KCRQ ILS 24

[ahmad]

I'm looking at the missed approach procedures for the ILS24 at KCRQ.

climb to 3000 of heading 245 and OCN 145 to OCN and hold. There's no holding pattern depicted on the chart. So, how and where exactly over OCN do you hold? Will the holding instructions be issued by approach since its not depicted on the chart?

 

[tsts4]

IIRC and I haven’t reviewed this in a while, in lieu of specific instructions you’d hold SE of the OCN VOR on the 145* radial, right turns, 1 min legs.

 

[RussR]

Precious discussion on this situation, which does reference CRQ starting in post 28:

Missed approach fix then what?

So I noticed that some plates will give missed approach instructions to a fix without publishing a hold. e.g. KSNA ILS 20R has you fly basically the LOC pass the airport and direct to MINOE 10.9 DME. But no hold is published on the chart at MINOE (though ironically the alternative missed does...

www.pilotsofamerica.com

 

[tsts4]

Precious discussion on this situation, which does reference CRQ starting in post 28:

Missed approach fix then what?

So I noticed that some plates will give missed approach instructions to a fix without publishing a hold. e.g. KSNA ILS 20R has you fly basically the LOC pass the airport and direct to MINOE 10.9 DME. But no hold is published on the chart at MINOE (though ironically the alternative missed does...

www.pilotsofamerica.com

I think there’s a difference in this instance vs the discussion in that thread. In this case the Missed Approach procedure specifically says to hold at OCN, it’s just not visually depicted on the plate hence the question.

 

[RussR]

I think there’s a difference in this instance vs the discussion in that thread. In this case the Missed Approach procedure specifically says to hold at OCN, it’s just not visually depicted on the plate hence the question.

And I think you're correct.

The thread is still interesting though. And in it, I mention that CRQ had been a discussion here or maybe on a FB group. Well, I found the FB discussion.

It was in the Instrument Flying and Currency group, and I posted this:

-------
There is a holding pattern, it is actually the 090 inbound course. The source document indicates "do not chart".

This exact procedure and the reasons for this situation, was a focus of some feedback to the Opposing Bases podcast, episode 125: https://opposingbases.libsyn.com/ob125-invisible-elves-holding-pattern

Discussion starts at 26:34 into the episode.

 

[MountainDude]

One more reason I am not interested in IR. It's crazy that we have this archaic system that is not clear 100% of the time, yet your life may depend on understanding it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

One more reason I am not interested in IR. It's crazy that we have this archaic system that is not clear 100% of the time, yet your life may depend on understanding it.

It’s clearer than most things in life. IFR just requires a deeper knowledge base.

 

[midlifeflyer]

And I think you're correct.

The thread is still interesting though. And in it, I mention that CRQ had been a discussion here or maybe on a FB group. Well, I found the FB discussion.

It was in the Instrument Flying and Currency group, and I posted this:

-------
There is a holding pattern, it is actually the 090 inbound course. The source document indicates "do not chart".

This exact procedure and the reasons for this situation, was a focus of some feedback to the Opposing Bases podcast, episode 125: https://opposingbases.libsyn.com/ob125-invisible-elves-holding-pattern

Discussion starts at 26:34 into the episode.

I wonder whether there has ever been a discussion about this at the Chart Clinic end. The absence of the holding pattern is unusual enough that a chart note something like “…and Hold per ATC“ would be appropriate. Kind of like the ODPs that say, “Runway 34 NA - ATC.”

Even the source document doesn’t say why (and anyway, pilots shouldn’t need to read the source documents unless they are creating their own charts).

 

[tsts4]

I wonder how often anyone going missed at CRQ only gets "fly the published miss". Methinks never. That said if were to happen to me I'd do what I said in post #4 if I couldn't get some amplifying instructions which in my mind is about as unlikely as a comm out scenario -- possible, just not very probable.

 

[asicer]

It's crazy that we have this archaic system that is not clear 100% of the time, yet your life may depend on understanding it.

That pretty much describes the English language. Trust me, IFR is more consistent.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I wonder how often anyone going missed at CRQ only gets "fly the published miss". Methinks never. That said if were to happen to me I'd do what I said in post #4 if I couldn't get some amplifying instructions which in my mind is about as unlikely as a comm out scenario -- possible, just not very probable.

Probably never is correct. While not exactly obvious, the lack of a charted hold for the missed tells me that it’s ATC-directed, even if its absence is a design or charting error. And yes, general AIM guidance says to do the hold SE of OCN on the R145. it’s interesting that AIM 5-3-8 covers this entire situation.

