I've come to a fork in the road (sort of) Commercial or not?

jsstevens

jsstevens

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jsstevens
Having just finished my long awaited instrument rating, I am planning to join a local flight club that has both a C-182 and a Piper Seminole (along with an assortment of 172's and Archers). My mid-range goals are to get the high performance endorsement while getting checked out in the 182 and get a multi rating in the Seminole.

However, something @denverpilot posted a couple of years ago (IIRC) about getting the commercial cert and then everything else you add on simply has to be done to commercial standards to have commercial versions of all your certificates has, shall we say, clouded my path.

I have no plans to become a working pilot-not even CFI at this point, though I suppose that could change. Also, the AME I went to for my last 3 3rd class medicals made disparaging remarks about my eyesight during one of my exams (looking into the machine and lining up images on one side and the other) and then said "Are you getting a second class?" I said no and he said "Good. You'd be in trouble on that one." or words to that effect. SO I'm not even sure I could get the 2nd class to exercise the privileges of a commercial even if I got one.

So, what is the collective wisdom here on POA? Commercial next, or go forward with the multi and never look back?

John
 
Sounds like the Medical might be the determining factor. That being said, I'm pretty sure you can get the Multi with already having the Commercial and have it done to Private standards. There will be a limitation saying so on your Certificate. I think, maybe, probably etc. Stand by for the FAR 61 boogie.
 
luvflyin said:
Sounds like the Medical might be the determining factor. That being said, I'm pretty sure you can get the Multi with already having the Commercial and have it done to Private standards. There will be a limitation saying so on your Certificate. I think, maybe, probably etc. Stand by for the FAR 61 boogie.
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I know you can do that, I'm leaning the other way just for the push to higher standards of flying. This is more the question of is it worth it (in a more rigorous standards way) to do commercial first? Not to fly professionally.
 
Commercial Pilot can be obtained with 3rd Class or Basic Med. You just won’t be able to exercise the privileges.

But could the vision item be fixed with corrective lenses?

Even if you don’t pursue the certificate, I think it’s a good idea to go with a CFI and gain some proficiency at the maneuvers you would be tested on. In many ways, they help to expand your skills envelope and make you a more confident pilot.

Especially if you have a slightly evil CFI who declares that a 22G38 day with a near maximum cross wind is a very good day to practice precision power off 180 landings. It actually was fun to drift a C172 like the Fast and Furious movie cars and still put the wheels in the 1000ft markers.
 
I'd do the Commercial next. I tend to think the "higher standards" thing is a little overblown, but I don't think there's any downside to having more education, even if not used.
 
jsstevens said:
I know you can do that, I'm leaning the other way just for the push to higher standards of flying. This is more the question of is it worth it (in a more rigorous standards way) to do commercial first? Not to fly professionally.
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Well, ya could get a CFI, have him push you to Commercial standards so you gain the knowledge and proficiency. No law say's ya gotta do checkride and get the Cert. If you have no intention of flying professionally, only reason I can think of is more Wallet Candy. Like when ya get on an airliner and tell the Stew if the Captain needs any help I'll be back here, Commercial may carry more weight. Or it could get you l**d
 
Vision issue is binocular vision. I wear corrective lenses (and have since I was about 3). While both of my eyes work, I have a dominant eye with greater acuity (right eye in my case) and do not "fuze" the images for 3d vision. Obviously I've learned to compensate over the years. Also, I haven't taken the eyesight requirements to my eye doctor to see what we can do. As I said, I really don't have any plans to exercise the commercial privileges.
 
luvflyin said:
Well, ya could get a CFI, have him push you to Commercial standards so you gain the knowledge and proficiency. No law say's ya gotta do checkride and get the Cert. If you have no intention of flying professionally, only reason I can think of is more Wallet Candy. Like when ya get on an airliner and tell the Stew if the Captain needs any help I'll be back here, Commercial may carry more weight. Or it could get you l**d
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OK, I was purposely avoiding the "Commercial Pilots get all the [fill in gender choice here]" trope. We know it's true but still...
 
