reason. You can like it or not; believe it or not. Many countries in Asia have more government authority than we have here. Remember scenes of the Wuhan lockdown where they actually locked people in buildings? The people also seem to be more compliant, either because it is their culture to think more collectively, or they are afraid of their governments.

Asia was mentioned because they wore facemasks long before there was COVID or any mandates from the State. They wear masks in Japan on a daily basis if ill because they have respect for those people that are seriously affected by the common flu strains.

 

[EdFred]

To be fair, your quarter and nickle example aren't a good analogy either - these are American lives, not pocket change.

These are American lives of people (who for the most part) are close to or past the expected average life expectancy anyway. That is pocket change. It's not like this thing is wiping out the entire 18-65 working populace. I mean we are hell bent on saving people that from an actuarial standpoint *are* pocket change. "But, but, but, I my 82 year old grandmother with emphysema might die!" Dude, she's 82, and has emphysema, that isn't living.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Mentioning it is far different than the equivalent of calling your mechanic an idiot and incompetent without being able to tell him exactly what he should have done differently and helping him solve the issue. If you're going to berate him, you DO need to know what you're talking about. You actually made a decent analogy. When you fix a car, there is no guarantee that it will remain fixed... systems interact, fixing one thing might cause something else to fail down the line, blah blah.
Case in point... My '88 SL had been running poorly, but driveable, for a few years. One mechanic seemed to have fixed the issue, but it would occasionally stall when coming to a stop. Another shop, a year later, found a ton of vacuum leaks and replaced those lines and gaskets. After that, the car wouldn't run at all. Turns out, the previous mechanic had goosed the K-Jet timing to get the car to run without fixing the underlying problem. The more recent mechanic, AFTER fixing the vacuum issues, then proceeded to properly adjust the K-Jet fuel injection system, and the car runs like a champ now.
Neither mechanic was wrong, stupid, or incompetent. The first one did a quick inexpensive bandaid that got me running and down the road until such time as I had more money (and more time), then the second one dug deep and solved the issue for good.
Finding fault, placing blame... all easy to do, and all unproductive. Finding causes and solutions... not so easy, but much more admirable.

Got it. So safe to assume since you're commenting then, that you're qualified to work as infectious disease specialist.

 

[Morgan3820]

Got it. So safe to assume since you're commenting then, that you're qualified to work as infectious disease specialist.

Just as you yourself seem to be.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Just as you yourself seem to be.

Nope. Not even close.

 

[Morgan3820]

Nope. Not even close.

Uh huh

 

[tspear]

Number 3 doesn’t explain the late split between cases and deaths. The deaths would have happened sooner back when the initial infections happened.

And as mentioned, the treatment changes haven’t made a 4 to 8 fold decrease in deaths anywhere, even the hot spots.

Triage accounts for some of it but if you remove the hot cities the death curve still falls off at the same overly high rate against cases. Testing doesn’t explain it.

The point on testing was as capacity increased, the testing delay decreased. So due to batching of reports, delayed tests...
So there are two numbers to consider. Number based on date reported and number based on date of death. The two rarely agree. I have NOT looked at the details, but from what I have seen posted elsewhere, the reported number is often artificially higher due to labs not working weekends, delayed results....

Tim

 

[weilke]

To be fair, your quarter and nickle example aren't a good analogy either - these are American lives, not pocket change.

For many who object to the effort of containing the disease, those lives are the equivalent of pocket change. They just dont care, and nobody can make them to.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

This virus will not kill everyone, and the people we are losing aren't even critical parts of the economy. If anything, losing them is going to HELP.

Wow. That sums it up right there. It is *entirely* about short-term economic performance.

Let me tell you, there are older people who are getting this who have a value to this economy that you cannot fathom. Because this is a public forum I need to be vague, but a friend of mine got this and got it bad. They got it through no fault of their own. They are still dealing with it. This person has selflessly done more to serve as a mentor and role model for young people than anyone else I know.

Apparently losing decades of knowledge and experience times tens of thousands of people has no value to the economy. Even those who recover, regardless of age, may forever be limited in the physical activities they can safely do.

Put on a damn mask and stop acting like a toddler. Yes, I'm angry, it is personal for me now.

 

[Morgan3820]

Wow. That sums it up right there. It is *entirely* about short-term economic performance.

Let me tell you, there are older people who are getting this who have a value to this economy that you cannot fathom. Because this is a public forum I need to be vague, but a friend of mine got this and got it bad. They got it through no fault of their own. They are still dealing with it. This person has selflessly done more to serve as a mentor and role model for young people than anyone else I know.

