Job hunting tip #1

J

JOhnH

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
14,451
Location
Florida
Display Name
Display name:
Right Seater
It's ok to search out advertised positions and to apply to them, but in general that is the worst and most frustrating method.

I hate having to advertise for an open position. Almost all of my best employees have been those that applied randomly because they either had experience, talent or strong desire to work in my industry. I have learned to hire the really good ones whether I need them or not.

But I recently had an unexpected position open up due to an employee leaving, so I advertised.
Wow. The crazy, unqualified responses I get. I shouldn't be surprised because this always happens. So I spend about a minute with each resume. Some times less. Like the one I got today from Bangladesh. (I didn't even know that BGD was the country code for there). And he indicated he was NOT willing to relocate. --> reject!

Another 20 or 30 resumes went straight to the reject because I saw no hint of any of the requirements I specified.
Another dozen went straight to "reject" because I didn't like their writing style.
A bunch more went straight to reject because of a few typos.
Resume too long --> reject!

I took in almost 50 resume's today and I have ONE that I might respond to. If almost any of them contacted me a few weeks ago, I might have given them a closer look.

So, if you are looking for work, identify what you can do and where you want to work. Then identify employers that fit you profile, and apply there. Whether they are hiring or not. Better yet, try to find someway to network yourself into one of the hiring managers. But however you do it, show some initiative and desire. There are lots of jobs available, but most of the good ones are not advertised. And there is a good reason for that.

Just my rant for today.
But if anyone can give me a good template for responding to one of these rejects in a concise, polite and definite way, I would be happy to listen.
 
What industry?


Another possible recruitment method that worked for me recently when I needed production team members (folks who remove parts from cars) was to go out with some flyers and visit places that had folks like I need and ask them if they knew anyone who was looking. And I advertised I was willing to pay a $100 bounty for the referral if I hired them and they stayed on for 8 weeks.

I not only found a good mechanic that way, I also found someone who is now being trained to run the production team.

So if you are willing to add "leave the cave and hunt them down" to your methods, it can work.
 
Different industries have different methods. I use a mix of dock walkers that come up to the boat, calling around to see who is currently available to bring in, and a couple of globally used industry web boards. I never use any of the crewing agencies though.
 
Same thing happens on the seeker end.
My resume pretty clearly states what I want.

I get 10-20 emails a day with contract developer positions, most of which are hours or even states away.

I don't want a contract, I don't want to develop, and I have worked in the same area for almost 16 years.
 
How do all these people get your resume? Are you just mass mailing them, or do you have some sort of a service that mass mails them to every business with a published address?

I think that is part of the reason I get so many totally irrelevant resumes, with absolutely no relevance to what my stated requirements are.

Remember, my job advice is to target acceptable companies; not to mass mail generic resumes. "To whom it may concern" may not get a resume immediately rejected, but it is a step in that direction.

But as Henning and AggieMike pointed out, there can be a big difference in industries. And especially within professional categories. I can't just go down to the pet store and look for a qualified veterinarian that has 3 years experience working with cats only. And even if I found one that way, odds are they would not be the caliber I am looking for. That requires a nationwide search.
SixPapaCharlie said:
Same thing happens on the seeker end.
My resume pretty clearly states what I want.

I get 10-20 emails a day with contract developer positions, most of which are hours or even states away.

I don't want a contract, I don't want to develop, and I have worked in the same area for almost 16 years.
Click to expand...
 
That's something Departments of Labor/Employment could get together and institute, a user maintained and cross searchable data base of companies and individuals. You could even create an advanced matching system like eHarmoney type of thing, the logics are all the same, just different labels and algorithms. That would allow both applicants and employers the ability to target their searches for what they want, and even identify those currently available or hiring. The beauty is that you can also find who you want to talk to even if they are currently ok; you still have the contact details to be able to proposition them.

We have the ability to use our technology to so much greater advantage. All the database already exists, but we use it to spam people rather than help people.
 
JOhnH said:
But if anyone can give me a good template for responding to one of these rejects in a concise, polite and definite way, I would be happy to listen.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your interest in our company. We have received many highly qualified applications for our recently advertised position. We regret to inform you that we have selected another applicant, and the position is no longer available. We wish you all the best.
 
John, if it's really a qualified veterinarian you are looking for, reach out to the Vet college at Texas A&M. In addition to turning out good docs, they maintain a real tight community. It would be a very good place to start networking to find the candidate that fills your bill.
 
