KADS : "PAN PAN, I've crashed and we can't get out"

[bnt83]

I guess my wife is right when she says "I want you to buy a plane with TWO doors!"

Technically it has three with the baggage door. Try to get trapped sometime.

 

[Ted]

I find myself amazed that so few planes had two real doors. On the 310 that'd be a nice asset.

 

[Henning]

I find myself amazed that so few planes had two real doors. On the 310 that'd be a nice asset.

I have always found it annoying myself. I would gladly pay the weight penalty of the second door. The manufacturing cost differential is a rounding error in the total cost of an airplane that people would willingly pay to get that convenience.

Of all the cabin door arrangements for twins, I like the Aerostar the best. PIC gets in last and latches the door next to them, never having to do the 'ass in face walk' up the aisle, or assigning a passenger to secure the door.

 

[l8evator]

Don't try to kick the windshield out of a Bonanza, there's a buttload of screws holding it in, you'll probably hurt your foot.

And it would be silly since the Bonanza has two emergency exit windows designed to open with the quick pull of a pin.

Scott

 

[Ted]

I agree that I like the Aerostar door the best for a single door. 402s and Chieftains with the crew door also are nice. I never understood why convention was for co-pilot side to have the single door. I'd also gladly pay the weight penalty for "door number two" - it just seems silly to not have.

 

[N801BH]

I agree that I like the Aerostar door the best for a single door. 402s and Chieftains with the crew door also are nice. I never understood why convention was for co-pilot side to have the single door. I'd also gladly pay the weight penalty for "door number two" - it just seems silly to not have.

It is one of the only planes where you CANNOT open the door with the engine running though.........


Well, you can probably do it just once.............

 

[MAKG1]

I like the back door on the C205. NOT.

You can open it with the flaps down (which should be the case on an emergency landing) only if you do it JUST right.

 

[Ted]

It is one of the only planes where you CANNOT open the door with the engine running though.........


Well, you can probably do it just once.............

My point was the location, not its relation to the prop. Yeah, I don't like the prop there, either!

A pilot's door on the 310? One day...

 

[paflyer]

I never understood why convention was for co-pilot side to have the single door.

My guess is so the CFI could finish his smoke* while the student got everything ready to go. And, as a side benefit, be closest to the exit if the student screws up badly.


*bulk of the trainer fleet was designed when this was de rigueur

 

[Marauder]

Alex -- think of the bright side, if you did get out, the 400 lb. guy could be used as a floatation device. Fat floats...

 

[bnt83]

I like the back door on the C205. NOT.

You can open it with the flaps down (which should be the case on an emergency landing) only if you do it JUST right.

What do you mean? The 205 has two doors up front like a 172/182 and a single baggage door that can be used as a PAX door for kids. As far as I know there is no flaps/baggage door interference issue.

 

[Zeldman]

That is my concern on the 421, that the door is far behind me. There is an emergency exit over the right wing, but in an emergency I still need to untangle, unbelt, push the seat back, turn and take a few steps back before I am near an exit. If any of the steps can't be done and there is a fire, it ain't gonna be pretty.

I liked the Chieftain because I had my own door.

I have landed on runways in Alaska that were described as packed snow and ice. In a strong crosswinds, more than 30 degrees off centerline, I would land in a crab and let the plane slide, keeping directional control with rudder and throttle(s). I did that in a B-99 once and the new hire that was new to Alaska sitting next to me thought I was nuts. He left Alaska the next day.

I usually stopped flying when the winds reached 60. Unless the runway was dry, and thats gravel runway.

 

[N5922S]

How do you crash in 25 knot winds 50 degrees off the runway?

That's what I was thinking. That's an ordinary day at KJSO -- my worst was 25kt at 90 deg in a DA20 (gotta admit there's still a permanent crease in the seat cover).

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

So, it took 2.5 minutes after the incident before tower saw moving trucks, and the pilot took 45 seconds before his PAN PAN after the incident.

This is surprising to you? It's a delta. I doubt they have a 24/7 ARFF crew sitting in the station all day waiting for the once per decade bad crash. Most deltas like this have equipment, but no dedicated crew. Airport operations staff are cross trained. They have to drop whatever they're doing, drive over to the station, get dressed, and jump in the truck. 2:45 to be rolling is pretty good!

I'm pretty sure dealing with himself and his child come before radioing in what everyone already knows to begin with.

