Is there ANY advantage to obtaining a SPL? (Or obtaining one as a stepping stone?)

Ethan2002

Ethan2002

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Ethan
In the US, is there any advantage to obtaining a Sport Pilot Certificate (License) beyond the fact that it has fewer and lower requirements? Yes, I am aware of its limitations. Is there any advantage to obtaining a SPL as a "stepping stone" to a PPL? (A CFI told me that if a "regular" CFI gave the instruction, even in a LSA eligible aircraft, so long as the PPL requirements for distances were met 100% of the SPL would count toward a future PPL.)

If it matters, I have a few hours of dual instruction from three years ago and a few thousand hours in Part 103 ultralight flying vehicles.
 
Depends what you want to do and fly…if you want to bypass the SP restrictions ASAP, going straight to Private would probably be better. If your immediate goa is to fly some LSA that’s available, SP would probably be the way to go.

Someone else will hopefully chime in with the source, but I believe the FAA has said that instruction toward SP by an “irregular” instructor still counts towards Private Pilot requirements.
 
I can't think of any advantage in the "stepping stone" scenario, assuming further pursuit of the PPL is a given. One more knowledge test, and one more checkride just add to the overall cost and effort. I suppose, if one owned a LSA airplane like an Aeronca Champ or J3, without electrical or gyro instruments, you might get SPL, but would not be able to accomplish the night or instrument training required for the PPL without using another aircraft, but then you'd still be in for the extra tests later for PPL.
 
My personal opinion which will probably be vehemently disagreed with is:

If you know without a doubt you will qualify for a 3rd class medical, there's no reason to go from Nothing ==> Sport Pilot ==> Private Pilot
 
EdFred said:
My personal opinion which will probably be vehemently disagreed with is:

If you know without a doubt you will qualify for a 3rd class medical, there's no reason to go from Nothing ==> Sport Pilot ==> Private Pilot
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Yeah, but I can think of a reason. Ya got enough money to get through Sport but it will be quite awhile before you can through Private and you want to get the Ticket and go play until you do.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah, but I can think of a reason. Ya got enough money to get through Sport but it will be quite awhile before you can through Private and you want to get the Ticket and go play until you do.
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If you have the money to play, you have the money to finish the private. There's only 5 hours more of CFI time required for the private than sport. You can "play" while private student solo. Just need CFI to sign off if going somewhere. Had a student that wanted to go see family. So I signed him off for XC. He got to "play."
 
EdFred said:
If you have the money to play, you have the money to finish the private. There's only 5 hours more of CFI time required for the private than sport. You can "play" while private student solo. Just need CFI to sign off if going somewhere.
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Yeah, there is that. But with Sport you can play with a passenger.
 
Ethan2002 said:
If it matters, I have a few hours of dual instruction from three years ago and a few thousand hours in Part 103 ultralight flying vehicles.
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FWIW ... I mentioned to my insurance provider that I had a bunch of ultralight time (as a pilot & instructor) and it is noted on my policy. Did it help lower the rate? Can't say, but I figured it couldn't hurt and my rate seems quite good for a low time tail wheeler wanna be. :)
 
Ethan2002 said:
(A CFI told me that if a "regular" CFI gave the instruction, even in a LSA eligible aircraft, so long as the PPL requirements for distances were met 100% of the SPL would count toward a future PPL.)
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Yes. Thousands of pilots have gotten their private in a Cub... Also, if you are working with a sport pilot CFI for whatever reason, the dual (and solo) will count towards the PP if, and only if, you actually get the sport pilot ticket. You just want to do things like make your solo cross country long enough for the private, etc.

But, if the medical is not an issue, otherwise not much point in not getting the PP up front.
 
If you're faced with a long and expensive medical, you might consider doing SP first without a medical. You could then fly for a while, save up some money and get medical tests or whatever completed, and decide whether it's worth going to PP. For many people, a SP ticket will give them everything they need without the medical hassle and risk.