if you are 100% sure you will never use your commercial cert, don't do it, it's a complete waste of time (that's not entirely true). however, if you just like handing CFI's money and feel like getting some additional training on some maneuvers that you will never do again in your entire flying 'career', then go for it. it's mostly a complete waste, other than chicks dig commercial pilots, and also you can get the non-commercial PPL's like @RyanB to buy your beers at meetups (pretty sure that's in the FARs). you'd be better off getting a friend who's commercial to go up with you and walk you thru the maneuvers so 1) you don't have to pay anyone and 2) you can be like "why the f would I pay someone to teach me that?" I mean if u like the challenge of new maneuvers, go for it. I think there's a far better chance of me reading a @denverpilot post in it's entirety before I'd ever have to do a chandelle.

ok, now for all the "but it'll make u a better pilot" replies. yeah, maybe a tiny bit.

also, I did commercial just for the hell of it, so I'm not sure I'd listen to anything I listed above, other than it's all true.
 
Many forget you can train to commercial standards and fly to them, without holding the certificate.

Handing the CFI money wasn’t probably wasted. If you had no business purpose for the certificate, handing the DPE money may have been.

Flip side of that one is, it used to be cheap enough to pay the DPE that it didn’t matter much once you paid the CFI. Nowadays with advanced certificate pricing of checkrides and the hassle of scheduling them in many metros... well...

It’s your call. You can also pay the CFI to focus on stuff you’re more likely to run into or need in your aircraft and flying style than say, chandelles and lazy eights. Those still make you a better aviator but there’s usually better stuff to work on, especially for aircraft owners who have specific avionics, etc.
 
I got the commercial....it's fun. But, for me, that's about it. I don't intend to make any money flying. It's a quick one and will only take a few hours to learn the maneuvers.

I also did the ground instructor's test....and passed. I don't intend on doing anything with that either... it's worthless.

It's more of a right of passage for some of us.....
 
I think I understand your scenario right -- PPL + IFR and adding Multi soon? You're adding a multi rating anyway. Doing it to commercial standards is the same airwork as doing it to private standards, the oral exam is just a bit different, and most of the oral exam will be multi-engine aerodynamics, same as at the private level.

I'd do multi commercial initial for my MEL; (and I did) I'd leave the single engine at private level for now. (I added on in the same weekend as the CMEL) If you choose later to pursue CFI you can do the SEL add-on ride at your leisure.

$0.02
 
If you aren't planning to exercise the privileges I wouldn't waste the money. Go get the training if you want, but a commercial cert doesn't provide any insurance discounts, or any real benefit except for the training. And you don't need to waste money on the written or check ride. Go get the comm training, and then down the road if you decide, you've already done what you need to do, can do the 3 hours within 2 months, take the written and call it good. Save the few hundred for avgas or rentals.
 
jordane93 said:
Just like others have said, fine tuning your flying skills and added education.
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What he said. You will be a safer pilot at the end. As a bonus, the maneuvers are great fun.
 
Go for the Commercial -> Lower insurance premiums
 
Did bupkus for any of my premiums. I don't even think it made me a better pilot. It was purely a hoop to dive through for the FAA as a prerequisite for other ratings.

Still OP suggests a nonzero chance of going CFI in the future. That'd be enough reason for me to "putt it in one" vs a second checkride for MEI later.
 
If you’re not planning on using the commercial, but still want to get some good VFR training, I’d suggest an aerobatic or upset recovery course.
 
guzziguy said:
My insurance guy quoted me a 15% reduction for IR and THEN another 15% reduction for comm
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Sometimes it helps and sometimes it doesn't. Neither the instrument rating or commercial certificate did anything to help on my insurance premiums. It was already bottomed out anyway.
 