NoHeat said:
Thank you for your interest in our company. We have received many highly qualified applications for our recently advertised position. We regret to inform you that we have selected another applicant, and the position is no longer available. We wish you all the best.
Click to expand...
That's a good start. But I would need to work on the ending. This job search may take months and I want to be able to respond (even to the immediate rejects) in a timely fashion. I know what it's like to submit a resume/application and not get any response.
 
JOhnH said:
I took in almost 50 resume's today and I have ONE that I might respond to.
Click to expand...

Maybe part of the trouble is that you made it too easy to apply. So that applicants in Bangladesh will apply even if they have no hope. If you just add a small hurdle to jump, like a very short questionnaire to complete online, you might eliminate some of these.
 
NoHeat said:
Maybe part of the trouble is that you made it too easy to apply. So that applicants in Bangladesh will apply even if they have no hope. If you just add a small hurdle to jump, like a very short questionnaire to complete online, you might eliminate some of these.
Click to expand...
That is a good point, but I am using industry specific career centers (eg: AVMA; American Veterinary Medical Association). I have no way to implement such screening, and I don't have the resources to build such a screening device. Especially one that would pass muster with the EEOC.
My screening consists of only advertising to Veterinarians that are members of one of these organizations. Almost all veterinarians are affiliated with at least one of them. But I am looking for a small sub-set of veterinarians.
 
JOhnH said:
How do all these people get your resume? Are you just mass mailing them, or do you have some sort of a service that mass mails them to every business with a published address?

I think that is part of the reason I get so many totally irrelevant resumes, with absolutely no relevance to what my stated requirements are.

Remember, my job advice is to target acceptable companies; not to mass mail generic resumes. "To whom it may concern" may not get a resume immediately rejected, but it is a step in that direction.

But as Henning and AggieMike pointed out, there can be a big difference in industries. And especially within professional categories. I can't just go down to the pet store and look for a qualified veterinarian that has 3 years experience working with cats only. And even if I found one that way, odds are they would not be the caliber I am looking for. That requires a nationwide search.
Click to expand...


I have profiles on Monster and careerbuilder.
Also the people contacting me are 90% of the time, recruiters not businesses.
 
JOhnH said:
Just my rant for today.
But if anyone can give me a good template for responding to one of these rejects in a concise, polite and definite way, I would be happy to listen.
Click to expand...

Hello,

I'm not quite sure why you contacted me. You obviously have none of the qualifications I am looking for. Did you hit a 'Reply All' on something?

Let me give you some advice to help you find a job. First, check the grammar, spelling, and formatting of your resume, it's atrocious, and 2 pages max.

Next you have to read the job requirements and show where you are capable of fulfilling them.

You need to make the effort to personalize every introduction to the situation. That is what you do with your cover letter. You look at the requirements of the job and tie those to your resume, and tell them how you will apply your knowledge and experience to fulfill their requirements.

If you cannot do this, do not bother to apply, because you are wasting someone else's time, not just your own. With your submission, you wasted 10 minutes of my time, and I will never get that back.

Be kind and don't steal time from other's lives; put in the effort to show that you are willing to put in effort, and you will succeed in finding a good job. Now target your search for something you can, and want, to do, and put in the effort to get that job.

Good Luck,


JohnH

There's your template, you're welcome.
 
For a specialized position that requires a nation-wide search, why don't you just get a headhunter to help you out? Yes, it costs a little (but their fees are eminently negotiable), and you can spend your time on more productive matters.
 
JOhnH said:
I have no way to implement such screening, and I don't have the resources to build such a screening device.
Click to expand...

In the pre-internet days, there was a printed application form that applicants completed and then delivered to the employer. This effort was usually a sufficient hurdle to avoid a deluge of frivolous applications.

It seems ironic that the convenience of the internet is making things harder.

Will this work?

Using Word or another editor, create a questionnaire. Leave a blank space where you want to add some checkmark boxes or text boxes later.

Then, using Adobe Acrobat Pro (or whatever they call it now), open that document, and use the "Tools", select "Forms", and then add the desired "fields" which will be either a checkmark box to tick or a text box to type within. Close it, saving it as a pdf file.

Provide it to applicants, and ask them to complete the form and upload or email it to you.

I've never done this before, but it seems to me that it would work.
 
NoHeat said:
In the pre-internet days, there was a printed application form that applicants completed and then delivered to the employer. This effort was usually a sufficient hurdle to avoid a deluge of frivolous applications.

