KHEF ARSENAL FIVE question

[luvflyin]

IMHO
1) Climb heading 341 to 800 - this means I fly heading 341 at 800' until I do something different
2) then climbing left turn on CSN VORTAC R-056. - This means I fly to this radial on heading 341 at 800'. Upon approaching it, I make a standard rate climbing turn to fly on this radial to 2000'. ATC expects standard rate turns.
3) Cross SHRLI INT at 2000 - This means when after flying the radial and I cross SHRLI INT I need to be at 2000'

It doesn't say direct to SHRLI, so I won't.

Can't see how ATC would argue with this.

I would rethink that leveling off at 800 thing.

 

[aterpster]

IMHO
1) Climb heading 341 to 800 - this means I fly heading 341 at 800' until I do something different
2) then climbing left turn on CSN VORTAC R-056. - This means I fly to this radial on heading 341 at 800'. Upon approaching it, I make a standard rate climbing turn to fly on this radial to 2000'. ATC expects standard rate turns.
3) Cross SHRLI INT at 2000 - This means when after flying the radial and I cross SHRLI INT I need to be at 2000'

It doesn't say direct to SHRLI, so I won't.

Can't see how ATC would argue with this.

You absolutely do not level off at 800 feet. Where did you come up with that?

 

[Brad Z]

IMHO
1) Climb heading 341 to 800 - this means I fly heading 341 at 800' until I do something different
2) then climbing left turn on CSN VORTAC R-056. - This means I fly to this radial on heading 341 at 800'. Upon approaching it, I make a standard rate climbing turn to fly on this radial to 2000'. ATC expects standard rate turns.
3) Cross SHRLI INT at 2000 - This means when after flying the radial and I cross SHRLI INT I need to be at 2000'

It doesn't say direct to SHRLI, so I won't.

Can't see how ATC would argue with this.

How is flying on a heading of 341 a climbing left turn, since you're still flying runway heading?

ATC is going to start inquiring when you're gonna start your turn if you just keep trucking on a 341 heading until you pick up the 056 radial. It may not be technically wrong, but it may get their attention if they have arrivals coming down the left downwind for IAD runway 1L.

 

[WDD]

I fly runway heading until I can start a standard rate climbing turn that will put me on the radial

If I start a standard rate climbing turn as soon as I reach 800 I may turn too early and miss the radial

Otherwise it would just say runway heading to 800’ then standard rate climbing left turn direct to the fix

Thoughts from any controllers?

 

[luvflyin]

I fly runway heading until I can start a standard rate climbing turn that will put me on the radial

If I start a standard rate climbing turn as soon as I reach 800 I may turn too early and miss the radial

Otherwise it would just say runway heading to 800’ then standard rate climbing left turn direct to the fix

Thoughts from any controllers?

When you get to 800, start a climbing left turn like the damn SID says. For gawds sake don’t level off at 800 like you implied you might do in that 3 step thing above. I don’t think you really meant it like that, but it made the hairs on my neck stand up. Ok, you’re in a climbing left turn to get on the 056 radial. So do that, get on the freakin 056 radial. You’ll need to do a little situation awaring. Then a little aviatin’ and navigatin’ to get yourself on the radial.

 

[WDD]

I get that this is your strong POV. Please explain how you deal with making a climbing standard rate turning as soon as you get to 800 feet. That would turn a person short of the 56 radial.

Are you suggesting it implies a non standard rate climbing turn? If it doesn’t want you to fly the profile as depicted and fly on the redial then why is it shown and specified that way?

 

[dtuuri]

Please explain how you deal with making a climbing standard rate turning as soon as you get to 800 feet. That would turn a person short of the 56 radial.

Let me try. They want two things: 1) climb to 800 ft before turning, then 2) join the 56°R while still climbing. How would you phrase it without making a word salad?

 

[WDD]

Let me try. They want two things: 1) climb to 800 ft before turning, then 2) join the 56°R while still climbing. How would you phrase it without making a word salad?

So you are saying that you make a non standard rate turn? It’s the standard rate turn that I’m focusing on. To start turning at 800’ to heading 236 and be on the 56 radial requires a wider than standard turn.

 

[Brad Z]

This discussion though has made me realize for the first time why there’s the bravo cutout with a 1900’ floor NW of HEF…it isn’t for the ILS for 16L, it may be to accommodate this SID. Either way, you certainly don’t want to fly runway heading until intercepting the radial…you can see here why ATC would not be happy with that.

Circling back around in this comment: that 1,900' bravo cutout isn't a result of this departure procedure; you're IFR when you fly it so distinctions between class B and class E airspace are irrelevant. The notch is there most likely to accommodate the Turbine pattern altitude of 1,700, at least on the southwest side of the airport.