Apparently losing decades of knowledge and experience times tens of thousands of people has no value to the economy. Even those who recover, regardless of age, may forever be limited in the physical activities they can safely do.

Put on a damn mask and stop acting like a toddler. Yes, I'm angry, it is personal for me now.

Then isolate the old and vulnerable.

 

[Palmpilot]

For many who object to the effort of containing the disease, those lives are the equivalent of pocket change. They just dont care, and nobody can make them to.

I've seen enough interviews with medical personnel to be sympathetic to the extreme demands and stress that this is putting on them in hard-hit areas, too.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

Then isolate the old and vulnerable.

And everyone with lungs? Or just those overweight (70 million), diabetic (34.2 million), coronary artery disease (18.2 million), cancer (1.8 million/yr)? Maybe we just have all the smart people who will act in the greater good come up to the North East and send those wanting more "freedom" down South.

Or we just isolate everyone who won't wear a mask. Kinda like we isolate people who break laws that are for the greater good.

Why don't we let you run around naked through the streets and playgrounds too? I mean, you were born that way, so you are not really free unless we all allow you to be naked in the grocery store, right? Oh wait....we have laws that protect the greater good, so do that and you end up in jail. Guess we don't live in a free country after all.

 

[EdFred]

Wow. That sums it up right there. It is *entirely* about short-term economic performance.

Let me tell you, there are older people who are getting this who have a value to this economy that you cannot fathom. Because this is a public forum I need to be vague, but a friend of mine got this and got it bad. They got it through no fault of their own. They are still dealing with it. This person has selflessly done more to serve as a mentor and role model for young people than anyone else I know.

Apparently losing decades of knowledge and experience times tens of thousands of people has no value to the economy. Even those who recover, regardless of age, may forever be limited in the physical activities they can safely do.

Put on a damn mask and stop acting like a toddler. Yes, I'm angry, it is personal for me now.

It's not about short term. It's actually about long haul.

As far as it being no fault of their own....Did they stay home and not go out at all? Did they let no one in their house? If they left the house, or let anyone into their house, then sorry it is not no fault of their own. Unless someone threw a coronatov cocktail through their window that explode all over them, they played a a role in THEIR OWN HEALTH.

 

[EdFred]

And everyone with lungs? Or just those overweight (70 million), diabetic (34.2 million), coronary artery disease (18.2 million), cancer (1.8 million/yr)? Maybe we just have all the smart people who will act in the greater good come up to the North East and send those wanting more "freedom" down South.

Or we just isolate everyone who won't wear a mask. Kinda like we isolate people who break laws that are for the greater good.

Why don't we let you run around naked through the streets and playgrounds too? I mean, you were born that way, so you are not really free unless we all allow you to be naked in the grocery store, right? Oh wait....we have laws that protect the greater good, so do that and you end up in jail. Guess we don't live in a free country after all.

Yes, PROTECT YOURSELF. The only one responsible for YOU is YOU. I assume since you are pilot you don't have a caregiver) I am not making my health your responsibility, don't foist yours upon me. Why is this so hard to understand?

 

[weilke]

I've seen enough interviews with medical personnel to be sympathetic to the extreme demands and stress that this is putting on them in hard-hit areas, too.

In MD, this killed 0.7% of the nursing home staff who got the disease. This as close to a cross-sectional study as you can get, the state went around and PCR tested everyone. Those were working age adults, 18-65. Someone has to take care of the patients, I always wonder what the callous jerk faction here proposes to do, just abandon the nursing homes alltogether and leave the residents to their own devices ?

 

[Juliet Hotel]

Yes, PROTECT YOURSELF. The only one responsible for YOU is YOU. I assume since you are pilot you don't have a caregiver) I am not making my health your responsibility, don't foist yours upon me. Why is this so hard to understand?

So I guess we should eliminate drunk driving laws then too. Same with speed limits.

 

[EdFred]

So I guess we should eliminate drunk driving laws then too. Same with speed limits.

Disingenuous attempt at best and you know it. However to play your nonsensical game, I don't drive after the bars close down.

 

[Salty]

Wow. That sums it up right there. It is *entirely* about short-term economic performance.

Let me tell you, there are older people who are getting this who have a value to this economy that you cannot fathom. Because this is a public forum I need to be vague, but a friend of mine got this and got it bad. They got it through no fault of their own. They are still dealing with it. This person has selflessly done more to serve as a mentor and role model for young people than anyone else I know.

