KADS : "PAN PAN, I've crashed and we can't get out"

TangoWhiskey

TangoWhiskey

Touchdown! Greaser!
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3Green
I just recently got checked out in N533MC, a gorgeous, refurbished Turbo Arrow III in the Metroplex Flyers club. Really nice bird: http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photos/N533MC:1.html

Somebody crashed it at Addison yesterday, trying to land in winds 200 16G24. Video from Millionaire suggests he bounced it back into the air and came down hard.

Attached is KADS LiveATC audio edited for time (dead spots mostly removed, except for when tower called 3MC and there was no response, to make that clear). Most concerning part, after his "pan pan, I've crashed" was a subsequent "I can't open the door, and I have a busted wing with my kids on board. Concerned about fire. Please expedite the trucks!"

I guess my wife is right when she says "I want you to buy a plane with TWO doors!"

FYI, this occurred 11/30 at 4:40pm CT.
 

Attachments

  • KADS1-Twr-Nov-30-2014-2230Z - N533MC.mp3
    2.4 MB · Views: 233
As an Archer II pilot this peaks my interest. I was under the impression you could kick a window out if you had to.
 
cowman said:
As an Archer II pilot this peaks my interest. I was under the impression you could kick a window out if you had to.
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If you have the ability with no injuries that prevent you from doing it, yes, you can kick the windows out of many planes, it is not without considerable effort though.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
I just recently got checked out in N533MC, a gorgeous, refurbished Turbo Arrow III in the Metroplex Flyers club. Really nice bird: http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photos/N533MC:1.html

Somebody crashed it at Addison yesterday, trying to land in winds 200 16G24. Video from Millionaire suggests he bounced it back into the air and came down hard.

Attached is KADS LiveATC audio edited for time (dead spots mostly removed, except for when tower called 3MC and there was no response, to make that clear). Most concerning part, after his "pan pan, I've crashed" was a subsequent "I can't open the door, and I have a busted wing with my kids on board. Concerned about fire. Please expedite the trucks!"

I guess my wife is right when she says "I want you to buy a plane with TWO doors!"

FYI, this occurred 11/30 at 4:40pm CT.
Click to expand...

You would have to bounce a Arrow REAL hard to get the wing bent enough to prevent the door from opening...:eek::eek::yikes:
 
On an earlier recording with Regional Approach, and this one as well, he seems to indicate that somebody else had reported smoke in the cockpit on a squawk sheet, but that it had been looked at and addressed. I personally think the "smoke in the cockpit" is a red herring as it relates to this incident, and that the winds (RLOC, Runway Loss of Control) are the primary causal factor here. We'll see...

See attached for the earlier conversation. In it, he also mentions oil pressure being okay. I think something got him "spooked" earlier in the flight and he was distracted.
 

Attachments

  • KADS-Twr-App-Nov-30-2014-2200Z - 533MC.mp3
    362.5 KB · Views: 14
Sounds like the aircraft was full,would be hard to get in a good position to kick out a window. Glad it all turned out for the good.
 
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Also... the audio I posted above is clipped for time. Here's the Addison post-crash timeline in mm:ss (not correlated to UTC clock, just mm:ss in the audio stream):

0543: Twr: "Piaggio, go around, we have a disabled aircraft on the runway"
0554: Twr: "533MC, we have the gear rolling."
0629: 3MC: "pan pan, I've crashed."
0637: Twr: "Roger, crew is rolling."
0730: 3MC: "Busted wing, kids on board, worried about gas/fire issue."
0744: Twr: "Roger, they are on their way and know you're trapped."
0819: Twr: "I see the crew rolling, flashing lights, another minute to minute and a half at most."

So, it took 2.5 minutes after the incident before tower saw moving trucks, and the pilot took 45 seconds before his PAN PAN after the incident.
 
How do you crash in 25 knot winds 50 degrees off the runway?
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Will a LifeHammer break plexi? I'm thinking "no."

