Keeping speed up on final

ircphoenix

ircphoenix

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ircphoenix
So I've seen quite a bit about this on here with keeping speed up until you cross the fence for faster traffic. Is there a technique for this? I'm assuming it is a modified no flaps landing. Cross the fence, idle, and float down the runway bleeding speed until touchdown, taxiing off farther than the runway than might be typical for your aircraft. Is that accurate? Or what is the technique. Not something I ever had to do during my PPL, so I'm genuinely intrigued.
 
I doubt anyone is keeping speed all the way to the fence. Even my 172 can't bleed off full cruise speed at the fence and land anywhere reasonable on the runway. The technique is pretty simple, though, and it's a judgement call as to where to start it. You need to know your airplane.

First come in as fast as you dare. At the right moment, deploy as much drag as you can. Pitch up to get beneath gear deployment speed, drop 'em. Wait for flap speeds, drop those. Speed brakes, if you've got them. Then, full slip. If you do it right, you come out at 1.3 Vs0 when you pop out of the slip and then it's a normal landing. If you get it wrong, of course, you'll float forever and possibly be forced to abandon the landing. Or, I suppose, a stall (or spin, given the slip) is possible, but excess speed is far more likely. No magic, just learning your plane and the right place, correcting for wind, to transition from full cruise to max drag.
 
I fly into a lot of class C airports, and every so often they would ask me to keep my speed up. Then, once at San Jose, I had to go around just before crossing the fence because of a jet on my tail. After that, I started practicing coming in fast. Now, I can cross the fence at 100kts, and maybe 100ft AGL, cut power, pitch up, drop flaps, put it down soft and still make the first turn off. (Without hard braking.) I actually kind of like it, especially with erratic winds, as the extra speed gives me better control. If my arrival is either straight in, or a base entry, I can come in at 110-120kts, cut power 1/2 mile out at 500ft, and do the same landing. I don't know how safe this practice is, but I don't imagine it's too bad, since I'm still touching down at around 60kts.
 
They do that to you in Louisville (SDF) all the time. I came in on the ILS nearly to minimums and they gave the the "Cirrus 1CD give me your best all the way" with a string of jet traffic behind me... But at SDF you have about 11K feet so I come down about 110 with one notch of flaps. Once I broke out just slow it down and float a bit. I don't try taking any more flaps that low. Now if I were at say a 4000 foot field - I wouldn't do it.
 
Come in fast and do a wheel landing so you can get on the brakes. And/or a short slip to kill some energy. A long so float down the runway kind of defeats the purpose of keeping the speed up.

A wheel landing may not be an option for some aircraft.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Come in fast and do a wheel landing so you can get on the brakes. And/or a short slip to kill some energy. A long so float down the runway kind of defeats the purpose of keeping the speed up.

A wheel landing may not be an option for some aircraft.
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I typically land on the wheels, as landing on any other part of the plane is generally frowned upon.

Can you elaborate on this "wheel landing?"
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Come in fast and do a wheel landing so you can get on the brakes. And/or a short slip to kill some energy. A long so float down the runway kind of defeats the purpose of keeping the speed up.

A wheel landing may not be an option for some aircraft.
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I presume you do the slip BEFORE the wheel landing. Though I suppose you would kill energy in a hurry if you didn't.

For the OP, keeping the speed up to 90 KIAS down to 200 AGL is normal on an ILS. Dump the flaps, yank to idle, and pitch up, and you can still land pretty close to the numbers.

Whatever you do, on a retract, drop the gear at your normal time. Best forward speed can be below Vle.
 
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My instructor and I practiced this several times in a PA28 Archer. To tower: "I can give you 130 knots to the fence if I can take the last exit". WOT to the fence, throttle to idle, level off at 200ft (well out of ground effect), add full flaps when in the white arc, push hard to keep nose down relax the push as speed burns off, then normal descent and landing from there. I need 4,000 feet of runway to do this comfortably.

-Skip
 
Kind of scary to be in a slow craft and hear the plane behind you cycling through position reports 10 mi, 4 mi, 1 mi, and I'm still not touching down.

I agree there is not much point in keeping up my speed if I can't get slowed and exit promptly.
 
If you're at all uncomfortable doing it, just tell approach/tower unable. You may get broken out and vectored back for another approach/landing but remember, you're the PIC, not the controller.

Also, always keep the runway length in mind as you make your decision whether to comply or not. Long 10K runway ok, short 3-4K runway, maybe not. Make sure you know what you're agreeing to do and if it doesn't work out, GO AROUND. Better than rolling off the end of the runway.
 