 

[denverpilot]

Actually I would disagree with that. Crosswind practice is important, but practicing in dangerously high crosswinds is too much like practicing bleeding as far as I'm concerned. Winds like that (G35KT) are unpredictable and the direction is often variable. You can be putting in all the right inputs, then the wind changes and even if your reaction is timely and spot-on accurate, the plane takes time to respond and in that time, you might be off the runway. Nearly happened to me once because of a thunderstorm gust front, 21008KT on rwy 27 shearing to 330 somethingG25KT in the blink of an eye.



I agree though, that if you're going to do it, do it with a GOOD instructor. If nothing else, the FAA will probably go harder on him than on you if you prang the plane.

The only thing "dangerous" about a high crosswind... is your lack of skill in dealing with it.

You can do one of three things, two of which are acceptable:

- Ground yourself above X number on the wind gauge.

- Practice in as much of a controlled environment as possible with someone who isn't as limited in skill set willing to teach.

- Bend the airplane.

Combinations of 1 and 2 are certainly allowable.

 

[Hawker800]

 

[N801BH]

Anyone got pics of the aftermath ??????

I still can't see pranging a Arrow bad enough to bend the wing so far as to prevent the door from opening.......

 

[bnt83]

Anyone got pics of the aftermath ??????

I still can't see pranging a Arrow bad enough to bend the wing so far as to prevent the door from opening.......

What about jamming the latch mechanism and breaking the door handle when attempting to open it?

There are a lot of door handles out there that are a joke and break too easily.

 

[Clark1961]

Anyone got pics of the aftermath ??????

I still can't see pranging a Arrow bad enough to bend the wing so far as to prevent the door from opening.......

If you ever dig into the PA-28 structure you'll find the wing much stouter than the fuselage...if the wing bends the cabin will be broken.

 

[N801BH]

If you ever dig into the PA-28 structure you'll find the wing much stouter than the fuselage...if the wing bends the cabin will be broken.

Yup.... I owned N4341X for 10 years and did an owner assisted annual on it every time.......

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If you ever want to go buzz around sometime send me a message and I'll let you know when I'm up there. We'll go play in the wind on some icy runways.

Bah... Icy runways are easy, you don't even have to kick out of the crab!

It does bring new meaning to "fly the plane all the way to the chocks" when the only thing the landing gear is good for is holding the rest of the plane off the ground...

 

[Clark1961]

Yup.... I owned N4341X for 10 years and did an owner assisted annual on it every time.......

Then maybe you know that the spar box carry-through won't bend but the fore- and aft- wing attachment points look like 16 gauge formed aluminum that ruptures at the smallest flex...

 

[Henning]

I like the back door on the C205. NOT.

You can open it with the flaps down (which should be the case on an emergency landing) only if you do it JUST right.

You can open the door gently and not damage it if you do it right, if you kick it when it hits the flap, it opens right up.

 

[MAKG1]

What do you mean? The 205 has two doors up front like a 172/182 and a single baggage door that can be used as a PAX door for kids. As far as I know there is no flaps/baggage door interference issue.

No, it doesn't. One door up front on the left like a 172/182, one big one with double doors in the rear on the right. The double doors interfere with the flaps (and each other) when they are down unless you open them just right.

I think you're talking about a 210. Different beast.

 

[N801BH]

Then maybe you know that the spar box carry-through won't bend but the fore- and aft- wing attachment points look like 16 gauge formed aluminum that ruptures at the smallest flex...

I was more worried about corrosion around the main attach point of the front spar..... looked DAMN beefy to me..........

I still would like to see pics of the wreckage...

 

[Henning]

No, it doesn't. One door up front on the left like a 172/182, one big one with double doors in the rear on the right. The double doors interfere with the flaps (and each other) when they are down unless you open them just right.

I think you're talking about a 210. Different beast.

I used to haul skydivers in IIRC a C-205 and it had a jump door opposite the pilot's seat, over on the right front.

 

[Clark1961]

I was more worried about corrosion around the main attach point of the front spar..... looked DAMN beefy to me..........

I still would like to see pics of the wreckage...

The wing side is beefy, the cabin side not so much. The 'kota had a crack on the front attachment point. Fortunately for me the crack was found on the pre-buy and the previous owner got to pay for repairs. The repair was a complete R/R of the the attachment rib. I got to see everything after the disassembly for repair.

I agree, pictures would be educational. I'm pretty sure I can kick a PA-28 door open after releasing the latches.

