It has happened again...

[Ted]

I whole-heartedly disagree.

Shaking babies is like pointing a loaded gun at someone you don't intend to shoot.

It is either gross ignorance or an anger management problem.

Exactly. It's like getting ****ed off at your workplace, and then going on a shooting rampage. We've all gotten ****ed off at work, but those who do so and shoot up the office get removed from society.

 

[brian]]

I really hate to hear this. My wife is very much involved in child advocacy in a number of different ways... So I hear more than I care .. And she tells me little for obvious reasons.

You know, anyone here can get involved. Lots of programs serving families and kids in many ways.

Yes, there are church related programs.
Casa
Woman's shelters (family shelters)
Baca bikers
Food pantries
Eaa young eagles would even count in my book.

And many more.

As a prosecutor, my wife uses the resources of a number of different volunteer programs. She is very good at putting the bad actors away and working with the defendants that just need help. But they need help. Little money is appropriated through taxes for these services and it isn't something the victims have the resources to pay for.

That leaves us.

 

[Henning]

I whole-heartedly disagree.

Shaking babies is like pointing a loaded gun at someone you don't intend to shoot.

It is either gross ignorance or an anger management problem.

Yet when the guy came out of the theatre and shot the guy in a similar 'anger management' moment, I didn't see everyone offer to tear him apart.

 

[Ted]

Yet when the guy came out of the theatre and shot the guy in a similar 'anger management' moment, I didn't see everyone offer to tear him apart.

Death penalty is sufficient in that scenario.

 

[Henning]

Death penalty is sufficient in that scenario.

So, should people with anger issues be preemptively eliminated before they cause damage? Should people under go an anger management class before having children? Should they take the same class to get a carry permit?

 

[kevin7500]

Exactly. It's like getting ****ed off at your workplace, and then going on a shooting rampage. We've all gotten ****ed off at work, but those who do so and shoot up the office get removed from society.

Unless your coworker is sitting on your lap crying for hours on end, only stopping to puke, these two situations are nothing close to similar.

I would bet that very few posters, if any, suggesting the death penalty have ever spent any length of time alone with an infant that cries continuously. I don't know anything to compare the level of frustration level to.

 

[Ted]

Unless your coworker is sitting on your lap crying for hours on end, only stopping to puke, these two situations are nothing close to similar.

I would bet that very few posters, if any, suggesting the death penalty have ever spent any length of time alone with an infant that cries continuously. I don't know anything to compare the level of frustration level to.

This one has. Yes, immensely frustrating, I agree. I also managed to not kill or harm any children, so I have no tolerance for those who have.

 

[airguy]

This one has. Yes, immensely frustrating, I agree. I also managed to not kill or harm any children, so I have no tolerance for those who have.

Same here.

 

[Henning]

This one has. Yes, immensely frustrating, I agree. I also managed to not kill or harm any children, so I have no tolerance for those who have.

Better to be thankful for the strength you have than damning for the strength others lack. Your thoughts are your karma, they create your future. Best bet is to have thoughts of compassion rather than condemnation.

 

[Alexb2000]

My wife's nephew has a four year old BRAT, pure and simple.

We can't go out to eat with them anymore because the last time the kid grabbed a bowl of guacamole and threw it across the restaurant hitting a table of four people. He was barely at the table long enough to do this because he was running through the restaurant screaming most of the time. I asked them why they allowed this and they said, "if we make him sit he just pees his pants repeatedly until we leave".

They are well educated progressive parents that think I am a neanderthal. They use time out, removal of toys, etc. as "discipline". They also reason with the kid A LOT. Reasoning however seems to involve a lot of bargaining, "If you sit down for the next five minutes, I will get you a large ice cream".

They also believe that a kid is born with the innate sense of what is best for them. I asked about the kids diet, gold fish, candy, soda, etc. Oh, he ate a bowl of queso, so he can have dessert now. He knows what he likes and we don't try to change it.

If I did something wrong, I was told don't do that again or else. If I did I got spanked right then and there. In the old days the super markets had benches on the ends of the aisles. My mother would drag me to the housewares, pick out a large wooden spoon, drag me to one of the benches, and spank me in front of everyone. Once she broke the spoon and had to buy it. Only took that spoon breaking incident to make me the perfect little gentleman in the store from that point on.