 

[Brad Z]

So you are saying that you make a non standard rate turn? It’s the standard rate turn that I’m focusing on. To start turning at 800’ to heading 236 and be on the 56 radial requires a wider than standard turn.

You can always stop your standard rate turn when you get to a good heading to intercept the inbound radial. You don't have to make a constant standard rate turn from departure runway heading to the inbound course of a specific radial.

 

[dtuuri]

So you are saying that you make a non standard rate turn? It’s the standard rate turn that I’m focusing on. To start turning at 800’ to heading 236 and be on the 56 radial requires a wider than standard turn.

Would a simple extra comma for @coma24 make it all better? 'Climb heading 341 to 800, then climbing left, turn on CSN VORTAC R-056. Cross SHRLI INT at 2000...."

 

[WDD]

Appreciate the non snarky replies. Thanks

 

[WDD]

You can always stop your standard rate turn when you get to a good heading to intercept the inbound radial. You don't have to make a constant standard rate turn from departure runway heading to the inbound course of a specific radial.

Interesting. CFII instilled that all turns need to be constant rate.

 

[Brad Z]

Interesting. CFII instilled that all turns need to be constant rate.

Did I suggest otherwise?

 

[WDD]

Did I suggest otherwise?

Yes

You don't have to make a constant standard rate turn from departure runway heading to the inbound course of a specific

The SID shows a constant turn to the left. What you’re suggesting is essentially a partial turn, fly straight to the radial, and then as approaching make a second left turn to fly the radial. What IMHO isn’t a continuous constant rate turn.

As it’s not specified, how much do you suggest on the initial turn to the left?

 

[Brad Z]

Yes


The SID shows a constant turn to the left. What you’re suggesting is essentially a partial turn, fly straight to the radial, and then as approaching make a second left turn to fly the radial. What IMHO isn’t a continuous constant rate turn.

As it’s not specified, how much do you suggest on the initial turn to the left?

In order to fly a perfect standard rate turn from runway heading to roll out exactly on the inbound course of the radial, you'd have to calculate the exact spot to initiate the left turn, taking into consideration ground speed, winds aloft, etc. Good luck with that.

The depiction on the chart is not a specific ground track to follow. It's a departure procedure. It's not expected to be flown as a perfectly round turn. The approach designer wants to transition you from departing the runway to proceeding to a fix that can't be navigated to without RNAV. Instead they tell you to transition using a left turn to find your way to the radial.

How you get situated on that radial is up to you, as long as you make a left turn and don't start the turn before 800 feet.

The easy thing to do is plug in SHRLI as a direct-to waypoint. Once you get to 800 feet, start a standard rate turn to the left. If the direct-to course creates too much of an internet angle, stop your turn short of the direct to heading. Reassess. Slow to half standard rate. Do whatever you need to do to get on the radial by SHRLI.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Interesting. CFII instilled that all turns need to be constant rate.

CFIIs instill a lot of things that aren’t necessarily required in the real world. Sometimes it’s lack of experience, sometimes it’s the ACS running counter to the TERPS and/or airspace protections.

I can honestly say that I have done very few standard rate turns in my last 8000 hours of flying on instrument flight plans.

if you can find the right vintage Instrument Flying Handbook, there was an Appendix outlining some of the differences between TERPS and PTS tolerances.

 

[WDD]

Nice. Always appreciate “real world” experience.

 

[luvflyin]

I get that this is your strong POV. Please explain how you deal with making a climbing standard rate turning as soon as you get to 800 feet. That would turn a person short of the 56 radial.

Are you suggesting it implies a non standard rate climbing turn? If it doesn’t want you to fly the profile as depicted and fly on the redial then why is it shown and specified that way?

Standard rate turns are not mandated by any rule that I can think of off hand. When being Radar Vectored it’s a really good idea. Controllers rely on it when ‘timing’ their vectors. Very fast planes just don’t do them. They don’t exceed, I think it’s 25 degrees of bank. At some airspeed this results in less than Standard Rate. Controllers are aware of this.

You mentioned “…the profile as depicted…” By that I’m sure you mean the Bold Black curving line on the Chart. As if you were thinking of it as kinda like an RF Leg. It is not. Maybe some RNAV/GPS Navigators will throw up a curving Magenta Line corresponding to the Bold Black Line on the Chart. And maybe even try to keep you centered on it via left/right of course indications. Or just a picture of your airplane left or right of the line. Now that brings us back to Standard Rate turns. To follow that ad hoc so to speak RF Leg that magically rolls you out right on the 056 Radial, with no thought to intercept angle, only one combination of airspeed and wind will allow it to be done at ‘Standard Rate.’

