Journalist Seeking Info About Maintenance of Commercial Pilot License

lhusten@gmail.com

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Larry Husten
I am a medical journalist (www.cardiobrief.org) writing an article about the maintenance of certification requirements for physicians. I would like to compare their current requirements (very controversial) with the current requirements for commercial airline pilots. How much training, education, testing, and oversight do the FAA and the big airlines require their pilots to undergo? How difficult is this process? Do many pilots give up? I am not asking about general aviation pilots or other types. I am specifically interested in the requirements for the pilots who fly the big commercial airlines.

Thanks for any help you can provide. Hope this request is not unwelcome in this community.
 
There are several ATPs ( Air Transport Pilots) the guys that fly the large commercial airliners on this board so they will chime in on what the requirements are. I think the real issue is not so much keeping up with the requirements but the hoops that one has to jump through if they have a medical issue that grounds them.

You may also wish to contact Dr. Bruce Chein a well known AME ( Aviation Medical Examiner) who has been involved with several medical polices adopted by the FAA. Bruce can be reached at http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com/

Good luck with your article. When you publish it please post a copy here or at least a link to the article.
 
Thanks, Adam. I'm not really concerned with the medical examination, though I'm sure that's an important concern of pilots. I'm really trying to figure out how much education, re-education, training, and testing the big commercial pilots need to undergo.
 
The airline guys will be on here shortly. In short, the training that they go through is very intense
 
You might want to browse around here RE: medicals.

A ATP flying for a airline will need to hold a 1st class medical
A ATP flying for a smaller aircrsft charter can often only need to hold a 2nd class
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/

Training, well there is a high washout rate for folks trying to just become a Private Pilot, for the ones who decide to go commerical and end up lasting past their 250hrs to have 500hrs after their first job, the number goes down further, the ones who last it out to 1500hrs to get their ATP, lower.

It's a tuff industry to make it in, many low time pilots probably make 2k or less a month, after paying around 60k for flight training, relocation for work is just a given.

Once a pilot makes it to the airlines or a charter company (FAA 121 airline or 135 charter), they will have to renew their medical every year or every 6 months based on their age, they will also have to demonstrate their proficiency as a pilot every 6 months to a company check airman.

-ATP 135 pilot.
 
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You might want to browse around here RE: medicals.

A ATP flying for a airline will need to hold a 1st class medical
A ATP flying for a smaller aircrsft charter can often only need to hold a 2nd class
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/

Training, well there is a high washout rate for folks trying to just become a Private Pilot, for the ones who decide to go commerical and end up lasting past their 250hrs to have 500hrs after their first job, the number goes down further, the ones who last it out to 1500hrs to get their ATP, lower.

It's a tuff industry to make it in, many low time pilots probably make 2k or less a month, after paying around 60k for flight training, relocation for work is just a given.

Once a pilot makes it to the airlines or a charter company (FAA 121 airline or 135 charter), they will have to renew their medical every year or every 6 months based on their age, they will also have to demonstrate their proficiency as a pilot every 6 months to a company check airman.

The OP is confusing. I too thought medical requirements as did the first reply. I believe what he/she is trying to do is compare and contrast what it takes to stay current as a 121 pilot vs what it takes for an MD to stay current. I.e.how many times do you head to the sim and practice engine out scenarios etc...

OP one of the most difficult and career threatening requirements is a Class I medical. Cant have that, your career is gone. It has to be renewed, for the most part, every 6 months. And that's why people see "medical" in your post and head down that path. Iwouldn't gloss over it.
 
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I think Larry is asking a two part question. How do you get there and how do you stay there.
To the OP. First you have to have an Airline Transport Rating (ATP). This is considerably harder to get than a simple Commercial licence. Second is the recurrent training which in short is simulator recurrent training every six months. There will be some ATP guys along shortly to give you specifics. When you see reference to 121, that is referring to Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) part 121 which governs transport aircraft known as the airlines.

On a side note there are lots of "commercial operations" that fall under different FAR's. FAR 135 governs charter for example. You can also have corporate operations where the pilot is required to have a simple commercial certificate and operates under FAR 91. This is the very broad and simplified picture. ATP's will be along shortly.
 