I also remember eating what was put on my plate without any bargaining or even being asked if that's what I wanted to eat. I ate a lot of balanced meals that way.

I never felt like I was abused or the victim of violence AND I know the other people around me appreciated not having to listen to an out of control kid.

 

[Ted]

Yep. Kids need discipline. Some need more than others. We're fortunate to have a 2 year old who (so far) is well-behaved. we can take him to restaurants, he listens, etc. We've also always expected him to behave, so he knows it.

Perfect little angel? No, he causes trouble sometimes, we all did. And he knows actions have consequences.

 

[Bill]

They also reason with the kid A LOT. Reasoning however seems to involve a lot of bargaining, "If you sit down for the next five minutes, I will get you a large ice cream".

Wow, what a little nightmare. The kid is boss and knows it, and it will be VERY painful to change at this point. Those parents are in for one feces filled ride.

In our family, my wife and I are the boss. Our daughter can be boss someday when she earns the bread and is raising her family.

 

[asechrest]

My girlfriend and I are friends with another couple. Said couple has a 5 year old son. A couple years ago, they told us that he "will only eat McDonalds" for dinner. I wasn't even sure what they meant by that. Turns out they meant that they cook a family meal but separately pick up McDonalds for him, otherwise he "won't eat".

I couldn't even really fathom that. My girlfriend is blessed with two kids that tend toward being well-behaved, and I recognize that there are children who are far more difficult to handle. But her kids wouldn't even dream of asking to have a separate meal after a dinner was cooked at home. And while we're perfectly willing to adjust meal ingredients if they are known to dislike them, generally they are expected to eat what's put on the table. And if they "won't eat"? Well, uhh, they'll get awfully hungry, and I'd bet day 2 or 3 of no dinner (or snack or dessert or anything else that would serve as an attempt to replace dinner) will change their minds.

I've also watched this couple's kid punch his parents with a closed fist. I don't know about anyone else, but if I had hit my parents back in the day, I would have pulled back a nub. I can recall my girlfriend's son hitting her exactly once, at around 1 year old as she was holding him in her arms and he was real upset. He sort of swung at her cheek. It was not a pleasant remainder of the day for him, and as far as I know that episode has never come close to repeating.

My wife's nephew has a four year old BRAT, pure and simple.

We can't go out to eat with them anymore because the last time the kid grabbed a bowl of guacamole and threw it across the restaurant hitting a table of four people. He was barely at the table long enough to do this because he was running through the restaurant screaming most of the time. I asked them why they allowed this and they said, "if we make him sit he just pees his pants repeatedly until we leave".

They are well educated progressive parents that think I am a neanderthal. They use time out, removal of toys, etc. as "discipline". They also reason with the kid A LOT. Reasoning however seems to involve a lot of bargaining, "If you sit down for the next five minutes, I will get you a large ice cream".

They also believe that a kid is born with the innate sense of what is best for them. I asked about the kids diet, gold fish, candy, soda, etc. Oh, he ate a bowl of queso, so he can have dessert now. He knows what he likes and we don't try to change it.

If I did something wrong, I was told don't do that again or else. If I did I got spanked right then and there. In the old days the super markets had benches on the ends of the aisles. My mother would drag me to the housewares, pick out a large wooden spoon, drag me to one of the benches, and spank me in front of everyone. Once she broke the spoon and had to buy it. Only took that spoon breaking incident to make me the perfect little gentleman in the store from that point on.

I also remember eating what was put on my plate without any bargaining or even being asked if that's what I wanted to eat. I ate a lot of balanced meals that way.

I never felt like I was abused or the victim of violence AND I know the other people around me appreciated not having to listen to an out of control kid.

 

[Bill]

My girlfriend and I are friends with another couple. Said couple has a 5 year old son. A couple years ago, they told us that he "will only eat McDonalds" for dinner. I wasn't even sure what they meant by that. Turns out they meant that they cook a family meal but separately pick up McDonalds for him, otherwise he "won't eat".

I couldn't even really fathom that.

Again, there can only be one boss, and it damn sure isn't going to be the kid.

 

[sferguson524]

I whole-heartedly disagree.

Shaking babies is like pointing a loaded gun at someone you don't intend to shoot.

It is either gross ignorance or an anger management problem.

