June 12 Missouri - Beech A-36 crash

woodchucker

woodchucker

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woodchucker
I was in Vegas with the wife when this happened, so I don't know if this was already a thread (I looked but didn't see it).

The pilot's brother witnessed the crash. From the prelim report statement: He said that the airplane lifted off and then began a right turn toward an opening in the tree line at the departure end of the runway. The airplane then pitched up abruptly, rolled to the left and dove into the ground.

As a new pilot, I'm curious about potential causes. What type of event could result in an abrupt pitch up during the take-off phase? Other than the obvious of maybe trying to dodge a bird or cockpit distraction.
 
woodchucker said:
I was in Vegas with the wife when this happened, so I don't know if this was already a thread (I looked but didn't see it).

The pilot's brother witnessed the crash. From the prelim report statement: He said that the airplane lifted off and then began a right turn toward an opening in the tree line at the departure end of the runway. The airplane then pitched up abruptly, rolled to the left and dove into the ground.

As a new pilot, I'm curious about potential causes. What type of event could result in an abrupt pitch up during the take-off phase? Other than the obvious of maybe trying to dodge a bird or cockpit distraction.
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Lots of things that could cause it - do we know if it was a post mx flight?
 
DavidWhite said:
Lots of things that could cause it - do we know if it was a post mx flight?
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I don't think so. He had flown the family down to Missouri from Utah, and this flight was to return to Utah.

It's a private strip he was departing from, and thinking that there was a tree line he was trying to get around or over, maybe climbing at Vx in a bank, and just lost it? Would there be a pitch-up involved in that scenario, or is that maybe an eyewitness seeing something that didn't really happen?
 
My guess since they had visitors is that they were around gross on a high DA day and he wasn't climbing to clear the trees, headed for the gap and realized he still wouldn't clear and pulled back on the yoke some more and stalled it in. Just a guess, but a reminder that you need to take density altitude into serious account on every take off and never be complacent with the thought, "I've flown out of here many times just fine." and not make some performance calculations for a flight where conditions may be marginal.
 
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This kind of thing seems to happen substantially more often on "private grass strips.."
 
Here is some performance data to go with the prelim linked above.

Beechcraft A 36 Bonanza - Performance Data

Horsepower: 285 Gross Weight: 3600 lbs
Top Speed: 179 kts Empty Weight: 2195 lbs
Cruise Speed: 168 kts Fuel Capacity: 74 gal
Stall Speed (dirty): 52 kts Range: 697 nm

Takeoff Landing
Ground Roll: 1140 ft Ground Roll 840 ft
Over 50 ft obstacle: 2040ft Over 50 ft obstacle: 1450 ft

Rate Of Climb: 1030 fpm
Ceiling: 16600 ft
 
dans2992 said:
This kind of thing seems to happen substantially more often on "private grass strips.."
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Well, that would make sense as the typically are shorter and have higher (and variable) rolling resistance, as well as no TERPS like requirements.
 
Do the performance tables have the usual "add 10% for grass operations" or similar?
 
He had flown in and out of there a lot of times in the past. Could be a combination of DA plus softer ground from all the rain the Midwest has had this year had an affect.
 
Notwithstanding this particular event.

Having said that, a departure stall is often coupled with short, grass, unimproved strips. The pilot operating near the max gross, hot day and they get nervous and pull it off too soon. Flying on the back side of the power curve, and speed decays too fast, high torque and over it goes. Nothing magic about it, just not enough flying speed. Also affected by ground effect, flap retract, gear retract.
 
docmirror said:
Notwithstanding this particular event.

Having said that, a departure stall is often coupled with short, grass, unimproved strips. The pilot operating near the max gross, hot day and they get nervous and pull it off too soon. Flying on the back side of the power curve, and speed decays too fast, high torque and over it goes. Nothing magic about it, just not enough flying speed. Also affected by ground effect, flap retract, gear retract.
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Yep, and it gets exasperated with "soft field" technique where people hold the nose up.
 
Technique I read about that works is aim right for the tree tops. You only have to clear them by a few feet.

Get off and in ground effect ASAP and aim straight for the top of the trees. Hold it and gain speed.
 
txflyer said:
Technique I read about that works is aim right for the tree tops. You only have to clear them by a few feet.