It seems ironic that the convenience of the internet is making things harder.

Will this work?

Using Word or another editor, create a questionnaire. Leave a blank space where you want to add some checkmark boxes or text boxes later.

Then, using Adobe Acrobat Pro (or whatever they call it now), open that document, and use the "Tools", select "Forms", and then add the desired "fields" which will be either a checkmark box to tick or a text box to type within. Close it, saving it as a pdf file.

Provide it to applicants, and ask them to complete the form and upload or email it to you.

I've never done this before, but it seems to me that it would work.
Click to expand...


Lot's of companies have an application page on their website.
 
Most of my jobs have ether been recommendations from people who know the company owner or phone calls to the owner.


Best option, recommend from someone who is tight with the boss

Second, walk in and shake hands with people

Third, targeted phone call, followed up with a email resume and follow up call/meeting

Fourth blind email resume or online application, I view this as a hail marry.
 
Flying Viking said:
For a specialized position that requires a nation-wide search, why don't you just get a headhunter to help you out? Yes, it costs a little (but their fees are eminently negotiable), and you can spend your time on more productive matters.
Click to expand...

This can work if you get a good headhunter.

My personal experience as an employer is that we made good use of headhunters until we achieved "critical mass" in our community. Now people watch for openings on our web site and contact folks they know here.

Before, we used about 6-8 different headhunting firms and we maintained a strictly enforced table to applicants and time/date stamps so we could tell which headhunter provided the name first. That's just to be fair to the headhunters. And the same resume WILL come from multiples if you use multiples.

Those 6-8 were winnowed down from probably 40 plus most of whom would spam us with resumes which weren't even close as soon as we had an opening. We dumped those ASAP. So, in my field, a few years ago, maybe 20% of the headhunters were passable and really only 2-3 were consistently good.

So it can work, but find a good one.

John
 
AggieMike88 said:
John, if it's really a qualified veterinarian you are looking for, reach out to the Vet college at Texas A&M. In addition to turning out good docs, they maintain a real tight community. It would be a very good place to start networking to find the candidate that fills your bill.
Click to expand...

Washington State University turns out excellent veterinarians. Now, I admit my bias, my dad taught there for 30 years. And he came out of UC Davis in the 2nd class to graduate from that school when it was brand new after WWII, so their program back then did well for him.

What specialty are you looking for? ACVS might also be a start if you are looking for a surgeon.

Best of luck. And, to the OP's current screen name, I am retiring on June 1. :yes::D
 
Networking and referrals. Put the word out to those that you know that are already in the industry.

In my field, there are a gazillion people that are technically qualified to work for me but my company takes a certain mentality due to the subset of the industry that we are in. Finding the right mentality AND experience we need is a like finding a needle in a haystack in an open search.

Haven't bothered listing a job opening in years. Rather I put the word out to everyone that is currently working for us and has worked for us in the past for referrals if anyone they know is looking since they know more than anyone what the job takes and who would be a good fit.

That is why I also tell job seekers why networking is more important than anything as something like 70% of the job opening out there are never even posted publicly and filled within or on referrals.
 
My Grandpa used to say, "The horse that farts will never tire. The man that farts is the man to hire!"

Maybe that'll help you out?:dunno:




Sorry...just had to!:rofl:
 
AggieMike88 said:
John, if it's really a qualified veterinarian you are looking for, reach out to the Vet college at Texas A&M. In addition to turning out good docs, they maintain a real tight community. It would be a very good place to start networking to find the candidate that fills your bill.
Click to expand...

Or Oklahoma State up in my neck of the woods.

I'm surprised you're having problems finding small animal vets. There is a small-animal clinic on every corner. Large animal vets, on the other hand. . .
 
JBHusted said:
Or Oklahoma State up in my neck of the woods.

I'm surprised you're having problems finding small animal vets. There is a small-animal clinic on every corner. Large animal vets, on the other hand. . .
Click to expand...
My point wasn't that I'm having a problem finding good vets. We are looking for a very special person, and we will find them. My point was that too many people only look for advertised positions whether they fit their qualifications or not. Most good jobs are unadvertised. But most people only respond to advertisements and then wonder why they get overlooked.

My point was that responding to an advertisement, and then waiting for a call is a waste of time. When you respond to an advertisement, you are going to be competing with thousands of others for the same position. Instead use some initiative and look for a place you want to work, and then sell yourself to them.
 