I have been told by more than one person that your children will **** you off more than any other human being. I have been peed on, pooped on, puked on, kept up all night long, gone without sleep and gone to work the next day. At no point in time did i feel that shaking my son would calm him down.

 

[sferguson524]

Exactly. It's like getting ****ed off at your workplace, and then going on a shooting rampage. We've all gotten ****ed off at work, but those who do so and shoot up the office get removed from society.

Amen!

 

[sferguson524]

Same here.

Me too.. We had people over this weekend, and the baby got overwhelmed with being held by all the strangers. At no point did i get frustrated with him when it took hours to calm him down.. He's 7 weeks old, and doesn't know what's going on.. It was ON ME and my wife.. I felt horrible for my son, not frustrated.

 

[Ted]

Better to be thankful for the strength you have than damning for the strength others lack. Your thoughts are your karma, they create your future. Best bet is to have thoughts of compassion rather than condemnation.

My compassion is for the child. To err is human, but some errors indicate a person is not fit for society, and must therefore be removed from it.

 

[sferguson524]

Henning,

I assume you don't have children. I didn't get this until I had one of my own. The first time you make eye contact with your child, there's this feeling of I would die/kill for you if the need arose. It's that simple. It's very easy to project those feelings onto another child. If someone hurt my son, I don't care who it is, they are going to deal with me.

 

[Ghery]

This one has. Yes, immensely frustrating, I agree. I also managed to not kill or harm any children, so I have no tolerance for those who have.

Agree fully. Were my kids angels when they were growing up? Of course not. Did they learn to behave in a civilized manner? You bet. But we accomplished that without harming them. And, no, I have no tolerance for those who harm children.

Henning,

I assume you don't have children. I didn't get this until I had one of my own. The first time you make eye contact with your child, there's this feeling of I would die/kill for you if the need arose. It's that simple. It's very easy to project those feelings onto another child. If someone hurt my son, I don't care who it is, they are going to deal with me.

I don't think Henning has any (at least not that he's admitting to). Hence he doesn't have the direct experience to judge in this matter. I have two (grown) and I fully agree with your position. And I feel full sympathy for those who have lost children, in this or any other way.

Give yourself a few years and you'll feel the same way about your grandchildren. We do.

 

[Henning]

My compassion is for the child. To err is human, but some errors indicate a person is not fit for society, and must therefore be removed from it.

Maybe they were not fit to have a child, that does not mean they are not fit for society.

 

[sferguson524]

Maybe they were not fit to have a child, that does not mean they are not fit for society.

In my opinion, and quite honestly the opinion of others here, there's a special place in hell for child abusers. These animals are not fit for a civilized society.

 

[Henning]

Henning,

I assume you don't have children. I didn't get this until I had one of my own. The first time you make eye contact with your child, there's this feeling of I would die/kill for you if the need arose. It's that simple. It's very easy to project those feelings onto another child. If someone hurt my son, I don't care who it is, they are going to deal with me.

This is not about your son though, this is about his son. No, I have no children, intentionally because we do not have a world I would subject children to. In my opinion all of those who breed in these conditions are as guilty of child abuse as the guy who shook his baby, so you see, it's a matter of perspective. Yet my thought process isn't to punish you for your delinquency in assuring your children would have a stable future before siring them, no. My thought process goes to how I can help you assure that your children have a stable future.

 

[Ted]

Maybe they were not fit to have a child, that does not mean they are not fit for society.

He has proven inability to deal with children. Since we can't prevent this person from reproducing again, nor from interacting with other children, it amounts to the same.

 

[Henning]

He has proven inability to deal with children. Since we can't prevent this person from reproducing again, nor from interacting with other children, it amounts to the same.

The first statement is not true about no further reproduction, the second is not necessary, I doubt he wants to be in the position of taking care of anyone's crying baby. He's not Jack the Ripper, serial baby slayer.

 

[steingar]

I recall my sister dealing with this with my nephew. In the end he ate what he wanted. It just wasn't worth the fight. Humans can get nutrition from a variety of foods, so it wasn't like he was doing any permanent damage. He grew up and is still a picky eater, then again so is his uncle. But he grew up.

Life is short, one should pick one's battles wisely. The folks with the vildemench clearly surrendered, but there is certainly a middle ground.

All that said, the situation AP described is certainly a tragedy.

