Is University of Phoenix a Diploma Mill?

[SkyHog]

I'm considering jumping to University of Phoenix to finish up the rest of my degree, and since I don't know how much longer I'll be in New Mexico, it seems UoP may not be a bad choice, but I understand there is a mixed group of beliefs in their degrees.

Anyone have a degree from them, and if so, have you had any difficulty in using that degree to obtain a job? If you are an HR person, do you discount UoP anymore? I know there was a stigma in the past about online degrees, but it seems things are changing and I wanted to know what people think.

 

[flyersfan31]

(*************************)

If I saw a resume touting a degree from Uof Phoenix, I would toss it in the can. That's in my former job in corporate finance, M&A, that sort of thing.

Then again, I guess it all depends on what you want from your degree. If you want some, say, computer programming degree, or education, then it might be fine. If you want a degree in finance, or accounting, or English Lit, I'd go somewhere else.

 

[Doggtyred]

Anyone have a degree from them, and if so, have you had any difficulty in using that degree to obtain a job? If you are an HR person, do you discount UoP anymore? I know there was a stigma in the past about online degrees, but it seems things are changing and I wanted to know what people think.

My perception about that type of school is if you already HAVE a good job you want to keep, and would be reimbursed better for having a higher degree, then perhaps it would be a benefit.

If you are using it to GET a job, you aren't helping yourself as much.

Stick with programs that are accredited (as in, the hours will transfer). You can still find credible distance ed programs/online/night/alternative programs affiliated with established, accredited universities.

 

[flyersfan31]

My perception about that type of school is if you already HAVE a good job you want to keep, and would be reimbursed better for having a higher degree, then perhaps it would be a benefit.

If you are using it to GET a job, you aren't helping yourself as much.

Stick with programs that are accredited (as in, the hours will transfer). You can still find credible distance ed programs/online/night/alternative programs affiliated with established, accredited universities.

Agreed. Good way of putting it.

 

[TMetzinger]

For undergrad stuff - not so good. But I know quite a few folks who got online master's degrees in the military when University of Phoenix was the only game in town for distance learning, and they did real work, and the degrees were valued by their later employers.

 

[SCCutler]

Phoenix is not your choice if you're looking for a traditional college experience- but they are most certainly accredited.

Schools like Phoenix (and there are several significant ones) offer degree programs to non-traditional students, principally adults who are working, want to get the education and degree without the bulls**t.

The term, "diploma mill" refers to outfits that grant degrees without requiring attendance of classes taught by appropriately-qualified faculty (think, "credit for life experience" here). University of Phoenix is not such a school.

One way you might judge whether a given school is legit: do quality graduate schools recognize the degrees granted for qualification of applicants?

Well, I have a lawyer working for me who is a Phoenix graduate, and the Baylor University School of Law readily admitted her, had no problem with her Phoenix degree. She's smart, a damned good lawyer, and a no-nonsense kinda person. She was well into her thirties (maybe even forty-something, no sure) when she decided to complete her degree (her traditional college years having been spent having a bit of fun...), and Phoenix worked for her. Baylor's a very stronlg law school, and she's an exceptional lawyer.

If you're an adult student, and will not be looking for the degree to be the only thing that gets you in the door, it's worth a look.

And, by the way: if I threw resumes in the trash based upon something like this, I'd be: (1) a hypocrite; (2) a snob; and (3) missing some damned good (and particularly motivated) talent.

 

[ausrere]

It's listed as accredited by the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools (one of the six regional accrediting associations), right after the University of Arizona. The University of New Mexico and The Central New Mexico Community College are also accredited through NCAHLC.

 

[jesse]

And, by the way: if I threw resumes in the trash based upon something like this, I'd be: (1) a hypocrite; (2) a snob; and (3) missing some damned good (and particularly motivated) talent.

Anyone that would toss the resume would not be worth working for.

 

[poadeleted20]

University of Phoenix is accreditated by the North Central Association of Schools and Colleges (one of the six major regional associations) -- the same outfit which accredis my alma mater, the University of Michigan, which has a pretty good academic reputation.

 

[Kelvin]

My niece Rachel is finishing her undergraduate degree through the U of Phoenix. She is working hard to make grades. I will defer to others on the accreditation but anecdotally, I can tell you Rachel is cracking the books day and night to make the grade.