Apparently losing decades of knowledge and experience times tens of thousands of people has no value to the economy. Even those who recover, regardless of age, may forever be limited in the physical activities they can safely do.

Put on a damn mask and stop acting like a toddler. Yes, I'm angry, it is personal for me now.

It's been personal, and I've been angry since the first lock-down, so do I win?

 

[overdrive148]

Yes, PROTECT YOURSELF. The only one responsible for YOU is YOU. I assume since you are pilot you don't have a caregiver) I am not making my health your responsibility, don't foist yours upon me. Why is this so hard to understand?

If it was as easy as just protecting yourself it wouldn't be an issue. The issue is that essentially everyone requires human contact to live, and the more people that have it makes it more likely for the people who are susceptible to get it and be killed by it. It's not about you and I am blown away that more people don't understand this.

It's an exceptional situation (a pandemic), its going to require exceptional measures (wearing a mask and social distancing) but it's not going to last forever. Right now it's about damage control until we can understand more about it, slow the spread, and get a safe vaccine. And then we start moving back towards "normality".

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Did they stay home and not go out at all? Did they let no one in their house? If they left the house, or let anyone into their house, then sorry it is not no fault of their own.

This person was as careful as they could reasonably be, but not everyone lives in or can afford a situation where they can prevent others from inadvertently bring it home, asymptomatically. That is the entire point of everyone working as a team to prevent community spread.

I don't understand, at all, why wearing a mask is seen as such a burden. I'm hardly a picture of ultimate fitness, but I have no problem wearing a surgical mask, constantly, on an hours-long hike. It. Is. Not. A. Burden.

 

[EdFred]

In MD, this killed 0.7% of the nursing home staff who got the disease. This as close to a cross-sectional study as you can get, the state went around and PCR tested everyone. Those were working age adults, 18-65. Someone has to take care of the patients, I always wonder what the callous jerk faction here proposes to do, just abandon the nursing homes alltogether and leave the residents to their own devices ?

Seeing my grandmother in a facility, suffering from amnesia, dementia, alzheimers, and a number of other things, yeah, let it spread like wild fire. She's alive, but she isn't living. I'd a million times rather die from this than go through what she is.

 

[Salty]

This person was as careful as they could reasonably be, but not everyone lives in or can afford a situation where they can prevent others from inadvertently bring it home, asymptomatically. That is the entire point of everyone working as a team to prevent community spread.

I don't understand, at all, why wearing a mask is seen as such a burden. I'm hardly a picture of ultimate fitness, but I have no problem wearing a surgical mask, constantly, on an hours-long hike. It. Is. Not. A. Burden.

Good for you. Have a cookie. Oh wait, you'll have to wait until you are home and can take off your mask.

 

[bnt83]

So, has animal & insect transmission been definitively ruled out yet or is all the teeth mashing wasted?

 

[Jeff Oslick]

It's not about short term. It's actually about long haul.

If it was about the long haul, we would have put a nearly hard-stop on the economy, including travel, for 4-6 weeks to contain it, invested in copying the testing technology from countries that already had it instead of wasting time developing our own, put our manufacturing resource full-on making PPE back in February, and we'd be back to nearly normal right now, except people wearing $0.25 masks to mitigate inadvertent cases. Instead we'll be fumbling about, losing another 100,000+ lives while still screwing up the economy with half-assed mitigation measures, before we have a vaccine, best case scenario.

 

[EdFred]

If it was about the long haul, we would have put a nearly hard-stop on the economy, including travel, for 4-6 weeks to contain it, invested in copying the testing technology from countries that already had it instead of wasting time developing our own, put our manufacturing resource full-on making PPE back in February, and we'd be back to nearly normal right now, except people wearing $0.25 masks to mitigate inadvertent cases. Instead we'll be fumbling about, losing another 100,000+ lives while still screwing up the economy with half-assed mitigation measures, before we have a vaccine, best case scenario.

Pre 2020: "medicare, medicaid, SS doesn't have enough money, we can't sustain this, people are living too long."
Nature: "I can help solve that."
Now: "Noooooooooooooo, keep the burden here!"

My stance is completely different because once I hit a certain age (which I already hit), I'm eschewing all treatments that aren't a simple outpatient procedure I can pay for out of my own pocket. Let nature happen, people don't like that, but I don't want to be 90 years old and wallowing in a nursing home in my own **** for the last 5 years of my life.

 

[weilke]

So, has animal & insect transmission been definitively ruled out yet or is all the teeth mashing wasted?

Dogs can get infected but have not proven to be a reservoir. There is no known insect vector. The vector for SARS-Cov2 are humans.

