Joining an arrival using a GTN 750

[the400kid]

I recently flew into KSPG (Whitted field in St Petersburg) coming from Hollywood, KHWO. The route took me to THNDR, JAYMC, LAL and then direct.

Along the course line and just west of KSEF, the controller asked that I join the Bridge 8 arrival. Being new to the GTN I entered the arrival and chose the transition as LBV (LaBelle) since it was essentially behind me. What I'm not sure about is how to activate and fly it. To properly fly it should I have activated the leg to Rogan or Brdge and flown to either of those fixes - or - just put the A/P in heading mode and intercept the magenta course line?

In the end I did the latter, heading toward an intercept point, then joining the airway.

 

[WDD]

Is there a "Vectors to Final" type of option for joining an Arrival? I've never looked to be honest. If you put in the Arrival and then activated the leg once you got to the fix (of what you were activating) would that work?

 

[asicer]

I recently flew into KSPG (Whitted field in St Petersburg) coming from Hollywood, KHWO. The route took me to THNDR, JAYMC, LAL and then direct.

Along the course line and just west of KSEF, the controller asked that I join the Bridge 8 arrival. Being new to the GTN I entered the arrival and chose the transition as LBV (LaBelle) since it was essentially behind me. What I'm not sure about is how to activate and fly it. To properly fly it should I have activated the leg to Rogan or Brdge and flown to either of those fixes - or - just put the A/P in heading mode and intercept the magenta course line?

In the end I did the latter, heading toward an intercept point, then joining the airway.

I would use the GTN's "activate leg" feature on LBV-ROGAN and then fly towards that segment.

 

[RussR]

"Activate Leg" would be likely best option, unless of course they told you "direct XXX, join the arrival".

 

[luvflyin]

I recently flew into KSPG (Whitted field in St Petersburg) coming from Hollywood, KHWO. The route took me to THNDR, JAYMC, LAL and then direct.

Along the course line and just west of KSEF, the controller asked that I join the Bridge 8 arrival. Being new to the GTN I entered the arrival and chose the transition as LBV (LaBelle) since it was essentially behind me. What I'm not sure about is how to activate and fly it. To properly fly it should I have activated the leg to Rogan or Brdge and flown to either of those fixes - or - just put the A/P in heading mode and intercept the magenta course line?

In the end I did the latter, heading toward an intercept point, then joining the airway.

What exactly was the last clearance you had received before getting "join the Bridge 8?" Where you still on a JAYMC LAL leg? Can you be a little more specific about where "just west of KSEF" was?

 

[the400kid]

What exactly was the last clearance you had received before getting "join the Bridge 8?" Where you still on a JAYMC LAL leg? Can you be a little more specific about where "just west of KSEF" was?

Yes, was still on JAYMC - LAL leg. I mentioned KSEF only to give an idea of where along the line I was when the join Bridge 8 clearance was issued.

 

[midlifeflyer]

"Activate Leg" would be likely best option, unless of course they told you "direct XXX, join the arrival".

Exactly.

But to take off on your "direct..." comment, I would be a bit surprised if the instruction didn't include a heading to join, even if the heading was given previously. Based on the description, the OP was already past the point where an intercept was on the current route.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I recently flew into KSPG (Whitted field in St Petersburg) coming from Hollywood, KHWO. The route took me to THNDR, JAYMC, LAL and then direct.

Along the course line and just west of KSEF, the controller asked that I join the Bridge 8 arrival.
***
In the end I did the latter, heading toward an intercept point, then joining the airway.

As others said, the standard way to join a leg of anything is "activate leg." That's pretty uniform whether Garmin GNS, GTN, G1000, Avidyne IFD, whatever (even most EFBs).

But the problem I alluded to is this. There's something missing. According to you, you were on the JAYMC LAL leg just west of KSEF. That puts you heading northeast at just about the yellow dot on the picture. If I were further southeast on that leg, just past JAYMC, you are in an intercept to the PHK (off the chart to the lower right) - BRIDGE leg of the procedure.

But you say you are already well past that. I would have expected something like "Direct BRIDGE" or "fly heading XXX" to join. I would have clarified what ATC wanted.

(PS. No you don't just put it in heading mode and intercept the situational awareness only magenta course line.)

 

[luvflyin]

As others said, the standard way to join a leg of anything is "activate leg." That's pretty uniform whether Garmin GNS, GTN, G1000, Avidyne IFD, whatever (even most EFBs).

But the problem I alluded to is this. There's something missing. According to you, you were on the JAYMC LAL leg just west of KSEF. That puts you heading northeast at just about the yellow dot on the picture. If I were further southeast on that leg, just past JAYMC, you are in an intercept to the PHK (off the chart to the lower right) - BRIDGE leg of the procedure.