I don't think MD's have any sort of continuing state imposed medical requirements unless their hospital or medical group requires it . . . .

Also - the FAA has a uniform federal requirement for medical certification whereas docs are individual state certified . . . .

California had a proposition on the ballot requiring drug testing of docs - not sure where that went but knowing the idiot voters here it probably passed cause it 'sounded good.'
 
I am a medical journalist (www.cardiobrief.org) writing an article about the maintenance of certification requirements for physicians.

I think Dr. Chien would be an excellent resource for this. Besides being a physician and Aviation Medical Examiner, he is a commercial pilot and flight instructor. He knows what airline pilot hiring/training/recurrent hoops must be jumped thru as well as the medical hoops.
 
Thanks, Adam. I'm not really concerned with the medical examination, though I'm sure that's an important concern of pilots. I'm really trying to figure out how much education, re-education, training, and testing the big commercial pilots need to undergo.

Captain does recurrent twice a year, FO once a year IIRC. Before you get in an airline seat, you have 1500hrs of flight time with over 100 hours of specific flight training (the ratio of study to flight time is various but 12:1 would be a good median number) towards ratings required, along with written, oral, and practical tests. A pilot will have gone through a minimum of 4 training/testing cycles, and likely 7 if they have their Flight Instructor ratings, common for building time between the 250hrs for Commercial where you can start working, and 1500hrs to get the ATP certificate.

With that certificate now, they can apply to an airline. When they get hired, they will have to do their initial training. Depending on the airline's acquisition and need schedule, class sizes, and simulators for the type available, this takes between 2.5 months and 6 months from what I have seen to get completed. This is rather intensive training specific to the aircraft type and systems as well as company procedures. After some time, typically 3 years or longer, the First Officer gets bumped up to Captain. They now go through Type Rating training on the aircraft which is an even more intense program than the last.

This process repeats itself for every aircraft type, and airline, the pilot moves to. Of course, as I mentioned earlier, the pilots also get pulled on schedule for recurrent training which is typically a couple of weeks per cycle.
 
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I think Dr. Chien would be an excellent resource for this. Besides being a physician and Aviation Medical Examiner, he is a commercial pilot and flight instructor. He knows what airline pilot hiring/training/recurrent hoops must be jumped thru as well as the medical hoops.

Bruce is actually an ATP and Flight Instructor.
 
I would like to compare their current requirements (very controversial) with the current requirements for commercial airline pilots.

One thing worth noting is that sometime in the last couple of years the FAA started requiring all scheduled airline pilots to have Airline Transport Pilot Certificates. (think Doctor with a year or two of post Medical school training and experience) Prior that that change the copilots could have a Commercial Pilot Certificate, which is easier to obtain (think new MD graduate).

Starting last summer the FAA made the Airline Transport Pilot Certificate significantly harder to get, as if the government starting requiring Medical School to last another couple of semesters.

The training and currency requirements for professional pilots varies, but in all cases each company will have an FAA approved training plan for initial hires and currency. And in all cases this training is intense and demanding.

I have a similar question for our pilot/medical professionals. Pilots have the Pilot Records Improvement Act of 1996 (PRIA), which requires aviation companies to maintain training records on each employed pilot, and to pass these records to any future employer.

Do medical professionals have anything like that?
 
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One more thing, what kind of comparison are you making between medicine and flying with regards to training requirements?
 
One thing worth noting is that sometime in the last couple of years the FAA started requiring all scheduled airline pilots to have Airline Transport Pilot Certificates. (think Doctor with a year or two of post Medical school training and experience) Prior that that change the copilots could have a Commercial Pilot Certificate, which is easier to obtain (think new MD graduate).

Starting last summer the FAA made the Airline Transport Pilot Certificate significantly harder to get, as if the government starting requiring Medical School to last another couple of semesters.

The training and currency requirements for professional pilots varies, but in all cases each company will have an FAA approved training plan for initial hires and currency. And in all cases this training is intense and demanding.

I have a similar question for our pilot/medical professionals. Pilots have the Pilot Records Improvement Act of 1996 (PRIA), which requires aviation companies to maintain training records on each employed pilot, and to pass these records to any future employer.

Do medical professionals have anything like that?