I certainly hope for her sake the degree is valued by potential employers in the future.

 

[ScottM]

Given its accreditation by the North Central Association of Schools and Colleges (one of the six major regional associations)...

Considering he is looking at U of P from a biz perspective I can understand his statement. North Central is not the gold standard of accreditation for biz graduates.

Although Phoenix is regionally accredited, it lacks approval from the most prestigious accrediting agency for business schools, the Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business.

John J. Fernandes, the association’s president, said the university had never applied. “They’re smart enough to understand their chances of approval would be low,” Mr. Fernandes said. “They have a lot of come-and-go faculty. We like institutions where the faculty is stable and can ensure that students are being educated by somebody who knows what they’re doing.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/11/education/11phoenix.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1&ref=todayspaper

I would look at some of their undergrad degrees warily. What else is written on the resume would be scrutinized a bit more to see the quals But if there were two candidates with all things equal. One from a name school and the other from U of P, I would likely give the nod to the name school grad.


Read the whole article above. The race for profits has adversely affected U of P. This is confirmed by people I know who have taught there and have since left over issues of educational quality.

 

[flyersfan31]

Given its accreditation by the North Central Association of Schools and Colleges (one of the six major regional associations)...

I wrote, IIRC. Apparently I didn't recall correctly. The rest of my post stands.

 

[steingar]

I have taught in a program not dissimilar to U of P, although the program in which I taught was associated with a "real" university (Johns Hopkins). My students got everything my students at a "real" university get from me. They had to work their buns off to get past me, and learned a lot. I have been made to understand that it was positive experience for many if not most of them.

Purchasing a university education is strangely similar to purchasing an aircraft. You spend about as much, and really want to think about your mission. Nick, what do you actually want outo f your college degree? How do you think it will assist you in obtaining your goals?

 

[flyersfan31]

Anyone that would toss the resume would not be worth working for.

You probably haven't spent a lot of time hiring for companies, as your post betrays a total ignorance of the process.

In these days of Internet job-postings, the screening process for resumes is a challenge. Post a job opening, and you can receive literally thousands of resumes in response. How does one winnow that pile down to a manageable interview list? Each resume gets about 5-10 seconds of consideration. One of the most obvious points upon which to focus is under the "Education" heading. Am I going to chuck all the resumes that say U of Phoenix, or North Carolina ABC&D, as part of the screening process? You betcha! Unless, in my 5-10 seconds per resume their job experience or something else catches my eye for further review.

It's a tough world out there.

 

[ScottM]

You probably haven't spent a lot of time hiring for companies, as your post betrays a total ignorance of the process.

In these days of Internet job-postings, the screening process for resumes is a challenge. Post a job opening, and you can receive literally thousands of resumes in response. How does one winnow that pile down to a manageable interview list? Each resume gets about 5-10 seconds of consideration. One of the most obvious points upon which to focus is under the "Education" heading. Am I going to chuck all the resumes that say U of Phoenix, or North Carolina ABC&D, as part of the screening process? You betcha! Unless, in my 5-10 seconds per resume their job experience or something else catches my eye for further review.

It's a tough world out there.

You did not even mention the big company bias. Many large companies invest in research at large universities. Because of the the Bayh-Dole act of 1980 research universities that also receive federal funding may maintain rights to their intellectual property. In many cases an exchange to rights for this IP is given to other research investors for a preference to that universities graduates. What that means is that the HR resume system is geared to make sure that people with certain university names on their resumes get forwarded ahead of or in place of none preferred colleges.

 

[poadeleted20]

Am I going to chuck all the resumes that say U of Phoenix, or North Carolina ABC&D, as part of the screening process? You betcha! Unless, in my 5-10 seconds per resume their job experience or something else catches my eye for further review.

Do you chuck every resume with a school in North Carolina, or just North Carolina A&T (an old and highly respected HBCU that's about the only school with a name close to "North Carolina ABC&D)? Or do you simply reject all resumes from state universities or schools not considered "top tier" like the Ivy League?