 

[Camden Walters]

Well there’s one thing I think we can all agree on here: the number of different interpretations (right or wrong or indifferent) definitely takes the “Standard” out of SID!

 

[luvflyin]

Well there’s one thing I think we can all agree on here: the number of different interpretations (right or wrong or indifferent) definitely takes the “Standard” out of SID!

Thang is, it’s all written in English. English is the International language of Aviation. Interpretation not required. Yeah, that’s an oversimplication. The intent of what’s written is sometimes at odds with exactly how it’s written.

 

[Brad Z]

Well there’s one thing I think we can all agree on here: the number of different interpretations (right or wrong or indifferent) definitely takes the “Standard” out of SID!

Honestly I think this is more of a reflection of substandard training by instrument instructors who don't have a lot of experience in the system or in depth understanding of the "why" behind the "what" in instrument procedures.

 

[aterpster]

Honestly I think this is more of a reflection of substandard training by instrument instructors who don't have a lot of experience in the system or in depth understanding of the "why" behind the "what" in instrument procedures.

Spot on.

 

[noahfong]

ATC is going to start inquiring when you're gonna start your turn if you just keep trucking on a 341 heading until you pick up the 056 radial. It may not be technically wrong, but it may get their attention if they have arrivals coming down the left downwind for IAD runway 1L.

I'd like a controller's POV about this statement.

 

[noahfong]

If they wanted something more specific they would have specified it on the chart. The big thing is they don't want departures above 2k to accommodate downwind arrivals into IAD. I see no reason to fly any farther out of your way so if you have the ability to fly direct to shrli, do it and reduce the amount of distance flying trying to gingerly intercept a radial.

Seems if they want you out of the way, the instructions would have been to turn left to a specific intercept heading. But the SID doesn't provide that. Also does not have a min climb per NM to expedite getting to 800.

 

[noahfong]

In order to fly a perfect standard rate turn from runway heading to roll out exactly on the inbound course of the radial, you'd have to calculate the exact spot to initiate the left turn, taking into consideration ground speed, winds aloft, etc. Good luck with that.

Maybe I don't know, but the VOR is over 10NM away. Should be able to watch the needle and do a fairly decent job. Unless you're doing 200kts.

How you get situated on that radial is up to you, as long as you make a left turn and don't start the turn before 800 feet.

Sounds reasonable. Exactly.

 

[Larry in TN]

Nobody would have asked this question in the pre-GPS days.

As has already been mentioned, the IFH describes how to intercept a VOR radial.

 

[luvflyin]

I'd like a controller's POV about this statement.

Here's the post you replied to, "ATC is going to start inquiring when you're gonna start your turn if you just keep trucking on a 341 heading until you pick up the 056 radial. It may not be technically wrong, but it may get their attention if they have arrivals coming down the left downwind for IAD runway 1L".
I was a Controller for 30 years, about 14 years of it at Radar Approach Controls. They're going to expect you start turning at 800. For that maybe, or to get outta the way for subsequent departures if there are some waiting to go, especially if faster than you. You also said this in another post, "...Seems if they want you out of the way, the instructions would have been to turn left to a specific intercept heading. But the SID doesn't provide that..." They could include it in all the Clearances they give I suppose. But it is not necessary. Who knows, maybe it's caused a problem often enough that they do, but I doubt it. They can always Vector you. Once you are talking to them. That doesn't always happen right away. Now we are talking about more transmissions and frequency congestion. When you go to check in with departures you may hear a rapid fire string of transmissions while they are dealing with some other fiasco and you may not be able to get a word in edgewise asking for a vector. You could say Negative SID's. But then you'd be cutting yourself off from getting an RNAV SID which I'm guessing you won't have a problem with. Or you could just tell them you don't know to fly that kind of SID.

 

[noahfong]

OK. I'll be joining the group who will start a turn at the specified altitude. In this case, it may be a gentle turn. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[aterpster]

OK. I'll be joining the group who will start a turn at the specified altitude. In this case, it may be a gentle turn. Thanks for the discussion.

In my hypothetical jet I would be at 180 KIAS, or so, so I would accept the bank angle commanded by the FMS.

 

[WDD]

So - what would an GTN and G500 autopilot do flying this departure?

 

[midlifeflyer]

We had a discussion this past year on a very similar issue - missed approaches where a turn to the stated heading will take you away from where you want to go? For me, the answer is the same - enough situational awareness to turn in the proper direction to an appropriate intercept angle.

 

[midlifeflyer]

So - what would an GTN and G500 autopilot do flying this departure?

Just tried it in the iOS trainer. At 800, turned to intercept the radial just outside of SHRLI. In this case it turned to 275. I suppose if I changed the simulation airspeed, the angle might be different.

 

[WDD]

Midlifeflyer for the win - thanks !