I carry one in my flight bag. Can cut seat belts using the aft end; has a sharp carbide point for breaking out a window.

https://www.amazon.com/Original-Lif...nkId=4HIIKABUSXG745MU&creativeASIN=B000BMWXZM

If I owned my own aircraft, I'd have these mounted to the sidewalls on both sides, in easy reach.
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I would think "no" as well. They're made to work with non-laminated, tempered glass.

A couple of the Van's guys tried it and said no, too.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/archive/index.php?t-26814.html
bought one of the "window breakers" like Ron mentioned. I tried to break some of the cast-off pieces from my canopy with it and barely made a scratch. There isn't hardly any mass to the thing and the plexi just flexes. There also isn't enough room to get a good swing inside an -8.

I didn't put the breaker in my -8 and certainly wouldn't trust it to get me out during an emergency. I think something really sharp like a survival knife or ax would be the way to go.
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The "life hammer" is designed to cut seatbelts and to break auto glass. I used one in an Autobahn accident in Germany (and it worked fine for its intended role). I now carry one in my Jeep. Having said that, I couldn't get mine to break a sample piece of cold (20 degree) plexiglass in my shop-even with a full swing. I wouldn't want to rely on it to break a canopy if I was hanging upside down in an RV so it's off my list of stuff to carry...
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TangoWhiskey said:
Will a LifeHammer break plexi? I'm thinking "no."

I carry one in my flight bag. Can cut seat belts using the aft end; has a sharp carbide point for breaking out a window.

https://www.amazon.com/Original-Lif...nkId=4HIIKABUSXG745MU&creativeASIN=B000BMWXZM

If I owned my own aircraft, I'd have these mounted to the sidewalls on both sides, in easy reach.
Click to expand...

Yes, one of the little dead blow hammers with a point on it will make breaking plexiglass easier, you still need to swing hard at it though.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Will a LifeHammer break plexi? I'm thinking "no."

I carry one in my flight bag. Can cut seat belts using the aft end; has a sharp carbide point for breaking out a window.

https://www.amazon.com/Original-Lif...nkId=4HIIKABUSXG745MU&creativeASIN=B000BMWXZM

If I owned my own aircraft, I'd have these mounted to the sidewalls on both sides, in easy reach.
Click to expand...

LifeHammer won't cut plexi, but trust me, the 3 D cell MagLite I keep within reach will definitely take out a window in most GA aircraft.
 
kgruber said:
The Arrow III is the most docile GA aircraft ever made in a crosswind.
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The aircraft might be, but not everyone is capable of dealing with high winds and/or cross-winds.
 
I had to land a 206 out in Bethal, AK in winds gusting to 35kts... Straight down the pipe, thank god...
 
akpilot907 said:
I had to land a 206 out in Bethal, AK in winds gusting to 35kts... Straight down the pipe, thank god...
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We do that in our 207s all the time....granted most of us fly more in a month than most private pilots do in a year.
 
akpilot907 said:
I had to land a 206 out in Bethal, AK in winds gusting to 35kts... Straight down the pipe, thank god...
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A 25kts direct crosswind is highest I've done in an Arrow. It was a bit of chore to get a non side loaded touchdown.
 
akpilot907 said:
I have the up most respect for you guys! Sure know the limits of the aircraft... :yes:
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If you ever want to go buzz around sometime send me a message and I'll let you know when I'm up there. We'll go play in the wind on some icy runways.
 
Henning said:
Yes, one of the little dead blow hammers with a point on it will make breaking plexiglass easier, you still need to swing hard at it though.
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Except the one he references is a a little plastic piece with a sharpened dowel stuck in it; 4.9 oz with the mounting bracket.

Can't see swinging that one hard enough to do any good.

At least it doesn't claim to have a built in airbag popping needle. Always loved those! :roll eyes:
 
I've been told that a fire extinguisher used as a bludgeon will break or pop out plexi windows pretty readily. A recalcitrant seat belt scares me more.
 
