It was windy I couldn't go flying!

[Bob Bement]

I get a kick out of some pilots that say they can't go flying because of the wind. It might be 10- 15 knots.
This is how I look at wind, cross wind and turbulence in general. Orville and
Wilbur were two of the Wright off springs. They built a little flying machine and took it down to the beach in North Carolina, to see if they could fly. Now ( don't tell the FAA) but neither one of them had a pilot's license, and their flying machine ( they were both optimists and named this machine the Wright Flyer) was made with a lot of parts that weren't PMA parts. They were bicycle builders. And I don't think they had an approved FAA medical exam. They picked Dec. 17th 1903, to give this flying machine a test. Some say the winds were blowing 21 knots and some say 27 knots. They were able to move their 60 foot (steel track) runway so it was lined up with the wind.But still they had only a 12 horse power engine that they made with Charley Taylors help. The moral of this story is this: If you have a production, or a proven homebuilt aircraft, and you have a license to fly in your pocket and can't do some wind, then maybe, just maybe you shouldn't.

Bob

 

[AuntPeggy]

I take issue with this. When the wind is 27G50 and you have a pilots ticket in your pocket, maybe you should just sit and watch the lens-shaped clouds drift off the nearby peaks. When your production aircraft is jumping and straining against the chains that hold it down against winds barely 10 kts below stall speed, maybe you should kick back and take a walking tour of the local sights.

 

[SCCutler]

Thank you Bob, I enjoyed that.

I like the wind, but my wife most definitely does not.

 

[AirVenture]

There's a lot to be said here about having personal minimums, or in this case maximums. I'd certainly applaud those that have them, just so long as it doesn't limit them to the point where they are not flying in perfectly flyable conditions.

 

[Bob Bement]

Peggy that is Fine. I had an old friend that said " That is why we have Chocolate, strawberry, and Vanilla." This is just my opinion and I respect yours. If you look to the right at the end of this landing of mine you will see the wind sock standing out pretty good.

Bob

 

[KennyFlys]

I have no problem taking students up in steady winds 20+ with gusts to 30. It's a skill rarely addressed and often not at all. Obviously, I'm not going to intentionally fly if gusts were reaching well over thirty. But, if we pretend they never exist and suddenly find ourselves needing to land in an area where we have no choice, what would you do? Remain aloft until they go away? What if you have limited runway options?

I also address tail wind landings as well as tail winds with a cross wind component. Ya gotta know how to deal with them just in case.

 

[Bob Noel]

well, I suppose there is a difference between "can't" and "would rather not".
There are conditions I can handle, but I would rather not. I fly for the pure
joy of flying - why would I fly in conditions I don't enjoy?

 

[KennyFlys]

well, I suppose there is a difference between "can't" and "would rather not".
There are conditions I can handle, but I would rather not. I fly for the pure
joy of flying - why would I fly in conditions I don't enjoy?

It's not a matter of choosing to fly in conditions you don't enjoy. It is a matter of being prepared for those times when you encounter conditions worse than expected. That's precisely what I do with my students.

Now, for those who plan to use a plane in their personal business and need to put down in such conditions more frequently? All the more important they prepare and are trained for such events.

 

[Bob Bement]

As ken mentioned sometimes you need to be ready for a change in the weather. I returned from taking a friend out to his ranch, the wind was very mild when I left. When I returned the wind was blowing hard. We are 75 miles from Boise and they reported the wind to be out of the north at 58 miles an hour. I was lucky that it was blowing right down the runway ( 18-36) I was going to land on. You have to be ready unless you just go up to fly around the pattern.

 

[Geico266]

Some of the most fun I'd have flying ultralights is going up on a windy day and seeing if I could get the plane to go backwards. I've done it several times and its a hoot.

If you don't learn to fly in windy conditions you won't fly too often in NE.

 

[rottydaddy]

First of all, 10-15 knots, even at a right angle, is not a big deal for most airplanes... especially if it's steady. So I agree with Bob.

"A man has to know his limitations..." wise words. So I also agree with Peggy (a woman who knows her limitations).

Deciding "not today", for any reason that speaks strongly to you, even if it's just a "funny feeling", is never really a bad idea.

