Is the private pilot checkride harder today than it used to be?

2nd505th

2nd505th

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2nd505th
Is the private pilot checkride harder today than it used to be?

I’m just curious, after reading several threads. But it seems like the private is harder today than it was back when I took it in February 1983. It is hard for me to remember the details but it seemed like it was the easiest thing in the world. I would be curious from anybody who might have a better information.
 
N=2

I have the same perception. It seemed like it was a lot more about flying when I started, now it's a lot more about systems me thinks.
 
I don’t know, it seems to be about the same as when I took it in 1994. The one difference that I do note, though, is back then you didn’t get your XC assignment until the checkride started, then had 30 minutes to plan it, including calling to get the weather, doing all your calculations, picking checkpoints, etc. Now, the DPE will tell you what to plan weeks in advance, so you just need to update it that morning (which, if using an EFB, is trivially easy).
 
Only someone who had their certificates stripped and then started over can really answer this question.

I would suggest downloading the ACS and seeing how it compares to what you remember. What little I know suggests that the flying portion is pretty similar. I would expect the oral to be a bit harder as the FAR/AIM has grown in the last 40 years.

I would be interested to hear the perspective of a long-time cfi. Those are pretty rare, too though.
 
Is there an expected failure rate?
I remember in my freshman year of engineering, I was told look to the left, look to the right, one of you won’t graduate with an engineering degree. Sure enough we lost about 1/3 of the class.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Is there an expected failure rate?
I remember in my freshman year of engineering, I was told look to the left, look to the right, one of you won’t graduate with an engineering degree. Sure enough we lost about 1/3 of the class.
Click to expand...
Considering a cfi needs an 80% pass rate...
 
Maybe harder for the generation that gets "participation trophies"? ( Ducks and runs away)
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Is there an expected failure rate?
I remember in my freshman year of engineering, I was told look to the left, look to the right, one of you won’t graduate with an engineering degree. Sure enough we lost about 1/3 of the class.
Click to expand...

I remember that, lol. I told the guys on either side of me, "sucks to be you two" And they did both flunk out.
 
jbarrass said:
I have the same perception. It seemed like it was a lot more about flying when I started, now it's a lot more about systems me thinks.
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Can you still get your PP in a NORDO Cub?
 
Of course.

If you can find a CFI, an examiner, and a NORDO Cub to rent (or buy your own).

A pretty good approach I'd recommend, actually.
 
You’d have to make a direct comparison between the ACS and the old PTS...I doubt there’s a lot of difference.

I do see people talking about things on their Private oral that I don’t remember from 40 years ago, but I also see a lack of knowledge about things that I remember from my Private oral.
 
Perhaps someone can compare the checkride standards for, say, someone taking a checkride in 1980, to the standards for today.

Does anyone have the old PTS from around 1980?
 
I think probably, yes, it is harder.

That said, I’m betting the instrument rating is much easier.
 
Kritchlow said:
I think probably, yes, it is harder.

That said, I’m betting the instrument rating is much easier.
Click to expand...

I don't know about easier or not, but the skills required have definitely changed.

Yes, it is certainly much easier to actually fly a good course with GPS than it was without it. But with that comes a whole different type of knowledge required.

I did my instrument rating pre-GPS. Every aircraft at the USAF Aero Club, while not identical, had the same basic equipment - VOR, ILS, and some had NDB. They all had standard CDIs, no HSIs. With these, if you can use one type of VOR receiver, you can use pretty much any other common type. Not a lot of difference. Okay, on some you change the frequencies on the unit itself instead of with a separate radio, but that takes about 3 seconds to figure out. "how to turn on the ID feature" was about the toughest part to learn.

Now, however, you have to learn that stuff still, but you also have to learn how to program the GPS unit - and if you're hopping around between different airplanes, you may have a KLN-94 in one, a Garmin 430 in another, maybe an Avidyne in the third. So from this standpoint there's a whole lot more to learn, and the buttonology knowledge for one unit may not transfer to another unit. Add to that some having HSIs, some with G5 or Aspen panels, several different types of autopilots, and each plane can become challenging to understand how everything's integrated. In the past I had no problem learning this stuff, because there WAS none of this stuff in regular rental GA airplanes.

Another example - partial panel. It used to just be "vacuum system fails taking out your AI and DG" - every plane was basically the same as far as effect goes. But now? As a CFI I have to come up with a different "partial panel" for each plane I get in. Is the HSI electric but the AI vacuum? Both electric? If one fails what effect does it have on other systems? Is it an AHRS failure or an ADC failure? Does that cause other systems to no longer be useful? Will the autopilot be usable or not? If the DG part of the HSI fails is the CDI part still usable? System knowledge has become a big issue, whereas before it was pretty straightforward.
 
2nd505th said:
Is the private pilot checkride harder today than it used to be
Click to expand...