 

[flyersfan31]

Do you chuck every resume with a school in North Carolina, or just North Carolina A&T (an old and highly respected HBCU that's about the only school with a name close to "North Carolina ABC&D)? Or do you simply reject all resumes from state universities or schools not considered "top tier" like the Ivy League? If so, your definition of "diploma mill" seems a bit indiscriminate to me.

I just KNEW that would draw comment. I picked a state at random for argument sake. FYI, my brother in law attended NCA&T.

Nor did I link such schools to "diploma mills." Do I winnow based upon school quality? Yes. Would I choose to interview someone from Harvard over someone from U of Phoenix for a corporate finance position? With 10 seconds to review the resume? With a stack of 800 staring me in the face? You betcha!

I look at the resume. Scan the education. Scan the experience. Scan the rest. Are they Phi Bet and 4.0 at, say, NCA&T? They may warrant a second look. Is the Harvard person a Basketry major? That would go in the can. But a Harvard econ degree and an NCA&T econ degree? Tie goes to the better school. All this in 10 seconds. It's not perfect, but that's what it is.

You may be approaching this from the perspective of a college admissions officer, say for an aviation degree program?? When that is your primary role, then clearly you are going to look in depth at the totality of the package. Essays, references, the like.

Different story. I'm just telling you how it is in the corporate world of small or mid-sized companies that don't have a vast HR network to perform the screening task. It is delegated to the departments with the best knowledge of the requirements.

As I said, it's not perfect, but that's what it is. The lesson is that a good degree from a good school is a door-opener. If you go to NC ABC&D, or U of Phoenix, you'll always be like Avis -- you're going to have to try harder.

 

[Anthony]

I do a lot of hiring, some at a very high level. My HR person pre-screens the candidates based on my parameters. Where they attended college is not one of them. I review the experience and skill set first then I look at the educational background. Do I prefer some schools over others? Sure, but that doesn't stop me from hiring someone.

 

[wabower]

If you want to see a bunch of resume's in a hurry, post a pilot job on one of the web sites. I just posted a CJ1 job in Silicon Valley, got covered up with responses. As you would expect, about half of the pilots didn't read the ad properly, so many of the responses went in the can.

 

[flyersfan31]

I do a lot of hiring, some at a very high level. My HR person pre-screens the candidates based on my parameters. Where they attended college is not one of them. I review the experience and skill set first then I look at the educational background. Do I prefer some schools over others? Sure, but that doesn't stop me from hiring someone.

High level is a different story. My experience relates to newcomers -- both first job out of college, and first out of grad school. In that case, education is one of the only things you have to consider.

With higher-level hires, the experience comes to the forefront. Education is far less relevant. When we did recruiting for experience positions (which was much less common) clearly experience spoke the loudest.

However, we're talking about Nick and his future plans. He needs a "foot in the door" job. To get that kind of job you need a "foot in the door" education. U of Phoenix, IMHO, is not that kind of a degree.

Once he builds his career, it won't really matter any more. It's all about getting that first job. And yes, I know he's been working as a CSR for several years, but I'm assuming he's pursuing higher education so that he doesn't have to make it a career.

 

[gismo]

I
Nor did I link such schools to "diploma mills." Do I winnow based upon school quality? Yes. Would I choose to interview someone from Harvard over someone from U of Phoenix for a corporate finance position? With 10 seconds to review the resume? With a stack of 800 staring me in the face? You betcha!

I look at the resume. Scan the education. Scan the experience. Scan the rest. Are they Phi Bet and 4.0 at, say, NCA&T? They may warrant a second look. Is the Harvard person a Basketry major? That would go in the can. But a Harvard econ degree and an NCA&T econ degree? Tie goes to the better school. All this in 10 seconds. It's not perfect, but that's what it is.

Different story. I'm just telling you how it is in the corporate world of small or mid-sized companies that don't have a vast HR network to perform the screening task. It is delegated to the departments with the best knowledge of the requirements.

As I said, it's not perfect, but that's what it is. The lesson is that a good degree from a good school is a door-opener. If you go to NC ABC&D, or U of Phoenix, you'll always be like Avis -- you're going to have to try harder.