JOhnH said:
My point wasn't that I'm having a problem finding good vets. We are looking for a very special person, and we will find them. My point was that too many people only look for advertised positions whether they fit their qualifications or not. Most good jobs are unadvertised. But most people only respond to advertisements and then wonder why they get overlooked.

My point was that responding to an advertisement, and then waiting for a call is a waste of time. When you respond to an advertisement, you are going to be competing with thousands of others for the same position. Instead use some initiative and look for a place you want to work, and then sell yourself to them.
Click to expand...

Well, I gave you the copy and paste you asked for...
 
Not true for me. If you apply for a job I don't have open, not only are you not getting the job, you're getting filed under "wasted my precious time and not to be hired later."

Harsh, but I'm too busy to play games with people that think I can create a job opening out of thin air.
 
JOhnH said:
My point wasn't that I'm having a problem finding good vets. We are looking for a very special person, and we will find them. My point was that too many people only look for advertised positions whether they fit their qualifications or not. Most good jobs are unadvertised. But most people only respond to advertisements and then wonder why they get overlooked.

My point was that responding to an advertisement, and then waiting for a call is a waste of time. When you respond to an advertisement, you are going to be competing with thousands of others for the same position. Instead use some initiative and look for a place you want to work, and then sell yourself to them.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. I had to hire two pilots last January. I never put out a help wanted sign. Instead I called two pilots that I thought might be interested in the job, and by the end of the day I had hired two pilots. I think it is called networking.

I knew these guys and I know their work history. I know what they want and I was able to give it to them. In return I expect years of service from them.

On the other hand I get about 10-15 unsolicited resumes a month. Most are from people hoping that I have a position open. Some are from people that are wanting a SIC program.

I reply to all resumes:

Thank you for your interest in (My company). Unfortunately we do not have any open positions at this time.

Please check our requirements before submitting another resume:

2500 hours
2000 hours PIC
500 hours multi
part 135 IFR minimums

Also note that our current pilots far exceed these times. Unfortunately we do not have a SIC program and we are not able to hire pilots with less then the required hours.

Best of luck in your aviation career.

(signed)
My name here
President of Aviation Services
My company name here

When I was a young pilot I sent out several resumes and I received some very nice rejection letters. It made me feel good to know that someone actually looked at my resume and took time to dictate a letter telling me no.

I still have those letters.
 
Zeldman said:
I agree with you. I had to hire two pilots last January. I never put out a help wanted sign. Instead I called two pilots that I thought might be interested in the job, and by the end of the day I had hired two pilots. I think it is called networking.

I knew these guys and I know their work history. I know what they want and I was able to give it to them. In return I expect years of service from them.

On the other hand I get about 10-15 unsolicited resumes a month. Most are from people hoping that I have a position open. Some are from people that are wanting a SIC program.

I reply to all resumes:

Thank you for your interest in (My company). Unfortunately we do not have any open positions at this time.

Please check our requirements before submitting another resume:

2500 hours
2000 hours PIC
500 hours multi
part 135 IFR minimums

Also note that our current pilots far exceed these times. Unfortunately we do not have a SIC program and we are not able to hire pilots with less then the required hours.

Best of luck in your aviation career.

(signed)
My name here
President of Aviation Services
My company name here

When I was a young pilot I sent out several resumes and I received some very nice rejection letters. It made me feel good to know that someone actually looked at my resume and took time to dictate a letter telling me no.

I still have those letters.
Click to expand...

Best way to hire
 
Sometimes I ask the candidate some questions (or to tell me about themselves) via email so I can asses their writing/email skills.

Some people interview very well, but can't do written communication effectively.
 
Henning said:
Well, I gave you the copy and paste you asked for...
Click to expand...
I had already written several clones of that writeup you suggested. It was exactly what I wanted to say. But while it was fun to write, I just couldn't send it. The Veterinary community isn't small, but something like that would get around and I would have a lot fewer responses in the future, which would be ok if it were only the crackpots that were scared off.
 
JOhnH said:
I had already written several clones of that writeup you suggested. It was exactly what I wanted to say. But while it was fun to write, I just couldn't send it. The Veterinary community isn't small, but something like that would get around and I would have a lot fewer responses in the future, which would be ok if it were only the crackpots that were scared off.
Click to expand...

I don't see how that letter properly applied could have a negative effect. It's honest, it's not snide or cruel, and it's helpful. :dunno: If I was a qualified candidate, and some bozo showed me that response to them, You would move up my list, because you already showed you didn't take the opportunity to be an ******* when you could easily have.
 