I talked to my time-traveling friend Dr. Brown about this and he said... "Great Scott! Inconclusive..."

Seriously.. who can really say? In 1983 there were probably fewer internet study guides and YouTube videos around to use in checkride prep. So maybe that made it harder then? Or maybe not since learners (or were they called students back then?) were used to getting knowledge from books and actual in-person ground school with a classroom and chalkboards.

Maybe it is easier now due to all the great online content and technology. Or maybe it is harder these days due to a more comprehensive ACS? Like someone commented above, it would be interesting to see a copy of the PTS from 1983.
 
I kind of surprised that none of us ...ahem... older pilots haven't made the claim it's easier now... how we had to walk to our checkride uphill... in the snow... we didn't have the magenta lines to follow...etc etc
 
Bob Noel said:
I kind of surprised that none of us ...ahem... older pilots haven't made the claim it's easier now... how we had to walk to our checkride uphill... in the snow... we didn't have the magenta lines to follow...etc etc
Click to expand...

I think it's probably about the same or maybe a little harder. I don't remember the formalized adm stuff when I took my checkride (1989). We didn't have access to weather data like today, so that adds a degree of difficulty. Airplanes still fly the same, no major changes there. The avionics are more complicated to deal with and it seems more and more pilots are starting in more complex aircraft, which makes the process more difficult, but that is done by choice. The airspace makes better sense IMO so there is that. We didn't have computerized test questions to review our knowledge, so that was tougher. There might be more to learn with evolving tech, but doing everything on paper sucked. So who knows, and does it really matter?
 
I'm guessing what makes it seem harder is all the electronics. On the other hand, in the old days, people didn't blink at flying around with just one VOR. Having two was a luxury.
 
No it is not harder today. I did mine in 94 and teach students now for the checkride. Majority of the stuff I’d the same.
 
Also depends a bit on where you go to take the checkride. I flew out to a small airport in rural MN, met with the examiner and after what was a very reasonable and relevant oral exam, flew his usual zig-zag around the field. If I had to take my checkride out of a towered field under a class B shelf, it would be more intimidating.
 
PaulS said:
Maybe harder for the generation that gets "participation trophies"? ( Ducks and runs away)
Click to expand...
I'm part of that generation and I hated that. Maybe I'm the outlier, I did go full on get off my lawn when I was 22... Now we're not even keeping score. Kids know who won. Least the competive ones like I was. I'm the assbag that is spiking the volleyball at the family reunions
 
Yes, it is more difficult. The flight maneuvers haven't changed much, but the knowledge and ADM requirements have increased substantially.
 
I'd have to think from what I have heard, that a PPL is easier now. Used to be normal training was in a tailwheel. I have heard that spins were required for a PPL. It seems, from what I have heard, is that requirements have been reduced.
I really wonder if stick and rudder skills have taken a back seat to all the new technology and teaching people not to do stupid stuff.
 
When I did slow flight on my check ride, the stall horn had to be blaring the whole time, now they want you to avoid having the stall horn remain on.
 
DesertNomad said:
When I did slow flight on my check ride, the stall horn had to be blaring the whole time, now they want you to avoid having the stall horn remain on.
Click to expand...

Yup, me too. I took my test on a gusty, turbulent day. We were getting banged around pretty good. I go to do slow flight, stall horn blaring, then the nose breaks, full stall. So I recovered, got back to the altitude I was supposed to be at, all the while the dpe was just giving me a "what was that?" look. Then I turned to him, and said "I stalled it, that wasn't supposed to happen, can I try again?". He smiled and said "go for it." I flew home with my new cert.
 
Hindsight my check ride was pretty easy although at the time I was super nervous and admittedly the details are a little fuzzy it was 30+ years ago. The oral exam was maybe 20-30 minutes of questions mostly related to the couple questions I missed on the written then maybe 20 minutes of discussion and questions on the cross-country I planned. Flight was exactly one hour.

The only thing I really messed up was the soft field. I explained what I was doing as I did it but hit pretty hard. He just said you would have buried us try again. The second one was perfect.

He actually had me do my landings at my home airport and told me to park it when I was done and I could drive him back to the class C about 30 minutes away. He said it would save me the money but all I could think is this guy is afraid to fly with me. :hairraise: Then he told me I passed. I was happy to drive him back figured I wouldn't have a chance for him to change his mind. :)
 
fasteddie said:
Found the Boomers.
Click to expand...
I'm not a boomer, but I failed (then passed) my checked in 93. It was 100% my fault, even though the examiner probably could have passed me.

We didn't get any planning info in advance. I also don't remember going over airplane logbooks, but we might have.
 
Back in 91 or 92 when I took mine the examiner had me do a stall under the hood. My CFI was surprised when I got back and told him. I guess that wasn't common? Do they not have you perform any stalls at all now?
 