If you don’t plan on ever using a commercial rating, it’s not really worth much. Yeah you learn some new maneuvers and practice to stricter tolerances on maneuvers you already know. Some of the knowledge portion is irrelevant if you aren’t going a commercial route.

you can get a with a CFI and practice the new maneuvers.
 
It's valuable to achieve new levels of ability. The achievement of a higher level of pilot certificate is possibly the best way to demonstrate that ability. Why shouldn't you... ?
 
jsstevens said:
I have no plans to become a working pilot-not even CFI at this point, though I suppose that could change. Also, the AME I went to for my last 3 3rd class medicals made disparaging remarks about my eyesight during one of my exams (looking into the machine and lining up images on one side and the other) and then said "Are you getting a second class?" I said no and he said "Good. You'd be in trouble on that one." or words to that effect. SO I'm not even sure I could get the 2nd class to exercise the privileges of a commercial even if I got one.
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IIRC the only difference between 2nd and 3rd is the "phoria" test, which is as you describe. But, you do NOT need a 2nd class to get your commercial - You only need it to exercise the privileges of the cert. Thank AOPA for that one, they convinced the FAA that even those that couldn't medically qualify to actually use it would still benefit from the additional training.

And, frankly, the Commercial ASEL is the most fun rating I've done. Lazy 8s and Chandelles are a bigger challenge than anything you do on the Private but I really enjoyed them.

FWIW, I got the commercial "just in case" there was some cool opportunity that fell into my lap. I had no intentions of ever using it... But maybe a month after I got it, a friend of a friend needed an airplane ferried from Wisconsin to Maine, so I did that. A couple of years later, I was at an airport where a Hawker captain needed an FO for his next leg - You can bet I made the schedule adjustment to do that. And fast forward another decade, and the friend of a friend thing worked once again to drop the perfect job into my lap, so now I'm combining what I was doing before (data analytics) with other tech skills for an aviation company, and flying their airplanes a couple days a week too, and absolutely loving it. So, never say never.

jsstevens said:
I know you can do that, I'm leaning the other way just for the push to higher standards of flying. This is more the question of is it worth it (in a more rigorous standards way) to do commercial first? Not to fly professionally.
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I would - I did my commercial ASEL about a month before I did my multi so that I could get the commercial multi as well. I plan to take any future rides at the Commercial level at least - Even stuff like gliders. Mainly to hold myself to a higher standard, but who knows what opportunities may show up when you least expect it. And I wouldn't be surprised if you can find a way to get that second class medical if and when you need it.
 
I’m waiting for Kent’s “there I was when” story about someone needing a commercial glider pilot. LOL
 
flyingcheesehead said:
FWIW, I got the commercial "just in case" there was some cool opportunity that fell into my lap. I had no intentions of ever using it... But maybe a month after I got it, a friend of a friend needed an airplane ferried from Wisconsin to Maine, so I did that. A couple of years later, I was at an airport where a Hawker captain needed an FO for his next leg - You can bet I made the schedule adjustment to do that. And fast forward another decade, and the friend of a friend thing worked once again to drop the perfect job into my lap, so now I'm combining what I was doing before (data analytics) with other tech skills for an aviation company, and flying their airplanes a couple days a week too, and absolutely loving it. So, never say never.
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THIS.

Really appreciating this comment as I'm in pretty much the same boat, funnily enough in Maine as well. In the midst of commercial training now(ASEL), and gonna hit CMEL soon after I finish CFI(per my school's degree program). Though I already have a well-established career going for me, I've kinda gone as far as I wanna go in my field, and looking forward to seeing what yet-hidden doors will open for me once I have the ticket to fly for pay. Planning on starting off part-time at a local scenic flight/part 91 operation, and branching out from there. No concrete path in mind, just want to see where that mile of runway takes me day to day, without the stress of a hard career reset or tunnel-visioned fast track to ATP.