But you say you are already well past that. I would have expected something like "Direct BRIDGE" or "fly heading XXX" to join. I would have clarified what ATC wanted.

(PS. No you don't just put it in heading mode and intercept the situational awareness only magenta course line.)

View attachment 104518

Here’s the pic I had drawn up yesterday. If it happened exactly as the OP said, it was a bad clearance from the Controller and it needed to be verified what he meant. To have just sprung the Bridge Eight Arrival out at that point, with no prior expectation of it, was wrong. Pilot needs to clarify first. Then the button pushing can begin. I’d bet the controllers intention was go direct BRDGE.

Pic won’t upload. Didn’t show much more than yours did anyway.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Here’s the pic I had drawn up yesterday. If it happened exactly as the OP said, it was a bad clearance from the Controller and it needed to be verified what he meant. To have just sprung the Bridge Eight Arrival out at that point, with no prior expectation of it, was wrong. Pilot needs to clarify first. Then the button pushing can begin. I’d bet the controllers intention was go direct BRDGE.

Pic won’t upload. Didn’t show much more than yours did anyway.

I don't need the pic to agree with you completely!

 

[WDD]

Would it have been simpler to 1) Direct to BRDGE, and then 2) Load and Activate the 18 RNAV approach? That should take you to the PIE VOTAC, which is where the BRDGE Arrival also takes you. Probably already had that approach Loaded but not Activated anyway.

OR Would you load the Bridge 8 Arrival, pull it up and Activate the BRDGE-JSTRM leg? Would that have the GTN direct you straight to BRDGE to begin the leg (and at the same time have the Arrival become "Active"?

(Assuming you confirmed with ATC that going direct to BRDGE was what they wanted).

 

[the400kid]

The clearance was sprung up on me out of the blue and I wasn't expecting it, being my first time to that area of the state. But based on the various responses here, I can see that the next time I'm in that situation that I need to clarify with the controller exactly what he or she wants.

 

[luvflyin]

Would it have been simpler to 1) Direct to BRDGE, and then 2) Load and Activate the 18 RNAV approach? That should take you to the PIE VOTAC, which is where the BRDGE Arrival also takes you. Probably already had that approach Loaded but not Activated anyway.

OR Would you load the Bridge 8 Arrival, pull it up and Activate the BRDGE-JSTRM leg? Would that have the GTN direct you straight to BRDGE to begin the leg (and at the same time have the Arrival become "Active"?

(Assuming you confirmed with ATC that going direct to BRDGE was what they wanted).

I was thinking about things to do to deal with it. All of them pretty much start out with saying "unable" when getting the Arrival sprung on me like that. What Approach you're going to do is certainly the key point. @the400kid , what Approach did you get?

 

[Tantalum]

"activate leg" .. or if you've totally FUBAR'd yourself (which I've done) ask for a vector to join the final and hit activate-vectors-to-final and then intercept and follow that

PS, if you're flying an ILS don't forget to switch the CDI, AND, don't forget to ensure the correct frequency is loaded on NAV

 

[midlifeflyer]

Would it have been simpler to 1) Direct to BRDGE, and then 2) Load and Activate the 18 RNAV approach? That should take you to the PIE VOTAC, which is where the BRDGE Arrival also takes you. Probably already had that approach Loaded but not Activated anyway.

OR Would you load the Bridge 8 Arrival, pull it up and Activate the BRDGE-JSTRM leg? Would that have the GTN direct you straight to BRDGE to begin the leg (and at the same time have the Arrival become "Active"?

(Assuming you confirmed with ATC that going direct to BRDGE was what they wanted).

What's "simpler" in that situation depends on a few things. Leaving aside the unclear instruction for a moment, there's Pilot expectation/preparation and equipment familiarity. I know many pilots don't - mostly because it's not well-covered in training - but preflight planning should always include checking SIDs and STARs for potential applicability. After all, pretty much by definition, they are the standard ATC routes. Then, of course there's equipment familiarity.

Here's what I would do. Load the STAR with an appropriate transition behind me, and clarify how they want me to join.

 

[WDD]

IF you activated the STAR without selecting the appropriate leg to activate, would it try to fly you back to the start of the STAR? Appreciate the comments (and posts like this) - trying to get smarter with these GTN's.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Play the tapes!
Usually they give you "cleared direct xxxxx, join/descend via the arrival"
(load the arrival and then direct to xxxxx, there are at least 2 ways to perform this)

 

[luvflyin]

IF you activated the STAR without selecting the appropriate leg to activate, would it try to fly you back to the start of the STAR? Appreciate the comments (and posts like this) - trying to get smarter with these GTN's.