 

[Camden Walters]

Exactly, I turn left to a 270 heading when flying this procedure, even with my /G aircraft, and then adjust if need be for wind.

Just tried it in the iOS trainer. At 800, turned to intercept the radial just outside of SHRLI. In this case it turned to 275. I suppose if I changed the simulation airspeed, the angle might be different.

Yup, this is exactly how I fly this in real life. If the cross wind component is significant, I’ll adjust accordingly based on my ground track.

 

[luvflyin]

We had a discussion this past year on a very similar issue - missed approaches where a turn to the stated heading will take you away from where you want to go? For me, the answer is the same - enough situational awareness to turn in the proper direction to an appropriate intercept angle.

Bingo. Situational awareness. In @coma24 ’s devils advocate /U post #27, which started this latest piece of the thread, you have to see that in your minds eye based on what needles and numbers from your instruments are telling you. No pictures on the panel. The ‘picture’ is in your head.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Midlifeflyer for the win - thanks !

Not a big deal.

climbing LEFT turn on CSN R056.​

doesn't automatically tell me that I will be at that radial at only 600' AGL. Whether I will be south of it or in it or north of it upon reaching 800'MSL depends on what I'm flying. The need to choose an intercept seems obvious.

I'm not sure it's @luvflyin' "picture in your head". At least not completely.
For me, the picture is there - on the chart and on the needles.

i think we get stuck looking at a bunch of numbers. For some people numbers make intuitive sense. Some of us need more. I have a numerical weakness. I transpose them and don't retain them. If I focus on numbers, I can easily screw up (I did that just this past week!). I need that picture to give numbers context. Apparently I'm not alone. I remember when I took one of those 2-day courses for my private knowledge test. One thing they said was the most common wrong answer on the cross country questions was selecting the answer 180° off. Doing calculations, but without looking at the map to realize a heading of 090 is not going to take you from New York to Wisconsin.

 

[luvflyin]

Not a big deal.

climbing LEFT turn on CSN R056.​

doesn't automatically tell me that I will be at that radial at only 600' AGL. Whether I will be south of it or in it or north of it upon reaching 800'MSL depends on what I'm flying. The need to choose an intercept seems obvious.

I'm not sure it's @luvflyin' "picture in your head". At least not completely.
For me, the picture is there - on the chart and on the needles.

i think we get stuck looking at a bunch of numbers. For some people numbers make intuitive sense. Some of us need more. I have a numerical weakness. I transpose them and don't retain them. If I focus on numbers, I can easily screw up (I did that just this past week!). I need that picture to give numbers context. Apparently I'm not alone. I remember when I took one of those 2-day courses for my private knowledge test. One thing they said was the most common wrong answer on the cross country questions was selecting the answer 180° off. Doing calculations, but without looking at the map to realize a heading of 090 is not going to take you from New York to Wisconsin.

I don’t do arithmetic in the air well either. But it’s not needed for this. Like you said, the needles and the chart give you the picture. You just need to know what the needles are telling you. Are you on this side or that side of the radial dialed in on the OBS? How many degrees is full needle deflection? About how far off to this side or that based on about far from the VOR you are? Are the needles moving? Which way? Are you moving closer to or farther away from the radial? About how fast is this happening? I usually dial in the crossing radial on the OBS to identify intersections when I’m established on an Airway or approach segment. But with this SID you aren’t established on anything yet. You’re still looking to get established. I’d probably have 291 dialed in for LDN. Normal sensing on both CDI’s would make it easier to ‘see’, in your minds eye, what is happening. No in the air number crunching needed.

 

[luvflyin]

pic

 

[midlifeflyer]

I don’t do arithmetic in the air well either. But it’s not needed for this. Like you said, the needles and the chart give you the picture. You just need to know what the needles are telling you. Are you on this side or that side of the radial dialed in on the OBS? How many degrees is full needle deflection? About how far off to this side or that based on about far from the VOR you are? Are the needles moving? Which way? Are you moving closer to or farther away from the radial? About how fast is this happening? I usually dial in the crossing radial on the OBS to identify intersections when I’m established on an Airway or approach segment. But with this SID you aren’t established on anything yet. You’re still looking to get established. I’d probably have 291 dialed in for LDN. Normal sensing on both CDI’s would make it easier to ‘see’, in your minds eye, what is happening. No in the air number crunching needed.

I knew we agreed.

Here's another example of getting caught in numbers to the exclusion of the picture. Posted in a Facebook group this morning. Believe it or not, he was trying to figure out the answer to an incredibly simple instrument knowledge test question asking for the correct AIM entry. Of course, it's not his fault. It's the incredibly over-complicated way holding tends to be taught. And, in case no one noticed, he got it backwards.