 

[asechrest]

I recall my sister dealing with this with my nephew. In the end he ate what he wanted. It just wasn't worth the fight. Humans can get nutrition from a variety of foods, so it wasn't like he was doing any permanent damage. He grew up and is still a picky eater, then again so is his uncle. But he grew up.

Life is short, one should pick one's battles wisely. The folks with the vildemench clearly surrendered, but there is certainly a middle ground.

All that said, the situation AP described is certainly a tragedy.

There is no battle in my experience. Eat or don't eat. Buying McDonalds every night is the lazy way out and sets a poor life example for the child. Children don't starve themselves. After a night or two of an empty stomach, they'll understand that we still need to eat and that life doesn't always cater to our every whim by making our most favorite food in the world magically appear before us every night.

 

[PPC1052]

My wife's nephew has a four year old BRAT, pure and simple.

We can't go out to eat with them anymore because the last time the kid grabbed a bowl of guacamole and threw it across the restaurant hitting a table of four people. He was barely at the table long enough to do this because he was running through the restaurant screaming most of the time. I asked them why they allowed this and they said, "if we make him sit he just pees his pants repeatedly until we leave".

They are well educated progressive parents that think I am a neanderthal. They use time out, removal of toys, etc. as "discipline". They also reason with the kid A LOT. Reasoning however seems to involve a lot of bargaining, "If you sit down for the next five minutes, I will get you a large ice cream".

They also believe that a kid is born with the innate sense of what is best for them. I asked about the kids diet, gold fish, candy, soda, etc. Oh, he ate a bowl of queso, so he can have dessert now. He knows what he likes and we don't try to change it.

If I did something wrong, I was told don't do that again or else. If I did I got spanked right then and there. In the old days the super markets had benches on the ends of the aisles. My mother would drag me to the housewares, pick out a large wooden spoon, drag me to one of the benches, and spank me in front of everyone. Once she broke the spoon and had to buy it. Only took that spoon breaking incident to make me the perfect little gentleman in the store from that point on.

I also remember eating what was put on my plate without any bargaining or even being asked if that's what I wanted to eat. I ate a lot of balanced meals that way.

I never felt like I was abused or the victim of violence AND I know the other people around me appreciated not having to listen to an out of control kid.

I am curious. Are there a lot of idle threats?

"If you throw that, you will go to time-out."
[kid throws it.]
"I said not to throw that. Next time you will go to time out."

​

I am not 100% opposed to corporal punishment. But I would really, really like to completely avoid it. I am a new parent, so I haven't been put to the test yet. But I am hopeful that by choosing the appropriate non-violent penalty, stating clearly that there will be consequences and what they are, and actually following through with them as I promised, (coupled with plenty of love and attention, but not making the kid think he's the center of the universe) that I won't have any significant discipline problems. I may be in for a rude awakening. But I hope not.

 

[jsstevens]

I am curious. Are there a lot of idle threats?

"If you throw that, you will go to time-out."
[kid throws it.]
"I said not to throw that. Next time you will go to time out."

​

I am not 100% opposed to corporal punishment. But I would really, really like to completely avoid it. I am a new parent, so I haven't been put to the test yet. But I am hopeful that by choosing the appropriate non-violent penalty, stating clearly that there will be consequences and what they are, and actually following through with them as I promised, (coupled with plenty of love and attention, but not making the kid think he's the center of the universe) that I won't have any significant discipline problems. I may be in for a rude awakening. But I hope not.

I'll just say that after having 5 and raising 4 (mostly, the youngest is 15, others are all adults) they are all different. Our oldest daughter, with the exception of going through the "I won't eat this." at ~3 has always been cooperative and self-disciplined. Our second son, whom I love dearly and respect more and more as he moves into adulthood, was _always_ dedicated to pushing the boundaries and arguing as to why there shouldn't be boundaries. It's a personality thing. We didn't cave into him and had some epic battles of will with him. Today we mostly laugh about those times and still have a good relationship with him. Our oldest son was sometimes rebellious but not as dedicated to opposition as was his brother. The youngest a daughter, is somewhere in between.

Clear and consistent rules and consequences (it doesn't matter near as much what the consequences are, but that they are consistent) are the key and if you have a child like our younger son, that takes an incredible amount of energy. Also, the same consequences for all kids is not necessarily the right answer. Our oldest son was very introverted. Grounding him in middle and high school was not any deterrent. Our younger son was and is very extroverted and grounding him was the end of the world. The rules were pretty consistent, the consequences were pretty consistently applied, but they were not the same consequences.