Good question. It does that on Approaches. Activate at your own risk. It's seldom needed. Loading is usually all you need. When you get within a certain distance of a segment, it self activates. I think. Maybe it's my reptilian 430 brain talkin here. Or maybe I'm just wrong. What say ya all y'all

 

[WDD]

I know that an approach will not self activate when you fly through the intercept if you have vectors to final.

 

[midlifeflyer]

IF you activated the STAR without selecting the appropriate leg to activate, would it try to fly you back to the start of the STAR? Appreciate the comments (and posts like this) - trying to get smarter with these GTN's.

Just like an instrument approach, a STAR has multiple initial transitions. And, like an approach, you load without activating anything. That's lets you load the STAR for your destination even before you take off. When folks on this three were talking about it being sudden, typically there will be an "expect" well before assigning it so you can check and load it. When you load it you select an appropriate transition based on where you are and where they ask you to join. Take this one.

Three transitions. Lee County, La Belle, and Pahokee. The colored dot is approximately where he placed himself. Let's suppose the instruction was to fly heading 270 to join. I'd select PHK as the transition (it's the closest one), load the STAR. Notice - I am still heading on course to JAYMC.


Once loaded, simply activate the leg for the intercept.

 

[WDD]

Great info! Taking this approach for an approach / instead of vectors to final, load the full approach but not activate.

When you get close and are told to fly from IF, activate. BUT if you’re given vectors to final, just pull up the unactivated approach and activate the leg prior to final.

Would that work? Any advantages to “vectors to final”?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Would that work? Any advantages to “vectors to final”?

I don't buy in to the anti-VTF mindset. I never load it to start but see nothing wrong with being given the final vector to intercept and hitting VTF. But advantages over "Activate Leg?" Not really. Disadvantages in certain situations, yes, but not advantages.

 

[Hang 4]

I don't buy in to the anti-VTF mindset. I never load it to start but see nothing wrong with being given the final vector to intercept and hitting VTF. But advantages over "Activate Leg?" Not really. Disadvantages in certain situations, yes, but not advantages.

I think a lot of the anti VTF thinking is based on the 430 vs the GTN's. It's a potential mess on a 430 if something changes after you hit VTF. It's a non-event with a GTN.

 

[WDD]

If you punched in the wrong leg to activate can you activate the the leg you really wanted and it will configure to that ? Or do you have to erase the flight plan and start all over ?

 

[midlifeflyer]

I think a lot of the anti VTF thinking is based on the 430 vs the GTN's. It's a potential mess on a 430 if something changes after you hit VTF. It's a non-event with a GTN.

It's not just the GNS, but yes, the anti VTF thinking is based on the loss of prior waypoints (and it's really only partly resolved in the newer Garmin boxes). But even then, the only problem is loading VTF initially. Somehow some people expanded it to a directive to "never" load VTF.

I don't load VTF and I don't switch to it either. But that's because I prefer the consistency of a single solution.

 

[midlifeflyer]

If you punched in the wrong leg to activate can you activate the the leg you really wanted and it will configure to that ? Or do you have to erase the flight plan and start all over ?

Again, it's exactly the same as an approach. It's just another procedure being added to the flight plan and it works exactly the same way. If you change approaches or get routed to an different transition, you don't erase the whole flight plan. You don't even have to remove the procedure. You just reload it with the new transition.

(Doing it with an IAP is on my IPC/transition task short list)

 

[BruceAir]

Others have already noted the essential steps for handling the situation described in the original question, but here's an (ancient) post at my blog that offers details: Flying a STAR with the GNS530W. That discussion uses the GNS 530W, but the logic remains the same with newer Garmin avionics such as the GTN and G1000. Do take care, however, when loading a STAR that serves multiple runways, as many do. For an example of a STAR that's routinely assigned even to lowly single-engine-piston pilots, see the MADEE FOUR at Bellingham, WA (KBLI)

For the VTF issue, see: Avoiding the Vectors-to-Final Scramble and the related (and newer) posts linked from that item.

 

[aterpster]

LPV availability can be tested by going to VTF when within 30 miles of the ARP. This would be useful only when there is a question about level of service.

 

[RussR]

BUT if you’re given vectors to final, just pull up the unactivated approach and activate the leg prior to final.

I did a one-off "checkride prep" flight with another CFI's student about 6 months ago. Garmin 430 in the plane. He did the "Activate Leg" when he got vectors to final, but he activated the leg ending at the runway. I almost corrected him, but noticed that the LPV guidance came up and everything looked normal, so I let it continue to see what happened.