While I can understand the need to make quick (and at least occasionally inaccurate/unfair) choices when facing a two foot high stack of resumes, I must agree with Jesse that some of us would prefer to work somewhere that a less arbitrary selection process is used/needed. One might miss some otherwise attractive opportunities with that attitude but OTOH you probably miss a similar number of exceptional prospects as well.

 

[RotorAndWing]

And you wonder why Corporate America is in the wreck that it's in?

 

[Skip Miller]

As you would expect, about half of the pilots didn't read the ad properly, so many of the responses went in the can.

I've stopped sending job postings to business schools when looking for an entry level position. The last time I did I was deluged with resumes from an automated system they have, and the dweeb who keyed in my posting did not filter for any of the specific experience I needed.

The objective is different. The graduating student needs to get the most eyeballs possible on his resume, hoping one will stick. Since I was looking for a specific background, they just waste my time. Sorry, but I won't do that again.

Professional associations work well for me.

-Skip

 

[flyersfan31]

While I can understand the need to make quick (and at least occasionally inaccurate/unfair) choices when facing a two foot high stack of resumes, I must agree with Jesse that some of us would prefer to work somewhere that a less arbitrary selection process is used/needed. One might miss some otherwise attractive opportunities with that attitude but OTOH you probably miss a similar number of exceptional prospects as well.

Once you have experience, that's what talks on a resume.

But when you have 20 interview slots, and 800 resumes, just cutting that 800 down to 400 is a major task.

And it's not that arbitrary if you think about it. If you go to a lesser school, you're going to have to work a lot harder to get noticed. It's a simple truth. There is no space on a resume for a life story - I can certainly understand factors like finances, and socio-economic background having an impact on your choices. Such is life. In such a case, a resume is not the best way to get your foot in the door. A good candidate will find alternate approaches to being noticed.

Again, I'm talking about starting-level positions. Once you've been working, then your employment record starts doing the talking for you, and THAT becomes the arbitrary factor used to winnow down a stack of 800 resumes.

If you drop out of college, you better plan on starting your own company. Like, say, Bill Gates.

 

[jesse]

You probably haven't spent a lot of time hiring for companies, as your post betrays a total ignorance of the process.

I would have no interest in doing hiring that required me to toss resumes based on some arbitrary information. I don't generally work for major companies and who knows if I ever will. I do value education but I value ability and experience over education any day. Can you determine that from a resume? Usually not. But tossing based on U of Phoenix sure isn't going to help.

I am very unlikely to ever apply for a job that has 800 other applicants without already having my foot in the door (by way of reputation). In fact, I really wouldn't bother. I suppose you would toss my resume which has no education listed

 

[SCCutler]

... I suppose you would toss my resume which has no education listed

Yep, Jesse, you're an uneducated rube, no credentials, no skills...

...I can't even type that without feeling like an idiot.

---

FWIW, because the majority of real growth in the job market is in small and medium sized businesses, and that is likely to be the case for a good long time, I think you'll find the majority of such employers will be looking for what you have done and how well you have done it, and less for where you obtained your credentials.

YMMV.

 

[TMetzinger]

If you drop out of college, you better plan on starting your own company. Like, say, Bill Gates.

...Or join the military, or some other things that can serve as the start of a career and put some years of responsible work experience on the resume.

 

[AWACSEng]

Nope Tim, education at a big-name school is all that amtters. No "life experience" allowed. No $60k education for you? No job!!! ///sarcasm off, well kinda///

 

[jesse]

If you drop out of college, you better plan on starting your own company. Like, say, Bill Gates.

I dropped out of high-school. I'm not rich -- but I'm not doing that terrible either. Better than the average college educated person around here.

 

[wabower]

I think the point he's making is that some qualification benchmark is necessary for the initial sort in today's world of application/recruitment technology. That being the case, what should a recruiter do to narrow the field? Pick the least-educated or the lowest-ranking schools?

Your situation obviously doesn't fit the mold, which is why you will probably never interview with them, unless it's by being shilled in by somebody who knows what you can do. I'm in the same boat; my phone doesn't ring with referral business because I'm the biggest or most famous guy in the aviation consulting business, it's all word-of-mouth from people who have been happy with the work. And one more reason why I still don't have a website.