During that time they serve 1250 hrs as an intern in the right seat anyway. Personally I think the 1500 for the right seat was a bad move for the overall industry safety.
 
You guys are likely feeding the enemy. They ain't ever your friend and will write it up to suit their own purpose.
 
You guys are likely feeding the enemy. They ain't ever your friend and will write it up to suit their own purpose.

They will do that regardless. If they have correct information though, they have the choice to use it correctly, without that information the choice does not exist.
 
Hi Guys,

Thanks so much for all the responses. To clarify, I am only interested now in what already established, mid-career pilots for commercial carriers have to do to keep flying. And I'm not interested in the medical exam part of this process. I want to know how much and what type of continuing education and training the FAA and the airlines require. Is that clear?

Best,

Larry
 
Hi Guys,

Thanks so much for all the responses. To clarify, I am only interested now in what already established, mid-career pilots for commercial carriers have to do to keep flying. And I'm not interested in the medical exam part of this process. I want to know how much and what type of continuing education and training the FAA and the airlines require. Is that clear?

Best,

Larry

Mid Career Airline Pilot will typically see a couple of weeks of intensive recurrent training, both classroom on systems and operational issues, as well as simulator training and review of emergency and out of the ordinary situations.

All in all, I would say when compared to the body of knowledge and skill required to perform each job to a high standard, airline pilots have a higher ratio of recurrent training hours to volume of knowledge. This is mostly skewed because the volume of knowledge required in medicine is not on a scale comparable with aviation, and I don't think reaching similar levels in medicine would be possible; maybe if you had a really small sub specialty. It really does not require a huge body of knowledge to be a safe pilot within the airline structure. Many of your decisions are made for you.
 
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Thanks so much, iHenning. I think I have the basic information I now need. I really appreciate everyone's help.

... and I completely agree with your assessment. It's very hard to compare medical doctors and pilots since medicine and aviation are so different. Nevertheless I think there are useful analogies that may be drawn.

Best,

Larry
 
Thanks so much, iHenning. I think I have the basic information I now need. I really appreciate everyone's help.

... and I completely agree with your assessment. It's very hard to compare medical doctors and pilots since medicine and aviation are so different. Nevertheless I think there are useful analogies that may be drawn.

Best,

Larry

There are, and there are even more useless ones.:lol:

One could conclude that pilots are dumber than doctors and need more training. You could also calculate the kill rate and figure out whether doctors or pilots kill more people per capita. That would be a fun statistic. "The 10 most Dangerous Jobs... To Others; and what it takes to train this killers. Next on Discovery Channel.":rofl:
 
There are, and there are even more useless ones.:lol:

One could conclude that pilots are dumber than doctors and need more training. You could also calculate the kill rate and figure out whether doctors or pilots kill more people per capita. That would be a fun statistic. "The 10 most Dangerous Jobs... To Others; and what it takes to train this killers. Next on Discovery Channel.":rofl:

Oh boy, don't get me started. I will try to use only the good analogies and throw out the bad ones.

I hope this doesn't come out sounding the wrong way but no matter how you look at it doctors almost certainly kill more people than almost anyone else. But they also save more people than anyone else, and we hope the second figure is at least a magnitude of order higher than the first.
 
Oh boy, don't get me started. I will try to use only the good analogies and throw out the bad ones.

I hope this doesn't come out sounding the wrong way but no matter how you look at it doctors almost certainly kill more people than almost anyone else. But they also save more people than anyone else, and we hope the second figure is at least a magnitude of order higher than the first.

By the nature of the work, Doctors will almost certainly kill more people than anyone else. You pretty much need organized culling as population control or cannibalism to not.

Doctors don't exactly have an easy job, and there are a good few doctors who don't particularly have the required intelligence to be able to do the job well. Our educational system has plenty of gaps that one can buy their way through into a career they aren't suited for. Unfortunately, medicine can be a highly lucrative field, so you will have a percentage who are just there for the money. They can do enough damage that they can really mess with averages across an industry.

What is lacking in pilot testing is reaction type to imminent death stress. There are two basic reactions that people will have. From appearances you have the same type reaction for perpetuity, it's in your wiring. One type disassociates from the experience. They freeze up, and for them it's like they are watching it happen in a movie, there they are.