 

[bnt83]

No, it doesn't. One door up front on the left like a 172/182, one big one with double doors in the rear on the right. The double doors interfere with the flaps (and each other) when they are down unless you open them just right.

I think you're talking about a 210. Different beast.

Can you see two doors up front? The pilot's door is open and so is the window. This is a 205. There is only 1 door on the right and its the Copilot door same size as the left pilot door.







210 (1963 thru 1966 ish) is the same but a shorter baggage door due to wheel wells.

 

[N801BH]

The wing side is beefy, the cabin side not so much. The 'kota had a crack on the front attachment point. Fortunately for me the crack was found on the pre-buy and the previous owner got to pay for repairs. The repair was a complete R/R of the the attachment rib. I got to see everything after the disassembly for repair.

I agree, pictures would be educational. I'm pretty sure I can kick a PA-28 door open after releasing the latches.

Me too..... In a New York minute.....

 

[Henning]

What do you mean? The 205 has two doors up front like a 172/182 and a single baggage door that can be used as a PAX door for kids. As far as I know there is no flaps/baggage door interference issue.

Did they do U and P versions of the 205 like they did the 206 with different door configurations?

 

[mikea]

I find myself amazed that so few planes had two real doors. On the 310 that'd be a nice asset.

The door adds weight and negatively affects the fuselage integrity. I'll trade the door for some more structure....on second thought in my old age I can use a door on my side.

 

[bnt83]

Did they do U and P versions of the 205 like they did the 206 with different door configurations?

Nope. All the 205s are actually on the 210 TCDS, their real name is 210-5 built from 1963 to 1964.

The 206 is on a different TCDS even tho the early years still had a hump on the nose bowl and I believe a few early early 206 also have two doors on the front.

 

[Henning]

Nope. All the 205s are actually on the 210 TCDS, their real name is 210-5 built from 1963 to 1964.

The 206 is on a different TCDS even tho the early years still had a hump on the nose bowl and I believe a few early early 206 also have two doors on the front.

He's probably thinking about the 206. The P-206 has 2 front doors, the U-206 has the big double back doors on the right. That was a nice thing with the BN-Islander, no shortage of doors.

 

[bnt83]

He's probably thinking about the 206. The P-206 has 2 front doors, the U-206 has the big double back doors on the right. That was a nice thing with the BN-Islander, no shortage of doors.

I really like the 205. The IO470 and that airframe seem like a pretty good match. I really like the door arrangement too. I wish my cowling came off that easy.

 

[Alexb2000]

Re: the 206 can have two front doors and rear barn doors for the ultimate in egress options. The front passenger door is an STC from Wipaire.

 

[bnt83]

Re: the 206 can have two front doors and rear barn doors for the ultimate in egress options. The front passenger door is an STC from Wipaire.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

But yeah, pretty cool.

 

[Henning]

I really like the 205. The IO470 and that airframe seem like a pretty good match. I really like the door arrangement too. I wish my cowling came off that easy.

If one could put a 205 on floats, I would likely get one. I thought it was a good plane and I could get up and down pretty efficiently with 7 jumpers.

 

[MAKG1]

Can you see two doors up front? The pilot's door is open and so is the window. This is a 205. There is only 1 door on the right and its the Copilot door same size as the left pilot door.

You're right. The one I used was a T206H. Not the same, though it does have the same 210 type certificate….

Helluva nice plane, but I did not like that cargo door at all.

 

[Lindberg]

This is surprising to you? It's a delta. I doubt they have a 24/7 ARFF crew sitting in the station all day waiting for the once per decade bad crash. Most deltas like this have equipment, but no dedicated crew. Airport operations staff are cross trained. They have to drop whatever they're doing, drive over to the station, get dressed, and jump in the truck. 2:45 to be rolling is pretty good!

I'm pretty sure dealing with himself and his child come before radioing in what everyone already knows to begin with.

It's a very busy delta. At least at onetime, it was the busiest GA runway in the country. The city's fire department is based and has a station on airport property. Three minutes seems like a reasonable response time for having no warning. But I don't know what their target is.

 

[Henning]

It's a very busy delta. At least at onetime, it was the busiest GA runway in the country. The city's fire department is based and has a station on airport property. Three minutes seems like a reasonable response time for having no warning. But I don't know what their target is.

3 minutes sounds reasonable to me, about the time it took them to get to me at Appleton.