Also, you might consider how many people start out toward PP and never finish. The dropout rate is pretty high. Snapping a line by getting the SP ticket halfway through means that even if you don't finish the Private (cost, medical issue, family or job situation, whatever...) you'll still be a pilot and you will always be able to fly day VFR with a passenger. Even if you eventually go on to PP, getting the SP ticket let's you take a break part way through and fly for pleasure for a while. I flew as a SP for about a year and half before getting my PP certificate.

LSAs are capable aircraft and many people fly serious cross country trips with them, even to the Bahamas. You might decide that SP is all you'll ever need.
 
Might be a moot point if there is no LSA training or rental nearby.

My major cross-countries are performed on-demand, in just a few hours time, & in all weather by 737 for $400 a seat. That’s tough to beat, regardless of the platform you’re flying.

fit the training & aircraft to the actual scenario you’ll be flying. A lot of guys dragging 6-seats around by themselves, never imagining the family had other things to do than go watch him fly.
 
EdFred said:
My personal opinion which will probably be vehemently disagreed with is:

If you know without a doubt you will qualify for a 3rd class medical, there's no reason to go from Nothing ==> Sport Pilot ==> Private Pilot
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Thanks to EdFred I just checked -- apparently my 3d class medical is still valid. For some reason I (incorrectly) thought they were valid for 3 years. Nope ...
(Original post: Having passed and received 3rd class medical in the past, is another required to obtain a PPL?)
 
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Half Fast said:
....you might consider how many people start out toward PP and never finish...
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I guess I count as a "dropout" although my intent was to learn enough to not kill myself in a MiniMax.
Half Fast said:
....LSAs are capable aircraft and many people fly serious cross country trips with them, even to the Bahamas. You might decide that SP is all you'll ever need.
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Yes, if LSA included all 2 seat, fixed gear, low hp craft it would be just the "ticket"... But 150's with "proper" gear, 140s, 120s, some Aeroncas, identical Champions and Bellancas, some Taylorcraft and some Luscombes are 1325 to 1500 pounds gross.
 
Ethan2002 said:
Having passed and received a now expired 3rd class medical in the past, is another required to obtain a PPL?
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You will need either a 3rd class or Basic Med. Do you know if you're eligible for Basic Med? The only way you can solo without either one is in an LSA.
 
Ethan2002 said:
I guess I count as a "dropout" although my intent was to learn enough to not kill myself in a MiniMax.

Yes, if LSA included all 2 seat, fixed gear, low hp craft it would be just the "ticket"... But 150's with "proper" gear, 140s, 120s, some Aeroncas, identical Champions and Bellancas, some Taylorcraft and some Luscombes are 1325 to 1500 pounds gross.
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There are LSAs that have similar (or better) load capability and better performance than some of those. For example, compare a Tecnam P2008 LSA with a Cessna 150. The book value useful load for the 150 is 478lbs, and the Tecnam's is 465lbs. The max cruise for the 150 is 109 knots, while the Tecnam's is 128 knots.

What's your mission? If you want to go on $100 burger runs, do short day trips, and occasionally take a longer vacation by yourself or with one companion, a SP ticket and an LSA might be all you need. OTOH, if you want to load up a family of 6 plus your St. Bernard and fly from Florida to Alaska, a SP certificate isn't going to cut it.

Regardless, though, you asked whether there might be an advantage to getting your SP ticket first, and I gave you a few.
 
EdFred said:
When was the 3rd class valid until?
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Thanks for asking.

I thought it had expired, but it is still valid ...

And I looked up BasicMed, so I will qualify when my 3rd actually does expire.
 
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Half Fast said:
....What's your mission..?
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Right now, to travel a lot further and a little faster than I can in an ultralight. And take a passenger along, perhaps for a $120 burger. For just tooling around or doing light acrobatics it doesn't matter how fast I'm moving, but I have to choose between a machine capable of flying 150 miles at 55 mph, or a slower one stressed to 6Gs.