Back when I was flying a King Air Part 135, on one 6 month check we did stalls, in the cloud, IMC, But that is an old man's airplane!

But back to the OP's question. There is no doubt in my mind that the PP ride is more difficult today. When I took my PP ride, in 1965, I doubt if there were any written instructions the examiner had to follow. Maybe....?
 
RussR said:
I don't know about easier or not, but the skills required have definitely changed.

Yes, it is certainly much easier to actually fly a good course with GPS than it was without it. But with that comes a whole different type of knowledge required.

I did my instrument rating pre-GPS. Every aircraft at the USAF Aero Club, while not identical, had the same basic equipment - VOR, ILS, and some had NDB. They all had standard CDIs, no HSIs. With these, if you can use one type of VOR receiver, you can use pretty much any other common type. Not a lot of difference. Okay, on some you change the frequencies on the unit itself instead of with a separate radio, but that takes about 3 seconds to figure out. "how to turn on the ID feature" was about the toughest part to learn.

Now, however, you have to learn that stuff still, but you also have to learn how to program the GPS unit - and if you're hopping around between different airplanes, you may have a KLN-94 in one, a Garmin 430 in another, maybe an Avidyne in the third. So from this standpoint there's a whole lot more to learn, and the buttonology knowledge for one unit may not transfer to another unit. Add to that some having HSIs, some with G5 or Aspen panels, several different types of autopilots, and each plane can become challenging to understand how everything's integrated. In the past I had no problem learning this stuff, because there WAS none of this stuff in regular rental GA airplanes.

Another example - partial panel. It used to just be "vacuum system fails taking out your AI and DG" - every plane was basically the same as far as effect goes. But now? As a CFI I have to come up with a different "partial panel" for each plane I get in. Is the HSI electric but the AI vacuum? Both electric? If one fails what effect does it have on other systems? Is it an AHRS failure or an ADC failure? Does that cause other systems to no longer be useful? Will the autopilot be usable or not? If the DG part of the HSI fails is the CDI part still usable? System knowledge has become a big issue, whereas before it was pretty straightforward.
Click to expand...
I don’t know... do today’s IR students have to do VOR/NDB intersection holding? DME arcs? Loc BC? Not that those were necessarily required for the checkride, but they were fair game and you had to train for them. I also remember the early rnav approaches... dialing in VOR, moving it 6.2 DME along the 274 radial to create a waypoint, then repeat.
 
Kritchlow said:
I don’t know... do today’s IR students have to do VOR/NDB intersection holding? DME arcs? Loc BC? Not that those were necessarily required for the checkride, but they were fair game and you had to train for them.
Click to expand...

My IR checkride was a ILS including the outbound back course from the NDB and procedure turn, then a partial panel VOR DME arc approach and then an NDB approach.

I learned the GPS stuff on my own with another IFR instrument rated friend. We pretty much taught each other how to use and fly the equipment.
 
Jim K said:
I would suggest downloading the ACS and seeing how it compares to what you remember.
Click to expand...

I renewed my CFI a couple times by flying with an examiner friend. Once was right after the switch to the ACS, so I spent some time reviewing it.

I can honestly say that were I about to learn to fly and had the ACS thrown at me, I’d have second thoughts. Maybe it’s the way it’s presented, but the tasks seem both numerous and onerous at first glance. Makes me doubt how well I would do today on a Private written or checkride!

Just a guess, but I doubt the practical test has changed all that much and is neither easier nor harder.
 
Kritchlow said:
I don’t know... do today’s IR students have to do VOR/NDB intersection holding? DME arcs? Loc BC? Not that those were necessarily required for the checkride, but they were fair game and you had to train for them. I also remember the early rnav approaches... dialing in VOR, moving it 6.2 DME along the 274 radial to create a waypoint, then repeat.
Click to expand...

They are still fair game and you have to train for them depending on the equipment in the aircraft, of course. VOR intersection holding, yes possibly. DME arcs? Yes. Loc BC? Yes, possibly, although at least in my state there are exactly zero LOC BC approaches, so I at least expose them to the theory of it using a normal localizer but flying its back course, if possible, or just flying the wrong way on final.

I imagine early RNAV units were not too common in training airplanes at that time. I know I never saw one in the airplanes I flew in the 90's.
 
Kritchlow said:
I don’t know... do today’s IR students have to do VOR/NDB intersection holding? DME arcs? Loc BC? Not that those were necessarily required for the checkride, but they were fair game and you had to train for them. I also remember the early rnav approaches... dialing in VOR, moving it 6.2 DME along the 274 radial to create a waypoint, then repeat.
Click to expand...

NDB are pretty much gone from the test, but I got my instrument 2 years ago and every thing else you listed I did in training and was fair game for the check ride, except the rnav stuff. You not only need to know that stuff, but if you are in a TAA you are expected to use the modern stuff too including the autopilot.
 
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