I guess it depends where your "fence" is. I regularly kept the speed up in a Cessna 172 until short final, closed the throttle, slipped hard, dropped 10 at 110, dropped the rest at 85 and got down to the runway and off at the first taxiway (which admittedly was 4000' down the runway) at Dulles.

The Navion high speed approach is similar... Close the throttle, pull back on the yoke, drop full gear and flaps at 87. She drops like a rock at that point.
 
There is a wonderful word every pilot should know when dealing with controllers. Its "unable".
 
steingar said:
There is a wonderful word every pilot should know when dealing with controllers. Its "unable".
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Sure, but the technique under discussion is useful. It's not appropriate for a student pilot, but nontextbook landings are sometimes necessary for more advanced pilots.

In the context of instrument flight, a circle-to-land can be quite different from a normal pattern approach (often well below TPA, and starting off a bit fast) and "going around" means a missed approach and likely trying the exact same thing again.
 
I've always treated keep your speed up for the same as a short final request. I say this because I'm usually at a higher than normal speed when doing so and appears that they're asking me for this so that I'm out of the way for incoming traffic. If I'm wrong, how would you define make a short final request?
 
MAKG1 said:
Sure, but the technique under discussion is useful. It's not appropriate for a student pilot, but nontextbook landings are sometimes necessary for more advanced pilots.
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The only way this advanced pilot is going to make a landing at a more rapid speed than normal is in a trainer. They tend to be draggy and shed energy quickly. My aircraft does not, and if not landed at the correct speed will float to the next municipality. If a controller wants my speed up on short final the only thing coming out of my big ugly gob is "unable". I'm not pranging my airplane or myself for some guy in a booth.

MAKG1 said:
In the context of instrument flight, a circle-to-land can be quite different from a normal pattern approach (often well below TPA, and starting off a bit fast) and "going around" means a missed approach and likely trying the exact same thing again.
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Yup. And if you're a half decent IFR pilot you come over the fence at your correct approach speed every damn time (heck, you shouldn't be doing the damn approach at much more than 90 knots in the first place). If you're a lousy pilot you come in too fast and float down the runway.
 
steingar said:
The only way this advanced pilot is going to make a landing at a more rapid speed than normal is in a trainer. They tend to be draggy and shed energy quickly. My aircraft does not, and if not landed at the correct speed will float to the next municipality. If a controller wants my speed up on short final the only thing coming out of my big ugly gob is "unable". I'm not pranging my airplane or myself for some guy in a booth.



Yup. And if you're a half decent IFR pilot you come over the fence at your correct approach speed every damn time (heck, you shouldn't be doing the damn approach at much more than 90 knots in the first place). If you're a lousy pilot you come in too fast and float down the runway.
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You're presuming high speed = Vno clean.

I've done it in a 177RG, which is definitely not a primary trainer, and can be difficult to slow clean.

Get the damn gear down and fly the approach no faster than the gear allows. You'll have a much easier time and much less risk of a gear-up.

It's also a mistake to insist on slowing down in a descent. Leveling off to slow will get you down shorter.

Don't do it if you don't want, but the blanket statement that it's only possible in trainers is wrong.

You'll get asked to do this just about any time you land at a busy Class C. It's an important skill to have if you actually want to land there. Landing at Oakland, it's weird NOT to hear it, as there is always a bizjet on your six.
 
There is no one technique that covers all the different planes and their limitations.
You are going to have to decide what speed to carry on final and when to bleed that off to make a touchdown on a reasonable part of the runway.
It's going to be a compromise on how much speed and where to touchdown so you can exit the runway in a minimum amount of time.
 
FredFenster said:
Landing on the 2 mains in a taildragger, as opposed to a 3 point landing..
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Oh. That explains it. I fly a real plane so I was unfamiliar with that terminology. :D *ducks*

Good info by all. Thanks! Was going to keep this in mind on the trip to MRY this weekend. Sounds like something I should practice first though.
 
It's pretty easy in the Champ. Just maintain full speed at 85 mph until you're over the numbers, chop power and land.
 
steingar said:
There is a wonderful word every pilot should know when dealing with controllers. Its "unable".
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I'm a low flying time newbie, this was my first thought. Sorry...no can do. Not until I've practiced it and seen for myself that I could, reliably, and safely.
 
Practice at a non towered airport,get comfortable with your procedure,then when the controller asks for keep your speed up,you'll be ready.
 
MAKG1 said:
You're presuming high speed = Vno clean.
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Not at all. But speeds I was asked to maintain in a Cherokee I couldn't do in my aircraft. It just doesn't slow down all that easily, unlike trainers.

