KDVT Crash - Fatal
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CC268
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CC268
Wow...very sad.
N3368K
Cleared for Takeoff
Acrodusters come down pretty fast... glides like a brick.
My Starduster Too came down 1100-1200 fpm at idle at 80mph IAS. The acroduster has less wing.
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woodchucker
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woodchucker
Is 80 best glide dropping 1200 fps? That’s insane. What’s the goal on an engine out? Dive for the ground to make energy for a flare ... if you are lucky?
Timbeck2
Final Approach
Just found out that Dr. Carpenter was one of the vets that worked on one of my wife's horses a few years ago. I remember talking to her as she was trying to calm my wife down. May they rest in peace.
hindsight2020
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I think he means Feet per minute. 1200fps is 72,000fpm, which would be around Mach 1.1 at sea level LOL. But who knows, those EABers have a penchant for grandstanding
N3368K
Cleared for Takeoff
I think he means Feet per minute. 1200fps is 72,000fpm, which would be around Mach 1.1 at sea level LOL. But who knows, those EABers have a penchant for grandstanding
Yep. Feet per minute. It is the only thing fast about a Starduster Too.
Most biplanes are high drag due to lots of wing/lift, struts, wires etc. pull power, go down.
I'm afraid to looker the VSI in a Pitts S1S as it drops like a rock even more so. It is easy to get set up for more rate of descent than you realize and hit hard and bounce rally high...know from experience.
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AKBill
En-Route
Boy that seems fast decent to me, 1200fpm at best glide?
RyanShort1
Final Approach
There's an awful lot of drag and you've got to keep your energy up. One of my scarier moments I've had in aviation was in an Acroduster II over the Texas Hill Country with a mag failure trying to nurse it to a suitable runway. The thing would barely hold altitude... even with a big engine (IO-540), it just didn't have enough energy to fly well with a dead mag. I knew once I started the approach to land I wasn't coming back up.
unsafervguy
En-Route
First off condolences to their families and friends. I have no knowledge of their flight histories except from what I have read here. But, I'm starting to see a picture that has bothered me for years. From what I have read here, they were lower time pilots that just recently got a tailwheel endorsement and some aerobatic training in a reletivily docile aircraft. Then jumped into to a high powered high drag biplane, again, I have no knowledge of what checkout they received, but it is a trend that I see that really bothers me.
Before getting into a type that has more unique handling characteristics anybody needs specialized training to make the move. I have over 12,000 hours, hundreds in tailwheel airplanes. But before I would never jump in a acroduster or any high power bipe with out a good amount of duel in type or like type, such as a two hole Pitts. They have unique handling characteristics that take training to master.
Again, this is not a comment on these pilots, may they Rest In Peace, but in the training environment that I see out there, especially in the experimental world.
It just seemed to me that pilots in general are taking transition trading in more demanding types way to lightly. We have seen a lot of crashes lately with people new to types having accidents that appear to be lack of proper type training.
Bob
Before getting into a type that has more unique handling characteristics anybody needs specialized training to make the move. I have over 12,000 hours, hundreds in tailwheel airplanes. But before I would never jump in a acroduster or any high power bipe with out a good amount of duel in type or like type, such as a two hole Pitts. They have unique handling characteristics that take training to master.
Again, this is not a comment on these pilots, may they Rest In Peace, but in the training environment that I see out there, especially in the experimental world.
It just seemed to me that pilots in general are taking transition trading in more demanding types way to lightly. We have seen a lot of crashes lately with people new to types having accidents that appear to be lack of proper type training.
Bob
whifferdill
Line Up and Wait
Folks tend to make a big deal about the glide rate of acro bipes, but for those with fixed pitch props, it's really not that bad. Sure they come down faster than a 172, but it's not like you have to perform some sort of diving space shuttle approach to have a chance at flaring to land without power. They still fly like an airplane. Fly 1.4Vso and you can flare to land just like any other common plane does at 1.3Vso. You don't have the glide ratio of lots other planes, but what folks don't generally appreciate is how steeply you can slip them. You won't glide super far, but you can vary your descent angle to a greater extent than low drag planes with crap rudders, which means you can drop them into tight spots from seemingly impossible angles. This is what my Pitts S-1 (FP prop) would do if you really try. A straight in non-slipped power off approach would have been significantly flatter. Pilots of these airplanes should train to use the full performance potential if needed.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AaBCIZRspA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AaBCIZRspA
RyanShort1
Final Approach
The worst part is that they weren't too far from Chandler Air Service with their Great Lakes... which in my opinion might have been useful.
N3368K
Cleared for Takeoff
Yep. Feet per minute. It is the only thing fast about a Starduster Too.
Most biplanes are high drag due to lots of wing/lift, struts, wires etc. Pull power, go down.
I'm afraid to look at the VSI in a Pitts S1S as it drops like a rock even more so. It is easy to get set up for more rate of descent than you realize and hit hard and bounce rally high...know from experience.
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Yes, it is quite fast. As I noted before and Ryan stated below, a huge amount of drag. You must keep the airspeed up so you have sufficient energy to break the descent in the flare. The plane stalled much slower, but if deadstick, you could control it all the way to the crash...because you won't be able to flare. In this case, however, it appears he was likely trying to stretch the glide and turning and stalled/spun it. In most biplanes (Staggerwing/Lionheart are exceptions), you aren't going to glide far at pattern altitude with no power. Add in some tight turns trying to make a desired, but unreachable point and you have a big problem.
My condolences to the families and friends involved. Regardless of what others may say about they went out the way they would have wanted, I cannot buy into it. Flying is my passion. I do it every chance I get. I love flying old and/or aerobatic airplanes too. I have zero desire to die by crashing one. It may happen, but rest assured, I have no desire for it.
Lowflynjack
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Jack Fleetwood
I always tell my friends if I die in an airplane, don't tell people I died doing what I loved. I love flying, not crashing.
CC268
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I did aerobatic training over there in the Great Lakes and it was awesome. My instructor owned and had many hours in an Acroduster II as well.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
Probably the guy I flew with after my client bought his...
CC268
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I agree. Based on their Facebooks, they flew a Mooney and Grumman for a while. In June/July of this summer (literally 2 months ago) they got a tailwheel endorsement. The lady pilot did a little bit of aerobatic/spin training in a Super Decathlon. They picked this plane up in California on Saturday. The accident happened on Monday. I would guess they had little to no training in that airplane.
I'm not trying to paint a false picture of these folks, but they were very "adventurous". Raced sport bikes, rock climbing, paragliding, hang gliding, etc. It wouldn't be hard to get quite complacent about flying when your constantly surrounded by higher risk activities all the time. They had a website called "millionwaystodie".
CC268
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His name was Larry. He was actually a police officer in Detroit for most of his career. He was an awesome guy.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
Yup, just found my old logbook from 2012 and found his info in the May section. We flew from CHD to P08 for lots of landings and a little airwork. Put 16.2 hours in that plane between checkout, ferry, and checking the new owner out. Kinda interesting going back to that logbook.
CC268
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Awesome! Yea Coolidge is a fun little airport. We never went anywhere but the aerobatic box though.