Am I an expert on child rearing? Heck no! I've raised to many to believe that.

John

 

[jtheune]

I am curious. Are there a lot of idle threats?

"If you throw that, you will go to time-out."
[kid throws it.]
"I said not to throw that. Next time you will go to time out."

​

I am not 100% opposed to corporal punishment. But I would really, really like to completely avoid it. I am a new parent, so I haven't been put to the test yet. But I am hopeful that by choosing the appropriate non-violent penalty, stating clearly that there will be consequences and what they are, and actually following through with them as I promised, (coupled with plenty of love and attention, but not making the kid think he's the center of the universe) that I won't have any significant discipline problems. I may be in for a rude awakening. But I hope not.

One of the things that I think is very important to this discussion has not been brought up and that is the age of the child and what the corporal punishment is. A two year old who tries to grab a pan off the stove after being told no don't do that is a candidate for a swat on the bum as the pain from the swat will reinforce the lesson and it's significantly less painful then learning by burning your hand on the pan. A 10 year old who won't pick up their room is a different matter completely. They lose the Xbox for a week as the pain from that loss will greatly reinforce the lesson better then a spanking as the pain from that goes away much sooner.

 

[JohnF]

... not making the kid think he's the center of the universe

Solution for that is a sibling.

I may be in for a rude awakening.

May? Welcome to parenthood.

But I hope not.

Hope springs eternal...

Now to answer your very fair question. All kids are different. Some will need a spoon at the end of the isle and some a stern look. But no matter what, if you lay down a law you must enforce it. Parent and tyrant are similar enough to give compassionate thought to the law you lay.

Strict is good.

 

[steingar]

There is no battle in my experience. Eat or don't eat. Buying McDonalds every night is the lazy way out and sets a poor life example for the child. Children don't starve themselves. After a night or two of an empty stomach, they'll understand that we still need to eat and that life doesn't always cater to our every whim by making our most favorite food in the world magically appear before us every night.

Like I said, pick your battles wisely.

 

[cowman]

I'm not gonna keep banging the drum anymore but I'll just leave with this. Most of the horrific acts carried out by people throughout history have been done by average people who thought what they were doing was right and just.

Always question your assumptions about right and wrong, it's the only defense against a Hitler or Stalin or some other evil charismatic leader. Their followers mostly were normal average "good" people too. Without the 20/20 view of history they probably thought all they were doing was justified and would be looked at favorable by future generations. We're all the same species... don't ever forget it because that's how these things happen.

 

[Alexb2000]

I am curious. Are there a lot of idle threats?

"If you throw that, you will go to time-out."
[kid throws it.]
"I said not to throw that. Next time you will go to time out."

​

I am not 100% opposed to corporal punishment. But I would really, really like to completely avoid it. I am a new parent, so I haven't been put to the test yet. But I am hopeful that by choosing the appropriate non-violent penalty, stating clearly that there will be consequences and what they are, and actually following through with them as I promised, (coupled with plenty of love and attention, but not making the kid think he's the center of the universe) that I won't have any significant discipline problems. I may be in for a rude awakening. But I hope not.

I would say that all kids want some hard boundaries and that when we fail to provide those they keep pushing in hopes of finding them. I would also say kids like consistency, not reactionary emotionally driven discipline. I agree that if you are firm in the battle of wills and committed to escalate whatever discipline you decide is appropriate then a good result will follow, just be prepared to adapt. Sounds like you are off on a logical and well considered path.

The only other comment I would offer is that modern parents seem to want to be friends with their kids, equals, if you will. I personally don't think that will ever work, they will have plenty of friends, they only have at most two parents and they need them desperately.

 

[AuntPeggy]

I am curious. Are there a lot of idle threats?

"If you throw that, you will go to time-out."
[kid throws it.]
"I said not to throw that. Next time you will go to time out."

​

I am not 100% opposed to corporal punishment. But I would really, really like to completely avoid it. I am a new parent, so I haven't been put to the test yet. But I am hopeful that by choosing the appropriate non-violent penalty, stating clearly that there will be consequences and what they are, and actually following through with them as I promised, (coupled with plenty of love and attention, but not making the kid think he's the center of the universe) that I won't have any significant discipline problems. I may be in for a rude awakening. But I hope not.