What happened? Nothing, it worked fine. Just never seen it done that way before.

It did have the advantage of showing the distance to the runway for radio calls.
It of course had the disadvantage of not showing distance to the FAF (to me, not a real problem unless ATC asks you to report it). Also, if it had been an LNAV procedure with a stepdown, it wouldn't have shown distance to the stepdown fix, which is important, although every final SDF also shows the distance to the runway as part of the fix name, so really not that big of a deal either.

 

[WDD]

Interesting

I would rather have distance to FAF shown FWIW. But I also want - can’t find a way yet - to show distance to runway for the radio calls as well.

 

[Hang 4]

Interesting

I would rather have distance to FAF shown FWIW. But I also want - can’t find a way yet - to show distance to runway for the radio calls as well.

You have user configurable fields on your GTN, and also if you have Garmin Pilot or Foreflight can have those fields visible, Distance to Destination.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I did a one-off "checkride prep" flight with another CFI's student about 6 months ago. Garmin 430 in the plane. He did the "Activate Leg" when he got vectors to final, but he activated the leg ending at the runway. I almost corrected him, but noticed that the LPV guidance came up and everything looked normal, so I let it continue to see what happened.

What happened? Nothing, it worked fine. Just never seen it done that way before.

You made me look. Yep. t does the same with the GTN (at least the trainer).

 

[WDD]

You have user configurable fields on your GTN, and also if you have Garmin Pilot or Foreflight can have those fields visible, Distance to Destination.

I've got the FFlight to help. But on the map view I can't figure a way to configure the distance to airport. I get the distance to next waypoint, XTrack, etc. along with the heading and desired heading.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I've got the FFlight to help. But on the map view I can't figure a way to configure the distance to airport. I get the distance to next waypoint, XTrack, etc. along with the heading and desired heading.

You sort of can and sort of can't. In the bottom row of user-configured instruments (tap and hold on one of them and you'll see a pop-up menu), you will find choices for time and for distance to destination. The "can't" part is, the distance to destination is the route distance, not the straight line distance, so it's really only tells you what you want to know when you (and Foreflight) on on the extended FAC inbound. IOW, if you are outbound in a Hold-in-Lieu, the outbound distance will be added.

 

[WDD]

The "can't" part is, the distance to destination is the route distance, not the straight line distance, so it's really only tells you what you want to know when you (and Foreflight) on on the extended FAC inbound. IOW, if you are outbound in a Hold-in-Lieu, the outbound distance will be added.

Exactly

 

[Hang 4]

One way to get exact distance to an airport with a GTN is to hit Nearest then Airport. It it gives you distance and bearing, regardless of route. It's a pain, but it will give you what you are looking for. From a practical standpoint, distance to destination will work for most tower requests for distance - when you are on the approach course it's the same number. Will work for "call 4 mile final" or something like that.

 

[wayneda40]

One way to get exact distance to an airport with a GTN is to hit Nearest then Airport. It it gives you distance and bearing, regardless of route. It's a pain, but it will give you what you are looking for. From a practical standpoint, distance to destination will work for most tower requests for distance - when you are on the approach course it's the same number. Will work for "call 4 mile final" or something like that.

Agreed. An additional nice tool can be used on the PFD (G3X and G1000 for sure)... you can put "Nearest Airport" (although it might be "Destination Airport"??) on one of the 2 bearing pointers, and the current distance to that nearest airport (and bearing pointed to on the HSI) sits there constantly being updated right next to the HSI.

 

[asicer]

Agreed. An additional nice tool can be used on the PFD (G3X for sure; G1000 I'll have to verify)... you can put "Nearest Airport" on one of the 2 bearing pointers, and the current distance to that nearest airport (and bearing pointed to on the HSI) sits there constantly being updated right next to the HSI.

My Cessna Nav III Pilots Guide says it can only be switched between NAV, GPS or ADF. My vague recollection of the old-school G1000 says the same. I'll have to check the G1000NXi, but I think it's the same as the original.

 

[asicer]

One way to get exact distance to an airport with a GTN is to hit Nearest then Airport. It it gives you distance and bearing, regardless of route. It's a pain, but it will give you what you are looking for. From a practical standpoint, distance to destination will work for most tower requests for distance - when you are on the approach course it's the same number. Will work for "call 4 mile final" or something like that.

On the GTN, you can just configure one of the User Fields to "distance/bearing from destination airport" and have the info right there on the moving map.

 

[WDD]

Nice - but I don't think that's an option for the 650.