My philosophy is to do my best, making decisions to keep the horizons broad, so that sometimes I get to shake life up and see what falls in my lap. It's worked well thus far. Good luck OP.
 
An additional factor to consider, where are you as far as hours and flights in your logbook? Sit down with FAR 61.129 Aeronautical Experience (for Commercial), and maybe your CFI, to figure just how many hours of instruction, additional solo flights, etc., you'd need to meet the requirements. Those totals, and expense, may or may not influence your decision. Aside from that, I'd say, what the heck, go for it, the "extra" might only be a knowledge test and the checkride.
 
Jim Carpenter said:
An additional factor to consider, where are you as far as hours and flights in your logbook? Sit down with FAR 61.129 Aeronautical Experience (for Commercial), and maybe your CFI, to figure just how many hours of instruction, additional solo flights, etc., you'd need to meet the requirements. Those totals, and expense, may or may not influence your decision. Aside from that, I'd say, what the heck, go for it, the "extra" might only be a knowledge test and the checkride.
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I actually meet all the experience requirements except the 100nm night cross country and the 250nm straight line distance one.

320 total hours, 12+ in TAA aircraft, 70+ Instrument, 255 PIC, 79 x-country, all of my time in powered airplanes. I'd need to pass the written, do the night and long cross countries, get trained in the maneuvers and take the ride.

How big a deal is the written?
 
The Commercial multi and Private multi checkrides are virtually identical. Very little difference, not enough to be concerned about.

However, the experience requirements to take your initial Commercial in a twin turn many people away. Many of the XC requirements have to be met in a multi.
For an add-on to an existing rating (Private or Commercial), there are no experience requirements, just train to competence.

So, as a Private Pilot, you can add on a Multi rating in maybe 10 hours (depending on you). No time requirement.
In order to get your initial Commercial in a multi will take about 25 hours minimum to meet the experience requirements (assuming you have no previous multi time).

If you get your initial Commercial in a single, then your multi is just an add-on, so just train to proficiency.
 
jsstevens said:
How big a deal is the written?
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Easier than instrument, harder the private. Any test prep software and reasonable commitment to studying makes passing with a high score a non-issue.
 
While I understand that there is an added cost with an additional check ride, over the long term that added cost should come back as reduced insurance costs if you ever own your own plane.

Having said that, something my grandfather used to say comes to mind when I thing about getting my commercial (which I plan on doing before I get my multi, in spite of having no solid plans to fly for a living):

"You will never regret having marketable skills, even while you are not using them."
 
denverpilot said:
I’m waiting for Kent’s “there I was when” story about someone needing a commercial glider pilot. LOL
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You'll have to ask @vontresc about that one. He's been giving rides as a commercial glider pilot.

I, personally, do not have any glider privileges... Yet. I'm hoping to maybe start flying gliders with my son in about a decade when he's old enough to solo them. :)
 
Cervieres said:
Easier than instrument, harder the private. Any test prep software and reasonable commitment to studying makes passing with a high score a non-issue.
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I wouldn’t even say it’s harder.

The Commercial just builds on things you should already be at least casually aware of, stuff like “hey there’s different rules for doing this professionally” and memorizing critical ones. The instrument is introducing completely new concepts.

Commercial is essentially “a highly detailed private written with more rules”. Anybody with reasonable study habits should be able to deal with it, as you said.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
You'll have to ask @vontresc about that one. He's been giving rides as a commercial glider pilot.

I, personally, do not have any glider privileges... Yet. I'm hoping to maybe start flying gliders with my son in about a decade when he's old enough to solo them. :)
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I was joking that with nearly zero chance you’d be on anyone’s insurance as well as the nature of glider rides being a well scheduled thing, there is like zero chance you’d ever have that “quick, we need a commercial glider rated pilot right now!” scenario ...

... but if anybody could find a way to stumble into the one time in history it ever occurs, you’ll be there.

Hahaha.

That’s what I was hinting at...
 
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