Get off and in ground effect ASAP and aim straight for the top of the trees. Hold it and gain speed.
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Yes, but you could aim for the treetops all day, if the performance isn't there, you will never clear them. Of course there is always room for 'piloting technique', but that only gets one so far.
 
sourdough44 said:
Yes, but you could aim for the treetops all day, if the performance isn't there, you will never clear them. Of course there is always room for 'piloting technique', but that only gets one so far.
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Aiming immediately for the tops, you may be screwing yourself depending on the lift off speed. You want to make sure you have at least Vx before pulling the nose up.

This is also where preflight take off brief discipline comes in in figuring out "If not at 'x' speed, by 'x' point, abort."
 
Could have been a CG shift, though in most GA pax planes that won't cause anything too crazy.

Remember this one

http://theaviationist.com/2013/04/30/bagram-crash-video/


As for clearing the tree line, Ive always just stayed in ground effect, full power and aimed right for the trees, built up speed and pitched for best climb. Mushing along trying to climb isn't the best choice.

Ether way RIP
 
James331 said:
Could have been a CG shift, though in most GA pax planes that won't cause anything too crazy.

Remember this one

http://theaviationist.com/2013/04/30/bagram-crash-video/


As for clearing the tree line, Ive always just stayed in ground effect, full power and aimed right for the trees, built up speed and pitched for best climb. Mushing along trying to climb isn't the best choice.

Ether way RIP
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Some of these techniques may help, but is this something you want to count on with your family onboard? The answer is NO!

I realize these are just mentioned as things that could help. This chain could of possibly been broken the evening prior to the planned departure. Yes, investigation still ongoing.
 
Elaborating on the tree top effect, it goes on to say as PIC you should know when to abort. Usually that's half way if you are not up and off, but in certain circumstances it can be less.

Downhill grade:
High DA:
High load:
Draggy turf:
All of the above:

.... you may need to abort more like 1/4 of the strip if you're not flying.

It's a guestimate that can be expressed mathematically using the POA, but it's still a guesstimate. It pretty much comes down to seat-of-the-pants and how it feels and how quick the trees are filling the window. You have to make the decision in about two seconds and shut 'er down or pull her off and say Murphy's prayer. "oh lord please don't let me **** up!"
 
sourdough44 said:
Some of these techniques may help, but is this something you want to count on with your family onboard? The answer is NO!

I realize these are just mentioned as things that could help. This chain could of possibly been broken the evening prior to the planned departure. Yes, investigation still ongoing.
Click to expand...

Accelerating in ground effect and building up speed before starting a pitch up? Yeah that's how I do it, especially with family on board.
 
txflyer said:
Elaborating on the tree top effect, it goes on to say as PIC you should know when to abort. Usually that's half way if you are not up and off, but in certain circumstances it can be less.

Downhill grade:
High DA:
High load:
Draggy turf:
All of the above:

.... you may need to abort more like 1/4 of the strip if you're not flying.

It's a guestimate that can be expressed mathematically using the POA, but it's still a guesstimate. It pretty much comes down to seat-of-the-pants and how it feels and how quick the trees are filling the window. You have to make the decision in about two seconds and shut 'er down or pull her off and say Murphy's prayer. "oh lord please don't let me **** up!"
Click to expand...

Then there comes the really tough abort, when the wheels are off the ground, and the obstacle is going up in the windshield still, now you have to decide to chop, drop and scrub off as much energy as possible before you hit.
 
James331 said:
Accelerating in ground effect and building up speed before starting a pitch up? Yeah that's how I do it, especially with family on board.
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On a soft field take off, you can get the wheels off before Vx in most planes, if you don't drop the nose a bit you may be trying to accelerate from a position of being 'behind the power curve' if your short field technique is sub par. It's not so much accelerating in ground effect a long way for a zoom climb at Vy+20, but rather a relaxing of back pressure after you get the wheels out of the bog and getting the plane to Vx in the shortest time/distance possible. If you just hold the nosewheel off the muck on the take off, typically you don't have to, but if you are flying and aren't making Vx and climbing well enough, then maybe you do.
 
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