(cats would gladly spread it if given the opportunity to do so)

 

[weilke]

Seeing my grandmother in a facility, suffering from amnesia, dementia, alzheimers, and a number of other things, yeah, let it spread like wild fire. She's alive, but she isn't living. I'd a million times rather die from this than go through what she is.

I'll mark you down for the 'pro-euthanasia' group.

 

[Salty]

I'll mark you down for the 'pro-euthanasia' group.

When trying to win an opponent over to your argument, it's always good to demonize them and make them feel evil through the use of hyperbolic irrational comments about them personally. They are very likely to care what you say after you do that.

 

[EdFred]

I'll mark you down for the 'pro-euthanasia' group.

Oh, I'm fully in that camp. 100%. Even have it put into my will/trust/medical requests for me. No respirators, no life support, nada.

 

[overdrive148]

Seeing my grandmother in a facility, suffering from amnesia, dementia, alzheimers, and a number of other things, yeah, let it spread like wild fire. She's alive, but she isn't living. I'd a million times rather die from this than go through what she is.

For someone who doesn't want other people making decisions on your health, you sure are for making a lot of decisions regarding other people's health conditions. Namely, just let it spread and let it kill them without their consent. Or just not wear a mask, spread it to someone else, and then let them kill someone vulnerable without their consent.

 

[danhagan]

I'll keep repeating this- I knew there was a virus in late December from my friends and colleagues on WeChat. I knew it was really bad when China cancelled all travel for Spring Festival.

Well then, this is YOUR fault for not taking care of the problem

I did offer a workable solution, The same as successful countries. Shut down for 3-4 weeks. Stop all travel. 1 person goes out once a week for food.

Hmm, thought most of that happened from April through May around here. A little "weak" on the complete shutdown, but close in my area ...

That is a workable solution now. As for inappropriate lock-downs, we have people driving around here from Texas; I hope they didn't come from the hot spots. I've never notices so many Texas plates here before the past 2 weeks.

All us Texans are in potential hot spots ... you should run and hide in the basement and peak out in January

Remember scenes of the Wuhan lockdown where they actually locked people in buildings?

Well, yeah, I remember that ... but I also remember their airports were wide open allowing travel to Europe, Italy, etc. They locked down travel within China, but never bothered to attempt to stop the spread internationally. People "escaped" prior to their big holiday ...

 

[EdFred]

For someone who doesn't want other people making decisions on your health, you sure are for making a lot of decisions regarding other people's health conditions. Namely, just let it spread and let it kill them without their consent. Or just not wear a mask, spread it to someone else, and then let them kill someone vulnerable without their consent.

No, they are responsible for protecting themselves, just as I am for protecting, or not protecting myself. I'm not waltzing through eldercare facilities spitting and coughing on people, and those friends that have said they are isolating completely I have not set foot in their houses, because they asked me not to. I'm not running around throwing small pox blankets on people, or licking peoples faces in the produce section and saying "haha, too bad sucka!" I'm not making decisions for anyone, but they are certainly being forced on me by government mandate - not talking masks here, talking businesses that are still being forced to keep their doors shut by the governor.

 

[tspear]

Let’s address a couple points ...

The “media hoax” garbage is just our media highlighting and constantly disseminating a tiny minority on repeat for ratings. Real conversations with normal people (like here) have contained none of it and really aren’t any indication of reality. Especially not back in March.

...

To long to go through. But yeah, my parents live in a deep red county. A lot of the locals their really did/do believe it was a hoax. My sister-in-law's parents are Trumpers; they posted stuff on FB how this is just a flu, it's all a hoax... The continue with that mantra.
You can see the result of that in FL, TX, AZ, AL.... Or in CA when they relaxed too fast.

Tim

 

[Everskyward]

Well, yeah, I remember that ... but I also remember their airports were wide open allowing travel to Europe, Italy, etc. They locked down travel within China, but never bothered to attempt to stop the spread internationally. People "escaped" prior to their big holiday ...

According to Ed's way of thinking, they did exactly the right thing. They protected themselves. They weren't responsible for protecting the world. Other countries should have been responsible for themselves, and banned flights from China.

 

[danhagan]

A lot of the locals their really did/do believe it was a hoax. My sister-in-law's parents are Trumpers; they posted stuff on FB how this is just a flu, it's all a hoax... The continue with that mantra. You can see the result of that in FL, TX, AZ, AL.... Or in CA when they relaxed too fast.

Wasn't aware there were a lot of Trumpers in California