But to really understand your limitations, and be competent during those times you are near your limits, you have to push yourself a little sometimes, IMHO.

It's all fine and good to say "I will never take off in this airplane when the wind is at such-and-such speed and angle"... that will keep you safe, for sure... until that day you are drinking from your reserve because you couldn't land at the home 'drome, or the first alternate, because of the wind, which wasn't quite as forecast.... and you have to land at yet another place where the wind is unfavorable, or perhaps one of the other places.

Had you "practiced" dealing with gusty winds or strong crosswinds, you might have made it home on the first couple of approaches, but now you're in a bind. It may turn out OK for you, or not... but either way, you will learn from it. But it's better to learn this stuff by choice, not necessity, IMHO.

Personally, I was lucky that I got some pretty good xwind and gusty wind experience while training; I learned that when you're getting batted around it is no time to have your nose in the POH looking for crosswind limitations, while trying to figure out the component on the E6B. It's time to fly the airplane, as always, and don't go flying without options that make you comfortable, even if the wind as you depart makes you a little nervous, or the destination forecast is not comforting.

Later I learned even more on my own, but my personal rule of thumb is, whenever I'm debating whether or not to launch into or land in such winds, I'll first see how others make out. That pilot doing circuits in a Champ on a gusty day when you are nervous about taking the Cherokee up may know more than you, but he or she did not learn this stuff sitting on the ground reading a book.... sooner or later, we must learn. Hard way or easy way is up to you.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Training flights and just for fun flights are one thing. A holiday flight is different for quite a few reasons. "Gotta get there-itis" must be guarded against. Would much rather spoil the holiday by getting there too late than spoil it with my funeral. Then, there is the financial consideration: We don't want to buy 5 hours of fuel for a distance we normally cover in an hour. If we take off into safe conditions and they turn for the worse, then our training should get us out OK. If we take off into poor conditions and conditions turn worse, that is just foolish.

Call us a wuss if you must. I call it wise. Call it lack of training, but I call it good training and good risk analysis to wait for winds to drop below 50 kt.

 

[EdFred]

How did we go from 10-15 cross winds to flying in tropical storm strength winds? I dont think Bob was suggesting waiting until the isobars look like a thick black line on an analysis chart to go flying.

 

[Richard]

I take issue with this. When the wind is 27G50 and you have a pilots ticket in your pocket, maybe you should just sit and watch the lens-shaped clouds drift off the nearby peaks. When your production aircraft is jumping and straining against the chains that hold it down against winds barely 10 kts below stall speed, maybe you should kick back and take a walking tour of the local sights.

But don't sit smug in your decision and think that others are downright foolish and dangerous for their forays during such weather. IOW, don't label me for doing what you dare not.

 

[Bob Bement]

But don't sit smug in your decision and think that others are downright foolish and dangerous for their forays during such weather. IOW, don't label me for doing what you dare not.

I didn't mean to start a debate. I think that all of you have good points of view. I wasn't talking about flying in 30-50 m/h winds. I think that each person has their own limits and what feels good to them. As some one mentioned there is a difference in could and would. I have taken off in good conditions and three or four times have landed in terrible conditions, as far as wind is concerned. Once I took off from Fort Collins, CO. in good conditions and landed in Saratoga, WY. in 44 kt. winds. If I was just going out to the airport to take a short ride I wouldn't fly in those kinds of winds.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I've done 20G28, 21G30, 25G31, etc.

I've diverted only once when I was trying to beat a T-storm home, and it won. "Skylane 71G, winds at Madison now 19 gusting 47, say intentions." Parked over at Watertown for an hour or so, then made it back in.

My line is somewhere in between - But most people think I'm crazy. I think most people could use a little work on flying in the wind. So, next time you don't feel comfortable with the winds, grab a CFI and go!

 

[AuntPeggy]

When the wind is 27G50 and you have a pilots ticket in your pocket, maybe you should just sit and watch the lens-shaped clouds drift off the nearby peaks.

This is what I landed in yesterday after spending 3 hrs with a 40 kt head wind.

If you decide to fly a C-172 or even taxi it with the wind, I do believe you are being foolhardy.