Pan pan. What??? Even worried about fire after crashing he cannot say the word EMERGENCY!
Give me a break.
 
silver-eagle said:
Pan pan. What??? Even worried about fire after crashing he cannot say the word EMERGENCY!
Give me a break.
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Pan Pan is an emergency call, and properly used BTW. Mayday is immediate threat. If the plane is stopped and not burning and no one is critically injured, there is no longer an immediate threat. Pan Pan is "I'm in a bind, and if I don't get some help pretty quickly, there is a good chance it will escalate to a Mayday." I was impressed that a pilot would know to use it correctly.
 
Henning said:
Pan Pan is an emergency call, and properly used BTW. Mayday is immediate threat. If the plane is stopped and not burning and no one is critically injured, there is no longer an immediate threat. Pan Pan is "I'm in a bind, and if I don't get some help pretty quickly, there is a good chance it will escalate to a Mayday." I was impressed that a pilot would know to use it correctly.
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I thought it was funny that he was apologetic about tying up the frequency. Dude, you've crashed. Could catch fire. Can't get out! The other people on frequency are just looking for vectors to an alternate. Don't apologize! You and your passengers get priority right now!
 
I empathize with the emotional turmoil of having his children there in that situation and daddy (Superman) can't fix it.
 
Henning said:
Yes, one of the little dead blow hammers with a point on it will make breaking plexiglass easier, you still need to swing hard at it though.
Click to expand...


An eight ounce ball peen hammer is part of the equipment in a Cirrus. The placard says:

REMOVE EGRESS HAMMER FROM WITHIN
CENTER ARMREST LID. STRIKE CORNER OF
WINDOW. KICK OR PUSH OUT AFTER FRACTURING

There's an account of its use after one CAPs pull, over water. After ditching, the pilot used the hammer on the center of the side window, not the corner, and this resulted in a fragmented window. He had to pull the shards apart by hand, but he did get out before the plane sank.
 
Hammer checklist:

- Remove hammer from storage area.

- Whack pilot with it for crashing while yelling, "We're going to die you idiot!" as remedial training for his lapse in directional control skills upon crashing instead of landing.

- After FD extricates you, send hammer to Captain so he can whack Troy with it for calling the airplane a "bird", because it bothers him.
 
NoHeat said:
An eight ounce ball peen hammer is part of the equipment in a Cirrus. The placard says:

REMOVE EGRESS HAMMER FROM WITHIN
CENTER ARMREST LID. STRIKE CORNER OF
WINDOW. KICK OR PUSH OUT AFTER FRACTURING

There's an account of its use after one CAPs pull, over water. After ditching, the pilot used the hammer on the center of the side window, not the corner, and this resulted in a fragmented window. He had to pull the shards apart by hand, but he did get out before the plane sank.
Click to expand...

That is important, if you break it in the corner, it will develop a split that will leave slabs that will bend and pop out of the frame whole under their own tension. If you hit it in the middle it bursts into a bunch of sharp wedges.
 
Henning said:
Pan Pan is an emergency call, and properly used BTW. Mayday is immediate threat. If the plane is stopped and not burning and no one is critically injured, there is no longer an immediate threat. Pan Pan is "I'm in a bind, and if I don't get some help pretty quickly, there is a good chance it will escalate to a Mayday." I was impressed that a pilot would know to use it correctly.
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I'm one of those that wouldn't have known that. Thanks for the explanation.
 
murphey said:
The aircraft might be, but not everyone is capable of dealing with high winds and/or cross-winds.
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Then those folks shouldn't fly airplanes on windy days. Actually, those folks shouldn't fly airplanes at all.
 