If no holding pattern is charted and holding instructions have not been issued, the pilot should ask ATC for holding instructions prior to reaching the fix. This procedure will eliminate the possibility of an aircraft entering a holding pattern other than that desired by ATC. If unable to obtain holding instructions prior to reaching the fix (due to frequency congestion, stuck microphone, etc.), then enter a standard pattern on the course on which the aircraft approached the fix and request further clearance as soon as possible.​

 

[flyingron]

Given a choice, I'd hold west on the 263 radial.

 

[ahmad]

And I think you're correct.

The thread is still interesting though. And in it, I mention that CRQ had been a discussion here or maybe on a FB group. Well, I found the FB discussion.

It was in the Instrument Flying and Currency group, and I posted this:

-------
There is a holding pattern, it is actually the 090 inbound course. The source document indicates "do not chart".

This exact procedure and the reasons for this situation, was a focus of some feedback to the Opposing Bases podcast, episode 125: https://opposingbases.libsyn.com/ob125-invisible-elves-holding-pattern

Discussion starts at 26:34 into the episode.

So I flew the approach in MSFS and the 090 inbound course is exactly what MSFS has as the holding pattern. It is interesting that these holding patterns are not charted but yet exist.

 

[ahmad]

It’s clearer than most things in life. IFR just requires a deeper knowledge base.

Some days I find flying IFR a whole lot easier than VFR.

 

[Ventucky Red]

I wonder how often anyone going missed at CRQ only gets "fly the published miss". Methinks never.

Bingo...... However, I know of a few that were given this hold flying down the coast into CRQ due to a fast-moving marine layer...

It’s clearer than most things in life. IFR just requires a deeper knowledge base.

Yes.... and I am still learning...

 

[Steamflyer]

One more reason I am not interested in IR. It's crazy that we have this archaic system that is not clear 100% of the time, yet your life may depend on understanding it.

The system is actually amazing. In the US, you can take off, find unforecast weather, get a pop-up clearance, get to your destination, shoot the IFR approach, a visual approach or cancel depending on field conditions. All on a moment's notice. Day or night.

Having been to CRQ many times, am 99.99% sure no one actually gets to OCN on the missed without alternate missed instructions having been given. This is SoCal - they are going to figure out what to do with you, absolutely. You aren't going to spin at 3000' in circles right on the coastline. Unless they want you to. If absolutely worried and getting close, just ask. If suddenly nordo, just pick a radial and start your hold. They'll see you, figure it out, and keep the others away until they figure out what you are going to do. Personally if arrived at OCN with no instructions and suddenly no radio, I'd hold outbound on the 325 radial. Just in case the guys behind me also goes missed - don't want he or she pointed at me on the 145 outbound. Also an easier entry.

 

[RussR]

The system is actually amazing. In the US, you can take off, find unforecast weather, get a pop-up clearance, get to your destination, shoot the IFR approach, a visual approach or cancel depending on field conditions. All on a moment's notice. Day or night.

Having been to CRQ many times, am 99.99% sure no one actually gets to OCN on the missed without alternate missed instructions having been given. This is SoCal - they are going to figure out what to do with you, absolutely. You aren't going to spin at 3000' in circles right on the coastline. Unless they want you to. If absolutely worried and getting close, just ask. If suddenly nordo, just pick a radial and start your hold. They'll see you, figure it out, and keep the others away until they figure out what you are going to do. Personally if arrived at OCN with no instructions and suddenly no radio, I'd hold outbound on the 325 radial. Just in case the guys behind me also goes missed - don't want he or she pointed at me on the 145 outbound. Also an easier entry.

You'd hold on the 325 radial "outbound"? What exactly do you mean? Because what I'm picturing you meaning isn't a valid holding pattern at a VOR.

 

[Steamflyer]

Assumption is that you've gone nordo and need to figure out the next move, so you've elected to hold. You came inbound on the 145 degree radial, so why not just hold outbound on the 325 to make life easy? This is an emergency situation recall.

 

[Larry in TN]

Assumption is that you've gone nordo and need to figure out the next move, so you've elected to hold. You came inbound on the 145 degree radial, so why not just hold outbound on the 325 to make life easy? This is an emergency situation recall.

Isn't it even easier if you just make a right turn, direct entry into a holding pattern on inbound radial? i.e. Hold SE of OCN on the R-145

 

[Steamflyer]

Isn't it even easier if you just make a right turn, direct entry into a holding pattern on inbound radial? i.e. Hold SE of OCN on the R-145

Slightly easier. I just would't want to hold in the sector where the next missed guy is going to show up if just gone nordo.