Half Fast said:
Regardless, though, you asked whether there might be an advantage to getting your SP ticket first, and I gave you a few.
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Yes, and as I see it the only dis-advantage is arranging and paying for a second practical down the road. (The time for the SPL practical counts as *PIC time* ... right?)

*Edited*
 
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My understanding is that if another person is in the airplane, it's not solo.
 
Palmpilot said:
My understanding is that if another person is in the airplane, it's not solo.
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Unless you're a commercial student then the CFI doesn't necessarily count as a person. :rolleyes:
 
I went sport to private, with a few years in between. One benefit is you fly a bit, and then you're back to training with a CFI again to get your private. I think that extra training/checkride after I had flown a while was good for me.
 
I did it. I had my 3rd class from the beginning. I wanted to learn first in tailwheel, partly because I didn't want to focus to much on the tech of it, and ended up getting sport before private. I almost ended up taking my private in a cub, just for the novelty of it, but I needed to do the required instrument training in another aircraft anyway, so took the more normal route of taking the private checkride in a Cherokee.

All that said, I don't know of any advantage of sport before private. Overall, it'll cost a little more, and it'll take a little longer Might be shorter time to get into the air as a pilot, but I don't think much. I suppose there is an advantage of learning to fly in two different aircraft, probably. But you don't need two certs to do that. The sanity check of having 2 different DPE's sign off that you can fly safely? I'm just not seeing any significant advantage.

Now, learning in an old aircraft that has a lot of adverse yaw, slips great, and doesn't have any instruments to speak of first? I can make an argument that this is an advantage, but it's a different question.
 
Ethan2002 said:
Right now, to travel a lot further and a little faster than I can in an ultralight. And take a passenger along, perhaps for a $120 burger. For just tooling around or doing light acrobatics it doesn't matter how fast I'm moving, but I have to choose between a machine capable of flying 150 miles at 55 mph, or a slower one stressed to 6Gs.
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My taildragger is light sport compliant, carries two folks, will go further than 150 miles on a tank of fuel and do so at LSA speeds (~120 knots).

The Sonex will do gentleman aerobatics but I don't fly upside down ... yet. The cockpit flight-deck isn't large but is comfortable for two as long as they are near normal size wise.
 
Albany Tom said:
....learning in an old aircraft that has a lot of adverse yaw, slips great, and doesn't have any instruments to speak of first? I can make an argument that this is an advantage, but it's a different question.
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My five hours of dual instruction are in a LSA Champ, which had a compass, asi, altimiter, tach, oil p, and oil t gauge. Instrumentation in the ultralights I have flown range from just a tach and a EGT to the Champ's set up with a dual EGT replacing the altimeter.
 
Daleandee said:
My taildragger is light sport compliant, carries two folks, will go further than 150 miles on a tank of fuel and do so at LSA speeds (~120 knots).

The Sonex will do gentleman aerobatics but I don't fly upside down ... yet. The cockpit flight-deck isn't large but is comfortable for two as long as they are near normal size wise.
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Yes, there are a lot of 1320 pound and under two-seaters that will cruise for a few hours at 75-115 mph, some are also capable of limited acrobatics, not to mention the plans and kits available for someone willing to schedule a little time (I disassembled and rebuilt the Chotia in 45 days and built a MiniMax derivative in 9 months.) A Sonex looks very doable.
 
For the private, 1 written test, 1 practical test.

For an SP and then a private, 2 written tests and 2 practical test. Figure $1200 in additional testing to do both the SP and private vs 1.
 
Clip4 said:
For the private, 1 written test, 1 practical test.

For an SP and then a private, 2 written tests and 2 practical test. Figure $1200 in additional testing to do both the SP and private vs 1.
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Wisconsin is not a high rent district but here testing for a SPL runs $630 ($160 for the written and $470 for the practical) while testing for a private runs $750 ($175 and $575).

I don't know if this is true -- because I've heard three slightly different versions and it pertains to instruction I received about 43 months ago -- but I was told that since the same CFI has to make* each endorsement towards a single licence obtaining a "stepping stone certificate" prevents having to retake any dual instruction should the original CFI not be avalible.