This discussion makes me think that personal minimums need to take combinations into consideration.

 

[KennyFlys]

This is what I landed in yesterday after spending 3 hrs with a 40 kt head wind.

If you decide to fly a C-172 or even taxi it with the wind, I do believe you are being foolhardy.

This discussion makes me think that personal minimums need to take combinations into consideration.

I think Ed hit on the key issue here. I don't teach these so someone can go jump into a plane when it's double the demonstrated XW. I teach them for that time when someone is in the air when such conditions come about.

If someone hasn't had a flight where things changed much faster than expected, they should just be patient. With enough flying, it will happen.

 

[Bob Bement]

I think that different pilots also have different comfort levels. I posted a picture one time that my brother took, as we were leaving TTD Troutdale, OR. for S49 Vale, OR. One pilot commented " That would scare the crap out of me" and another commented that " that's not scud running that is good VFR". So again different strokes for different folks.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

This discussion makes me think that personal minimums need to take combinations into consideration.

Most certainly! That's why I don't have set hard-and-fast numbers for personal minimums. I look at the situation, and if I don't like it, I don't go. 20G30 on a beautiful sunny day? Sure! 20G30 after 500nm of solid IMC, moderate turbulence, and an approach to 200 feet? Meh, probably not.

 

[rottydaddy]

I've done 20G28, 21G30, 25G31, etc.

I've diverted only once when I was trying to beat a T-storm home, and it won. "Skylane 71G, winds at Madison now 19 gusting 47, say intentions." Parked over at Watertown for an hour or so, then made it back in.

Wuss!!

I think most people could use a little work on flying in the wind. So, next time you don't feel comfortable with the winds, grab a CFI and go!

That's another really good point- if you'd like to stretch the personal envelope, go up with someone you know can handle it, and let them help you if necessary.

 

[tonycondon]

That's another really good point- if you'd like to stretch the personal envelope, go up with someone you know can handle it, and let them help you if necessary.

and keep in mind that having a CFI cert does not immediatly give someone this qualification.

 

[AWACSEng]

and keep in mind that having a CFI cert does not immediatly give someone this qualification.

Especially if the school they work for grounds all aircraft if total wind exceeds 15kts.

 

[brcase]

and keep in mind that having a CFI cert does not immediatly give someone this qualification.

True, but the CFI does assume at least a minimum responibilty for the safety of the flight and at the very least should be able to tell you when to terminate the flight because the conditions are getting to dangerous.

Tony, did you see the Soaring Articles as while back, I think they were entitled something like "When Conservative isn't safe"?

For the rest you, the basic idea is simlar to what is being discussed here. If you only fly on Calm, Severe VFR days then you may only be qualified to fly on Calm, Severe VFR days and if you end up in conditions other than that you may not have the skills to deal with it. That is your conservative minimum may not keep you profecient enough to be a safe pilot. The best answer for this is maintain you personal minimums but you should find a CFI to fly with in conditions that are more than your personal minimums so that you can practice the skills to deal with them should they inadvertantly occur. This does assume that the CFI considers the conditions Safe to operate in.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[rottydaddy]

and keep in mind that having a CFI cert does not immediatly give someone this qualification.

That's why I said "someone you know can handle it", not just "a CFI"...

 

[mantakos]

They picked Dec. 17th 1903, to give this flying machine a test. Some say the winds were blowing 21 knots and some say 27 knots.

Yeah, but how far did they get on that flight?
-harry

 

[Bob Bement]

They flew for almost a minute. (on their last attempt):smile: And made it all the way to the Air and Space Museum.

 

[Terry]

Hi All:

Out here in western Kansas you have to learn how to handle wind.

My instructor asked me one time what I would do if I flew back to Hays and the wind was terrible? I said I would land the *&!#** airplane and go home.

In other words, flying somewhere else is not an option out in the wide open country. I got over my fear by going out on windy days and doing touch and go's over and over and over. Now I handle the situation and land the plane.

OTOH, gusty crosswinds can eat your lunch on take offs too. There have been several times that I have had to really use rudders to stop me from taking out a runway light.

Terry

Flying is not dangerous, crashing is.