The other is the time dilator. Everything is dead calm and peaceful, you just think clearly about your options, make choices, commit actions, all very matter of fact, like when I went in the oats, 'tail down, wings level, keep her in a straight line' as well as many things leading up to that. The interesting thing is I know my entry speed into the oats, and I could measure my track in them from the beginning to where the plane came to rest. I can also remember every thought and action clearly, and can replay them against a stop watch. When I measure the tracks and do the math, I come up with 1.3 seconds. When I think the thoughts in 'standard time', the stopwatch says 15 seconds. I am far from the only person that reports this reaction/affect.

You don't often hear about people that disassociate describing their crash experiences, because they typically don't survive. "Fly the plane as far into the crash as you can." Is the key to survival. A good example of disassociation can be found in the CVR transcript of Air France 447. There were 3 pilots in one cockpit who all disassociated, and it cost everyone their lives. This accident was recoverable all the way to the very end. If the guy in the left seat had put the nose down and the power to full at 12,000' when he took it over, he could have still saved it, but he just leveled the wings and held the nose high stall.:dunno:

If they would have had one "Time Dilator" in the cockpit, they would have been fine. Heck, if when the Captain got to the cockpit he reached in and pushed the stick forward, they would have been fine.

This is the quality I think needs to be tested for at the Capt/Command ATP level if we want to improve safety further than exists today, which honestly isn't too bad. One issue is that the military used to provide over half the pilots that the airlines got. Both by the nature of military training and a military career, most of the 'dis associative' reacting people got washed out of the pilot pool before they got to the airlines. Civilian training does not provide the same standards and you can be a career airline captain and never know how you would react to a death stress.
 
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Larry, Henning knows everything about everything (just ask him) so anything said by anyone else should be discounted as bovine scat :rolleyes:
 
Larry, Henning knows everything about everything (just ask him) so anything said by anyone else should be discounted as bovine scat :rolleyes:

Yeah, God forbid a journalist was actually directed to real issues behind the hype.:rolleyes2:
 
Captain does recurrent twice a year, FO once a year IIRC.

Wrong.

They now go through Type Rating training on the aircraft which is an even more intense program than the last.

The majority of airlines are issuing full type ratings (no SIC Types) to both crew members during initial and upgrade.

This process repeats itself for every aircraft type, and airline, the pilot moves to. Of course, as I mentioned earlier, the pilots also get pulled on schedule for recurrent training which is typically a couple of weeks per cycle.

Wrong on this as well.

Yeah, God forbid a journalist was actually directed to real issues behind the hype.:rolleyes2:

What this journalist needs to understand is he's getting wrong info from a sciolist.
 
So, what is your recurrent schedule?

Mine is 3 days Ground, 2 days Sim. Once a year.

Same for the FO.

Most airlines are going or have gone to distant learning, the pilot completes courses online during the year to reduce recurrent ground training classroom time.
 
Oh boy, don't get me started. I will try to use only the good analogies and throw out the bad ones.

I hope this doesn't come out sounding the wrong way but no matter how you look at it doctors almost certainly kill more people than almost anyone else. But they also save more people than anyone else, and we hope the second figure is at least a magnitude of order higher than the first.

I don't know...every time I land, in my mind, I have 'saved' the lives of everyone on board. Why just a few minutes prior to the landing everyone was as a lethal height traveling at a lethal speed in an environment that does not work well for life...minus 50 degrees and not enough air pressure for sustained consciousness.

And I successfully got everybody out of that deadly environment and delivered them safely to a nice warm terminal. I'd estimate I saved the lives of well over 10,000 people a year at the airlines.

And do I get a medal? No, just a bunch of slack from fellow posters here on PoA.

:)
 
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I think you're in the wrong place for your type of question. This forum is more for General Aviation types. What most journalists disparagingly refer to as "Puddle Jumpers". Suggest you try your question at PPrune or Airline Central instead.

However as 777 pilot for a major airline I will tell you that my airline requires a continuous 9 month rotating simulator check. There is a short two day event and then a longer three day event. In addition to this there is required computer based continuing education every quarter. Then occasionally (usually in reaction to some kind of screw-up) the training department dreams up a one day class that highlights a specific area of concern.
 
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