MAKG1 said:
Get the damn gear down and fly the approach no faster than the gear allows. You'll have a much easier time and much less risk of a gear-up.
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The approach speeds I've seen recommended were lower than any gear speed I've seen, so I do agree entirely.

MAKG1 said:
It's also a mistake to insist on slowing down in a descent. Leveling off to slow will get you down shorter.
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Descents within the pattern have to be done level, otherwise you build up too damn much velocity. Takes some planning, which I won't allow a controller to muck up. Other guy can go around.

MAKG1 said:
Don't do it if you don't want, but the blanket statement that it's only possible in trainers is wrong.
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Never said that. What I did say is I wouldn't do it in my aircraft. Never said it was impossible, and possibly easy for someone with better chops than I. The again, I've seen pilots who were supposed to have better chops than I float plenty.

MAKG1 said:
You'll get asked to do this just about any time you land at a busy Class C. It's an important skill to have if you actually want to land there. Landing at Oakland, it's weird NOT to hear it, as there is always a bizjet on your six.
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I've landed lots of C's without, though I've been asked to do strange things. Had fun with the request to expedite my climb in a Cherokee. Again, the word "unable" should be part of your vocabulary. The damn controllers are there for us, not the other way around.
 
It's ATCs job to sequence for slower traffic. Don't jeapordize safety for the sake of making the controllers day a little easier. In an uncontrolled environment the faster plane can wait/fly a bigger pattern. I don't appreciate feeling rushed in the pattern and I know others don't either.
 
My Navion is not a trainer. Many retracts get pretty draggy when you let the wheels and flaps hang out.
 
USAF used Navions as trainers in the ROTC program. One model (L-17) was developed to compete for the program that the T-34 won and was awarded.
 
steingar said:
There is a wonderful word every pilot should know when dealing with controllers. Its "unable".
Click to expand...
Landing at a busy airport like teterboro which I used to frequent, it was best to do as you were told or they would vector you out somewhere until they saw fit to bring you back. I was in a mooney 201 and had no problem complying when they said " you have a heavy behind you please maintain 110 on final " , ( or whatever) . They are trying their best to fit everyone in but have little time for beginners. Teterboro has a looooong runway. No problem.
 
:yeahthat: I'm not going to try to go a a busy B or C then slow to 65 knots on final. Luckily almost every time I'm been to a Bravo, I'm in an SR22 so I have no problem keeping the speed up.
 
Guess it is a good thing I have terrible approach etiquette. I'm at 100+ over the first 1000 feet anyway. I should be fine. Thanks for the reassurance!
 
ircphoenix said:
Oh. That explains it. I fly a real plane so I was unfamiliar with that terminology. :D *ducks*

Good info by all. Thanks! Was going to keep this in mind on the trip to MRY this weekend. Sounds like something I should practice first though.
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You are unlikely to get this at MRY. They'll put you on the little runway instead of shoving you in front of an incoming bizjet or regional.
 
ircphoenix said:
So I've seen quite a bit about this on here with keeping speed up until you cross the fence for faster traffic. Is there a technique for this? I'm assuming it is a modified no flaps landing. Cross the fence, idle, and float down the runway bleeding speed until touchdown, taxiing off farther than the runway than might be typical for your aircraft. Is that accurate? Or what is the technique. Not something I ever had to do during my PPL, so I'm genuinely intrigued.
Click to expand...
In a C150 you can do a 90 knots until about a 1/2 mile final. Cut the power to idle, raise the nose slightly to bleed off the speed, dump the flaps at 85 knots, and allow the airplane to slow to 1.3 VSo (about 63 knots). At this point it's just like any other short field landing.

This technique can be applied to any airplane, but you have to know how long it will take your airplane to slow from a fast airspeed on final to a safe flap extension speed. It is a very useful skill to have when operating at busy airports.
 
arnoha said:
You are unlikely to get this at MRY. They'll put you on the little runway instead of shoving you in front of an incoming bizjet or regional.
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Same thing at John Wayne (KSNA). All those Southwest 737s are on 20R. One of the flight schools there rents a Cub (or used to), so there are some leisurely approaches.
 
champ driver said:
There is no one technique that covers all the different planes and their limitations.
You are going to have to decide what speed to carry on final and when to bleed that off to make a touchdown on a reasonable part of the runway.
It's going to be a compromise on how much speed and where to touchdown so you can exit the runway in a minimum amount of time.
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This. What I am comfortable doing in something like a Baron is drastically different from what I do in the Beech 18.
 
Fearless Tower said:
This. What I am comfortable doing in something like a Baron is drastically different from what I do in the Beech 18.
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Exactly, every situation is different, and so are the planes you are flying.
Go out and practice and get comfortable with what you can do with the plane, know your limitations.
 
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