*I've also been told "be satisfied with" and "confer with and confirm" ...
 
One possible advantage is carrying a passenger sooner. Another is a better skill set (modern light sports take more skill to land), but you can accomplish that by getting your private in an LSA.

I agree with most of the comments here, both pro and con.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Another is a better skill set (modern light sports take more skill to land), but you can accomplish that by getting your private in an LSA.
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Paul B has a great video that helps explain why what you say is true:

 
Daleandee said:
Paul B has a great video that helps explain why what you say is true:

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It's kind of obvious if you think about it but I realized it when I flew my first modern LSA (that model in fact) a dozen years ago. I've also taught in them. Paul hates 'em. I love 'em.
 
Personal opinion, if there's no medical issue, then the Sport Pilot is mostly pointless.

Very few people are going to get the SPL *or* PPL in the minimum amount of time. By the time you have the skills to take the SPL, you've probably got the time and skills to take the PPL.
 
Bonchie said:
Personal opinion, if there's no medical issue, then the Sport Pilot is mostly pointless.

Very few people are going to get the SPL *or* PPL in the minimum amount of time. By the time you have the skills to take the SPL, you've probably got the time and skills to take the PPL.
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Doesn't really need to be a real medical issue ... see all the threads about applicants who have had issues with a long time ago DUI, a poorly given diagnoses for ADHD, possible arrest for a violent or sexual offense and they end up on the HIMS merry go round with all the associated cost, long waiting periods, special issuance hoops, etc. No thanks!

I have no such issues but simply chose Sport Pilot as it allows all I want to do in an airplane and I don't have to be concerned about getting caught up in the cogs of the FAA machinery. If I should decide to upgrade it's a few more dollars and more testing.

I understand your point but consider that there are a few of us that simply went with Sport Pilot because we can fly faster than most training aircraft, carry a passenger, day VFR, and fly into controlled airspace. Going onto PPL would have given me the ability to fly at night and over a solid cloud deck but I have no desire to do either of those ...
 
Daleandee said:
Doesn't really need to be a real medical issue ... see all the threads about applicants who have had issues with a long time ago DUI, a poorly given diagnoses for ADHD, possible arrest for a violent or sexual offense and they end up on the HIMS merry go round with all the associated cost, long waiting periods, special issuance hoops, etc. No thanks!
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Similarly, some folks have minor medical issues that FAA makes complicated and expensive. If Basic Med hadn't come along I would have stayed with SP. I didn't have any really complex medical issues, but I do have an autoimmune condition that required an SI. No way I'd go through that roulette game every year, with its associated hassles and tests and expense. One and done, Basic Med from now on. Otherwise I would have stayed a SP and been satisfied.

PP has given me a wider variety of airplanes to fly, and the one I bought will let me haul more people or a decent amount of luggage, but I've only done two or three flights so far that I couldn't have done in an LSA. For many of us, SP isn't all that limiting for practical purposes.
 
Ethan2002 said:
I don't know if this is true -- because I've heard three slightly different versions and it pertains to instruction I received about 43 months ago -- but I was told that since the same CFI has to make* each endorsement towards a single licence obtaining a "stepping stone certificate" prevents having to retake any dual instruction should the original CFI not be avalible.
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Not exactly true. When a CFI endorses an applicant for a checkride, the endorsement says the CFI has given the training necessary. I work with five other CFIs in a Part 61 training facility, and we all fly with each other's students from time to time. The primary instructor will review all the maneuvers before giving the checkride endorsement. But other endorsements such as solo, cross-country flights, etc. may have other CFI signatures.
 
From my memory, I think I only had to do about four things to get from sport to private. One was a longer cross country with an additional hop. I could've done the longer one for sport, but I would have had to make a fuel stop along the way with the cub, and didn't want to do that. One was instrument training. One was night training. And the final one was flights to a controlled field. All of my sport training counted, no problem, no special endorsements. But Albany area is small, and the DPEs and CFIs all knew each other.
 
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