I have stopped advertising opn positions. Just dread the process. Everyone I have hired cold-called me or was referred by existing staff.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Also the people contacting me are 90% of the time, recruiters not businesses.
Click to expand...

Recruiters seem to have a cognitive defect, they are apparently not capable of reading the words 'no recruiters, no agencies' in a ad.

And no, I wont pay $48, 000 for a hiring referral, even if you have the perfect candidate.
 
weilke said:
I have stopped advertising opn positions. Just dread the process. Everyone I have hired cold-called me or was referred by existing staff.
Click to expand...

Really? I tried cold calling for a month or so and stopped because most that I talked to seemed annoyed that I called. I stopped because I thought that it was poor practice and form to bother people. Although the applications I've been making for the last while haven't ended up netting me a job so who knows.

I thought it was something wrong with my résumé or something. That or just qualifying for the job doesn't mean much with people having 3-5x my experience.

I did post the resume I linked earlier on some hiring/job sites but only calls from recruiters so far. :dunno:
 
JOhnH said:
I hate having to advertise for an open position...Wow. The crazy, unqualified responses I get. I shouldn't be surprised because this always happens.
Click to expand...

Are you asking for qualifications which aren't strictly necessary to do the job?

I see many openings posted with qualifications which just seem intended to limit the size of the pile in the inbox, especially when the first screening is done by an HR department. A local university was hiring a janitor and wanted both janitorial experience and a bachelor's degree. This pretty much guarantees lots of applications from experienced janitors without the degree.

I haven't seen this mentioned, but many help-wanted postings never go up until the company already has identified a hire. The postings are just checking a box for EOE compliance in industries which are under close scrutiny for being below quota on women and minorities. An employment counselor told me up to 90% of posted jobs have already been filled, or are just used as a way to identify candidates for future openings.

Job-seekers apply to openings posted online because it's easy, you can do it from your computer at home, and it feels like you're doing something. But the same time invested in the networking side would be much more efficient. The HR department is where resumes go to die.
 
Last edited:
PW_Plack said:
Are you asking for qualifications which aren't strictly necessary to do the job?
Click to expand...
Not at all. I have a cat-only veterinary hospital. Most veterinarians prefer working on dogs. A few prefer cats.

So my requirements are
DVM or equivalent degree (a legal requirement)
A demonstrated preference for cats (eg: membership in AAFP, previous cat only experience, Feline specific continuing education etc).

I don't think that is unrealistic at all. But I still get resume's addressed to "to whom it may concern" and 25 years equine experience.

But again, the issue isn't my difficulty in finding employees. I am pointing out why so many job applicants are having so much trouble finding work. Many of them aren't putting in the effort or research to identify jobs or employers that are a good match. And they aren't being careful to prepare a high quality cover or resume. Many excellent candidates are probably rejected because of typos, misspellings, bad grammar and being overly verbose, or too cryptic.
 
overdrive148 said:
Really? I tried cold calling for a month or so and stopped because most that I talked to seemed annoyed that I called. I stopped because I thought that it was poor practice and form to bother people. Although the applications I've been making for the last while haven't ended up netting me a job so who knows.

I thought it was something wrong with my résumé or something. That or just qualifying for the job doesn't mean much with people having 3-5x my experience.

I did post the resume I linked earlier on some hiring/job sites but only calls from recruiters so far. :dunno:
Click to expand...

Tried visiting in person dressed professionally?
 
overdrive148 said:
Really? I tried cold calling for a month or so and stopped because most that I talked to seemed annoyed that I called. I stopped because I thought that it was poor practice and form to bother people. Although the applications I've been making for the last while haven't ended up netting me a job so who knows.

I thought it was something wrong with my résumé or something. That or just qualifying for the job doesn't mean much with people having 3-5x my experience.

I did post the resume I linked earlier on some hiring/job sites but only calls from recruiters so far. :dunno:
Click to expand...
During the depths of the recession, I did get a lot of cold calls. And it was annoying, but the reason it was annoying was that even though there were many qualified people, I just couldn't justify hiring them. And I felt bad for them. I was having a very difficult time just keeping my current employees busy and paid. If someone had cold-called me a month ago, I would probably have hired them because business has been picking up. But when I had someone leave, it became more urgent to find someone quickly. So I was forced to advertise.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top