I would have no interest in doing hiring that required me to toss resumes based on some arbitrary information. I don't generally work for major companies and who knows if I ever will. I do value education but I value ability and experience over education any day. Can you determine that from a resume? Usually not. But tossing based on U of Phoenix sure isn't going to help.

I am very unlikely to ever apply for a job that has 800 other applicants without already having my foot in the door (by way of reputation). In fact, I really wouldn't bother. I suppose you would toss my resume which has no education listed

 

[Cap'n Jack]

For a first job, the school may matter- depending on the work.

If I needed a fresh-from-school particle physicist for something, those from SUNY Stony Brook, University of Chicago, Stanford, or other universities accosciated with BNL, CERN, SLAC, etc would rank higher on my initial list than someone from Univ. of Nebraska- simply because they had access to the training and experience in this field, although I may pick the UN student over the others based on other criteria (fit with others in the work group)

Other study areas- MBA, for example, the university would matter a lot less because the knowledge base is more widespread and doesn't use specialized equipment in the work.

After the person has been working, whoever granted the degree matters a lot less than the work record of the person.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

University of Phoenix is accreditated by the North Central Association of Schools and Colleges (one of the six major regional associations) -- the same outfit which accredis my alma mater, the University of Michigan, which has a pretty good academic reputation.

U of M can't be THAT good - they done let me graduate...

But, all that aside. A former CEO where I work (one of the big auto companies - you shouldn't have any trouble figuring it out) stated that we were going to hire only the "best and brightest" which translated to "went to the right school" (dunno if that is still the policy, but I do know that no one was sorry to see that particular CEO get the boot). So where you went can make a difference (I ain't saying thats good or bad - it just is). (Never mind the fact that the company was founded by a high school dropout...)

Now as far as Nick's problem goes - would it work to take classes from an on line source and then transfer the credits back to the brick and mortar place once the "who's got the $3600" thing gets sorted out?

 

[ScottM]

I would have no interest in doing hiring that required me to toss resumes based on some arbitrary information.

Here is a primer on hiring at a big firm. Once you go through all the hoops and get a headcount approved, per HR policy you must use their services and only once you cannot find who you are looking for will you be able to try an different route. So you put in your requirements to their useless automated system that will deliver 50 resumes a day. Most of which have none of the key words you inputed into the search criteria. But you give it a shot.

Even though you are falling further behind in work due to being a headcount short and have been trying to get the requisition approved for three months you devote what time you have to the process.

So you screen the resumes. Quickly hoping that one will stand out, but knowing that there will likely be none. This goes on for a week or two. You give up, use many four letter words that are usually reserved only for the IT help desk. After you have exhausted yourself and looked at a pile of resume that is a foot tall you manage to find 5 that are worth a phone call to the applicant.

Then you whittle that down to 1 or 2 for interviews. Most likely still striking out. You can then start your search based on personal recommendations from other people that you know and trust that have worked with good people who are experts in the area you are searching for and will attest to an applicant.

This is where people like you Jesse will get hired from. Don't ever expect to get a job through a cold resume submission. Your skills are the type that are valued. You will be valued by the people in your network.

I'll tell you the last time I was looking at fresh outs I had over 100 resumes for one position. Some of the criteria I used for the entry level job was that if you had a resume that was more than one page long, you were not going to be considered. I did not to see every paper boy job you had since you were 12. I wanted real work experience. Then I looked at schools. We were targeting three schools at that time so you needed to be from one of those. I then looked at your resume for a third time. This time devoting 1 to 3 minutes to read it. I even weighted things like your interests. For instance if you were a ham radio operator that showed me you had a real world knowledge and love of communications. I also looked for military experience as that showed me you had real world responsibility and leadership experience. After that I then looked for GPA but gave it little weight.

If you made my list I then called you. I had gotten 12 resumes and from the phone interview I had people I wanted to see in person. I then arranged a day of intensive interviewing with other people from my department. I wanted to see how well you fitted in with the team. If after all that you were not a complete spaz you made it to the decision round. This last time. There were only three.

When I go to hire a non-entry level, personal reference is the key. I put more weight on that than any other criteria. People I know and trust, even ones from other companies, that recommend you will make me more interested in you than anything on your resume. I have hired non-degreed engineers that way and have never been let down.