Here is how that goes:

"Do not throw that. That isn't to be thrown."
[kid throws it.]
[grab kid by the arm, take him over to thrown item, pick it up, take kid to a neutral corner.]
"Sit here, stay here until I tell you to get up. You don't throw this."
[time passes]
"You are here for throwing this. Tell me 'sorry' so you can get up."
[kid doesn't say 'sorry', more time passes.]
"You are here for throwing this. Tell me 'sorry' so you can get up."
[kid says 'sorry']
"You can get up now. Here, put this where it belongs."
​

 

[PaulS]

First of all Aunt Peggy, so sorry for your loss, what a horrible story.

I think many, not all, but many of these cases are a result of substance abuse, be it drugs or alcohol. We had 2 colicky kids and it was very difficult when they would cry for long periods of time..... having two parents helped, one could take a break. I think being hungover or under the influence would greatly affect one's patience and cause one to lose control easily.

As far as misbehavior in older children, I found I was constantly being tested, kids will take charge if you let them, the problem is they are kids and they don't know how to be in charge and it's hell if they think they are. There are many ways to deal with them and violence is not necessary. We used to have trouble with melt downs in restaurants in the 2 to 4 year range. You can see it coming on and sometimes you can talk them down, but generally I would tell them if they didn't calm down they would be carried out on my shoulder. Many a time I would walk out of a place with a screaming kid on my shoulder. We would spend our time in the car and generally they would calm down in a few minutes and want go back in. But once you are carried out on daddy's shoulder, you don't go back in that day. It was quite effective.

 

[Ted]

Here is how that goes:

"Do not throw that. That isn't to be thrown."
[kid throws it.]
[grab kid by the arm, take him over to thrown item, pick it up, take kid to a neutral corner.]
"Sit here, stay here until I tell you to get up. You don't throw this."
[time passes]
"You are here for throwing this. Tell me 'sorry' so you can get up."
[kid doesn't say 'sorry', more time passes.]
"You are here for throwing this. Tell me 'sorry' so you can get up."
[kid says 'sorry']
"You can get up now. Here, put this where it belongs."
​

This works pretty well with our kid. In fact, most of the time when he's in trouble, he goes right to where he's supposed to sit and sits there with his hands on his lap.

Sometimes it works less well, but usually that's because there's a hungry/tired factor in there. I get cranky when hungry, too.

 

[AuntPeggy]

First of all Aunt Peggy, so sorry for your loss, what a horrible story.

I think many, not all, but many of these cases are a result of substance abuse, be it drugs or alcohol. We had 2 colicky kids and it was very difficult when they would cry for long periods of time..... having two parents helped, one could take a break. I think being hungover or under the influence would greatly affect one's patience and cause one to lose control easily.

As far as misbehavior in older children, I found I was constantly being tested, kids will take charge if you let them, the problem is they are kids and they don't know how to be in charge and it's hell if they think they are. There are many ways to deal with them and violence is not necessary. We used to have trouble with melt downs in restaurants in the 2 to 4 year range. You can see it coming on and sometimes you can talk them down, but generally I would tell them if they didn't calm down they would be carried out on my shoulder. Many a time I would walk out of a place with a screaming kid on my shoulder. We would spend our time in the car and generally they would calm down in a few minutes and want go back in. But once you are carried out on daddy's shoulder, you don't go back in that day. It was quite effective.

Yes. Consistency and authority are important with children. The most important thing is that you are the adult. You make the decisions, not the kid. But since you are the adult, you act like one, too. Hiding a child from his parent, or having a hangover are unfair to the kid--are not acting like an adult.

 

[AuntPeggy]

This works pretty well with our kid. In fact, most of the time when he's in trouble, he goes right to where he's supposed to sit and sits there with his hands on his lap.

Sometimes it works less well, but usually that's because there's a hungry/tired factor in there. I get cranky when hungry, too.

Yes. A tired or hungry kid doesn't have much self-control.

 

[PPC1052]

Many a time I would walk out of a place with a screaming kid on my shoulder. We would spend our time in the car and generally they would calm down in a few minutes and want go back in. But once you are carried out on daddy's shoulder, you don't go back in that day. It was quite effective.

This.