 

[RyanB]

One more reason I am not interested in IR. It's crazy that we have this archaic system that is not clear 100% of the time, yet your life may depend on understanding it.

It’s actually quite clear once you learn about it.

 

[RussR]

Assumption is that you've gone nordo and need to figure out the next move, so you've elected to hold. You came inbound on the 145 degree radial, so why not just hold outbound on the 325 to make life easy? This is an emergency situation recall.

So you'd hold like this? That's not a valid hold at a VOR. And by "not valid", I don't mean "not legal", I mean "not possible".

 

[Larry in TN]

Slightly easier. I just would't want to hold in the sector where the next missed guy is going to show up if just gone nordo.

Is he NORDO, too?

 

[Htaylor]

Personally if arrived at OCN with no instructions and suddenly no radio, I'd hold outbound on the 325 radial. Just in case the guys behind me also goes missed - don't want he or she pointed at me on the 145 outbound. Also an easier entry.

This makes no sense. If you are Nordo, you need to be predictable to ATC. Hold as published or otherwise instructed and let ATC issue other instructions to non-nordo aircraft to keep you clear. And as Russ pointed out, you'll be penetrating the most violated R areas in SoCal.

 

[MountainDude]

It’s actually quite clear once you learn about it.

The fact that this thread exists, especially with the back-and-forth discussion, tells me this is not quite a clear issue.

 

[RyanB]

The fact that this thread exists, especially with the back-and-forth discussion, tells me this is not quite a clear issue.

How long have you been on POA? I’m not sure of any subject that doesn’t generate debate.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Bingo...... However, I know of a few that were given this hold flying down the coast into CRQ due to a fast-moving marine layer...



Yes.... and I am still learning...

We all are.

 

[midlifeflyer]

This makes no sense. If you are Nordo, you need to be predictable to ATC

That’s the one thing you don’t have to worry about. If you are NORDO, ATC will treat it as an emergency (it probably is one) and clear the airspace with the hope you get down safely as soon as you can.

Slightly easier. I just would't want to hold in the sector where the next missed guy is going to show up if just gone nordo.

Damn! Two NORDOs in the same airspace at the same times, and with the second one losing their radios before you did!

 

[MountainDude]

How long have you been on POA? I’m not sure of any subject that doesn’t generate debate.

I would expect IFR flying to be exact, like 2+2, and not allow for subjective opinions.

 

[AKiss20]

I would expect IFR flying to be exact, like 2+2, and not allow for subjective opinions.

2 + 2 = 5 for very large values of 2

 

[midlifeflyer]

I would expect IFR flying to be exact, like 2+2, and not allow for subjective opinion

I doubt you will find the level of perfection you seek anywhere in human endeavors. Besides, I think “subjective opinion” in this context is called “judgment.”

Since we’re using lost comm as the scenario, I guess mentioning my favorite paragraph from the AIM is appropriate. It talks about lost comm but the sentiment is applicable everywhere…

It is virtually impossible to provide regulations and procedures applicable to all possible situations associated with two-way radio communications failure. During two-way radio communications failure, when confronted by a situation not covered in the regulation, pilots are expected to exercise good judgment in whatever action they elect to take. Should the situation so dictate they should not be reluctant to use the emergency action contained in 14 CFR Section 91.3(b).​

You see horrible danger in that. I see reality in an incredibly well-run international system.

 

[Larry in TN]

I would expect IFR flying to be exact, like 2+2, and not allow for subjective opinions.

AKiss20's comment is perfect. "2+2=5 for very large values of 2"

You need to take a step back and look at the IFR system from a big-picture perspective where the important things are keeping airplanes separated from terrain and other airplanes then routed and sequenced in an efficient and orderly manner. The problem comes in when we are looking at it with the microscope of the training environment and insist on perfect solutions to unlikely, and ultimately unimportant, problems. We tend to overcomplicated and get lost in arguing irrelevant details.

 

[RussR]

AKiss20's comment is perfect. "2+2=5 for very large values of 2"

You need to take a step back and look at the IFR system from a big-picture perspective where the important things are keeping airplanes separated from terrain and other airplanes then routed and sequenced in an efficient and orderly manner. The problem comes in when we are looking at it with the microscope of the training environment and insist on perfect solutions to unlikely, and ultimately unimportant, problems. We tend to overcomplicated and get lost in arguing irrelevant details.

Larry, that may be the most perfect post ever on this board.