steingar said:
Then those folks shouldn't fly airplanes on windy days. Actually, those folks shouldn't fly airplanes at all.
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You should practice in high wind crosswinds when you can so that when you encounter them you have the skill to deal with them. As for flying on calm days you never know when the wind will change. I flew the N3N last Friday and the wind was calm when I got to the airport and was blowing about 10 when I took off. Flew for about 20 min and when I called in the Wind was 220@21 gusts to 35 about a 40 degree crosswind. It was a lot of work but I got down safely. The taxi in was the hardest part. So keep current. Grab a good instructor on a windy day and practice. Don
 
yakdriver said:
You should practice in high wind crosswinds when you can so that when you encounter them you have the skill to deal with them. As for flying on calm days you never know when the wind will change. I flew the N3N last Friday and the wind was calm when I got to the airport and was blowing about 10 when I took off. Flew for about 20 min and when I called in the Wind was 220@21 gusts to 35 about a 40 degree crosswind. It was a lot of work but I got down safely. The taxi in was the hardest part. So keep current. Grab a good instructor on a windy day and practice. Don
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Actually I would disagree with that. Crosswind practice is important, but practicing in dangerously high crosswinds is too much like practicing bleeding as far as I'm concerned. Winds like that (G35KT) are unpredictable and the direction is often variable. You can be putting in all the right inputs, then the wind changes and even if your reaction is timely and spot-on accurate, the plane takes time to respond and in that time, you might be off the runway. Nearly happened to me once because of a thunderstorm gust front, 21008KT on rwy 27 shearing to 330 somethingG25KT in the blink of an eye.

I agree though, that if you're going to do it, do it with a GOOD instructor. If nothing else, the FAA will probably go harder on him than on you if you prang the plane.
 
Most GA airplanes will handle a 25kt direct crosswind without much problem. Most pilots never practice in much more than 10-15kts. Is practicing in a gusty crosswind fun? No, but it could save your life someday. Don
 
yakdriver said:
You should practice in high wind crosswinds when you can so that when you encounter them you have the skill to deal with them. As for flying on calm days you never know when the wind will change. I flew the N3N last Friday and the wind was calm when I got to the airport and was blowing about 10 when I took off. Flew for about 20 min and when I called in the Wind was 220@21 gusts to 35 about a 40 degree crosswind. It was a lot of work but I got down safely. The taxi in was the hardest part. So keep current. Grab a good instructor on a windy day and practice. Don
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Yup.... Has been a bit breezy over here in the Hole... And it came from your direction.......:hairraise:.........;)

Sunday morning I had a 76 mph gust at my house......:yikes:
 
Henning said:
If you have the ability with no injuries that prevent you from doing it, yes, you can kick the windows out of many planes, it is not without considerable effort though.
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Some are even nice enough to be designed to be kicked out. My Tampico even has stickers to tell you exactly were to kick to make the window pop out.

Jim
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
Some are even nice enough to be designed to be kicked out. My Tampico even has stickers to tell you exactly were to kick to make the window pop out.

Jim
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Don't try to kick the windshield out of a Bonanza, there's a buttload of screws holding it in, you'll probably hurt your foot.:lol:
 
Coming back from Madrid yesterday the long way over the Atlantic, I was thinking about going down and being trapped inside the airplane as we sank. Since there was about a 400lber between me and the door, I knew I was screwed. I imagined this guy panicking in an emergency, running to the door with armloads of crap, knocking himself out as he trips over a bulkhead, and sealing the rest of our fates. I thought about slowly sinking as I tried futilely to kick out the windows. That's why my emergency policy for long over water flights is to just order a double Scotch for the ride down.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Coming back from Madrid yesterday the long way over the Atlantic, I was thinking about going down and being trapped inside the airplane as we sank. Since there was about a 400lber between me and the door, I knew I was screwed. I imagined this guy panicking in an emergency, running to the door with armloads of crap, knocking himself out as he trips over a bulkhead, and sealing the rest of our fates. I thought about slowly sinking as I tried futilely to kick out the windows. That's why my emergency policy for long over water flights is to just order a double Scotch for the ride down.
Click to expand...

Once or twice I flew commercial to Newfoundland in the middle of winter. When the briefing got to "In the unlikely event of a water landing-" I finished it up with "We're all ****ing dead."
 
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