 

[poadeleted20]

In any event, to answer the original question, the University of Phoenix is not a "diploma mill." However, all else being equal, a degree from there will never match up with an Ivy League degree when you're applying for your first job out of school. OTOH, Ted Kaczynski was a Harvard grad, had a PhD from Michigan, and was an assistant professor at Berkeley, but even if your undergraduate degree is from the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople, if your track record after graduation is solid, you'll do better than the Unabomber would now. Go to the best school that will take you and you can pay for, do your best there, and you'll have the best start you can get. After that, it's what you did after school that counts most.

 

[SCCutler]

In any event, to answer the original question, the University of Phoenix is not a "diploma mill." However, all else being equal, a degree from there will never match up with an Ivy League degree when you're applying for your first job out of school. OTOH, Ted Kaczynski was a Harvard grad, had a PhD from Michigan, and was an assistant professor at Berkeley, but even if your undergraduate degree is from the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople, if your track record after graduation is solid, you'll do better than the Unabomber would now. Go to the best school that will take you and you can pay for, do your best there, and you'll have the best start you can get. After that, it's what you did after school that counts most.

Post of the day.

 

[ScottM]

In any event, to answer the original question, the University of Phoenix is not a "diploma mill." However, all else being equal, a degree from there will never match up with an Ivy League degree when you're applying for your first job out of school. OTOH, Ted Kaczynski was a Harvard grad, had a PhD from Michigan, and was an assistant professor at Berkeley, but even if your undergraduate degree is from the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople, if your track record after graduation is solid, you'll do better than the Unabomber would now. Go to the best school that will take you and you can pay for, do your best there, and you'll have the best start you can get. After that, it's what you did after school that counts most.

Doesn't that make you a classmate of Ted's?




See this is why you never hire anyone from U of Mich.

 

[wabower]

Or that grand-dad will help fund. Those Ivie's aren't for sissies.

In any event, to answer the original question, the University of Phoenix is not a "diploma mill." However, all else being equal, a degree from there will never match up with an Ivy League degree when you're applying for your first job out of school. OTOH, Ted Kaczynski was a Harvard grad, had a PhD from Michigan, and was an assistant professor at Berkeley, but even if your undergraduate degree is from the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople, if your track record after graduation is solid, you'll do better than the Unabomber would now. Go to the best school that will take you and you can pay for, do your best there, and you'll have the best start you can get. After that, it's what you did after school that counts most.

 

[Obi Heed Kenobi]

In any event, to answer the original question, the University of Phoenix is not a "diploma mill." However, all else being equal, a degree from there will never match up with an Ivy League degree when you're applying for your first job out of school. OTOH, Ted Kaczynski was a Harvard grad, had a PhD from Michigan, and was an assistant professor at Berkeley, but even if your undergraduate degree is from the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople, if your track record after graduation is solid, you'll do better than the Unabomber would now. Go to the best school that will take you and you can pay for, do your best there, and you'll have the best start you can get. After that, it's what you did after school that counts most.

Excellent advice, and I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[flyersfan31]

Once you have experience, that's what talks on a resume.................Again, I'm talking about starting-level positions. Once you've been working, then your employment record starts doing the talking for you, and THAT becomes the arbitrary factor used to winnow down a stack of 800 resumes.

Ahem.

People are so upset about me flaming Univ of Phoenix, for which I am unapologetic, and explaining the reality of initial resume screening for entry level jobs, for which I am also unapologetic, that they clearly haven't bothered to read my posts thoroughly.

I wouldn't hire someone who didn't indicate a propensity for thoroughness, either.

Jeez folks, ya gotta read if yer gonna criticize.

 

[flyersfan31]

...Or join the military, or some other things that can serve as the start of a career and put some years of responsible work experience on the resume.

Cripes - I guess I need to spoon feed. Oblique humor seems to be lost around here.

Stay with me on this.....

Bill Gates = Multigazillionaire

Bill Gates = Not A College Grad

Conclusion? Multigazillionaire can = Not A College Grad

Get it, folks??????? I agree - college education is not a requirement for success in life. It can get you where you want to go, but sometimes you can get there just fine without it.


(And yes, Tim, you are absolutely correct. Good work experience, plus more maturity. Good stuff, military service.)