Is my dream of ever becoming a private pilot screwed?

[Tom Oytgoit]

Hi all,

I grew up loving airplanes and have always wanted to get my PPL. I was blessed with perfect vision and am healthy in every way except for one thing…

I’ve been seeing a therapist mainly due to the challenges of living alone during a pandemic. Recently my therapist diagnosed with OCD, since I will have things I obsess over. It can be as simple and dumb as spending 2 months obsessing over what color car I’m going to buy or spending hours upon hours trying to find the perfect 401K allocation. It can also be medical like I was scared and constantly googling forums for if I had X medical condition. She encourages me to start taking SSRIs to help out, and I’m unsure if I feel I really need to take it. Before the pandemic I didn’t have these obsessions to this degree.

I have a perfect driving record too, never gotten a speeding ticket, never been in an accident. My obsessions just happen in thoughts when I’m alone and have nothing to do. When I’m driving, I don’t get these thoughts at all.

I’m feeling disheartened because reading past forums about OCD, it seems like a death sentence to me getting a 3rd class medical for a PPL. And it’s frustrating because it’s not like I’m depressed or have bipolar or whatever.

Is there any hope? I want to fly a Cessna 172 one day, and so Sport license doesn’t allow you to do that. But I guess if it’s my only resort then I would consider it.

sigh I love aviation, and I’m feeling disheartened.

is there any hope if I do see an AME?

 

[PaulS]

Hmmmm, takes me a year to decide on a new car. Taking hours on a financial decision, if it's big enough probably more. There has to be more to this for that diagnosis. Don't apply for a medical unless you know you will be issued, that requires consulting with an expert AME. Hopefully one will check in.

 

[LesGawlik]

Yeah. If this is all reportable, I think a lot of us will have to amend our medical forms. That said, the medication could be a problem. I think the concern is that SSRIs can be prescribed for a broad spectrum of conditions, some trivial and some not trivial.

 

[Tom Oytgoit]

I

Yeah. If this is all reportable, I think a lot of us will have to amend our medical forms. That said, the medication could be a problem. I think the concern is that SSRIs can be prescribed for a broad spectrum of conditions, some trivial and some not trivial.

I don’t currently take medication, nor do I plan to to be honest.

I also guess it could be a misdiagnosis, but again, for now I’m just gonna assume it’s not.

 

[Tom Oytgoit]

Hmmmm, takes me a year to decide on a new car. Taking hours on a financial decision, if it's big enough probably more. There has to be more to this for that diagnosis. Don't apply for a medical unless you know you will be issued, that requires consulting with an expert AME. Hopefully one will check in.

I definitely was going to consult an AME first. I assume it’s easier never haven been prescribed medication?

My therapist also wanted me to talk to a psychiatrist about his opinion on meds, could be a good moment to double check if he thinks I actually have OCD? I don’t have compulsions, therapist said it’s just the O part…

 

[Tom Oytgoit]

I guess worst case scenario, sports license is still fun? I don’t care about doing this professionally.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

I guess worst case scenario, sports license is still fun? I don’t care about doing this professionally.

Given that 90% of the time small planes fly with two or fewer people, sure. Also, in a couple of years it's likely that the number of planes that are covered under "driver's license medical" will increase.

 

[Lindberg]

What kind of therapist? In most states, even a psychologist can't prescribe meds. And I wouldn't put much stock in a diagnosis from generic "therapists" either. If you believe you have OCD and are considering medication, I would go to an excellent psychiatrist, explain your situation very well and your concerns about an ill-considered diagnosis. Pay cash so there's no insurance pressure. See what he says.

 

[WannFly]

um... if OCD is a concern guess a lot of us will not be flying at all, a little bit of OCD is good. I am not a therapist and dont pretend to be one on the internet either, but things you described are fairly normal. I do extensive research before i buy anything - not that it matters because i will end up buying something that i liked in the first place making bad financial decisions, but i do the research nonetheless. get another opinion?

 

[Tom Oytgoit]

What kind of therapist? In most states, even a psychologist can't prescribe meds. And I wouldn't put much stock in a diagnosis from generic "therapists" either. If you believe you have OCD and are considering medication, I would go to an excellent psychiatrist, explain your situation very well and your concerns about an ill-considered diagnosis. Pay cash so there's no insurance pressure. See what he says.

All I know is that my therapist is a “board certified clinical psychologist” with a PsyD degree.

My therapist has already referred me to a psychiatrist, idk I guess I can ask if they can do it in cash

 

[Albany Tom]

Spending 2 months on a car color, or hours on a 401k plan sounds like you're an accountant or an engineer, not someone with a problem. Just a guy on the Internet.

 

[Tom Oytgoit]

Spending 2 months on a car color, or hours on a 401k plan sounds like you're an accountant or an engineer, not someone with a problem. Just a guy on the Internet.

LOL I do have a BS in electrical engineering. You’re right on the money!

 

[Dana]

Spending 2 months on a car color, or hours on a 401k plan sounds like you're an accountant or an engineer, not someone with a problem. Just a guy on the Internet.

 

[Tom Oytgoit]

Let’s say my therapist did put an OCD diagnosis on my medical record (I’m going to actually request medical records to see what they put), what happens then? Am I basically screwed?

 

[Rushie]

LOL I do have a BS in electrical engineering. You’re right on the money!

Lord yes. Another engineer here. I’m 6 months and counting trying to decide which kind of wallet to get for my first Bitcoin purchase. In my defense, I’m from the before times when invisible cyber money was unheard of, so it’s a lot to wrap one’s mind around.

It doesn’t sound to me from your first two examples that you’re obsessing uselessly over something random, but rather you have analysis paralysis. People with very analytical minds want to gather every scrap of information before making a decision. Often of course, there doesn’t exist all the answers, and you go down a rabbit hole trying to find them. Investment decisions are huge in that respect because it all depends on what is going to happen in the future, which of course unless you have a magic crystal ball, you can’t know, so you’re stuck having to make an extremely important decision without a complete set of facts. We engineer types don’t like that.

A car color, well you have to look at it every day for years, so it’s not random; it matters. I think of OCD as more obsessing over things that can’t be controlled, aren’t relevant, or aren’t a decision so much as a thing just stuck in your mind, such as repeatedly washing something that’s already clean, worries about unlikely threats such as germs or that you might be in an accident, even though you’ve already taken all reasonable measures for safety. These thoughts are intrusive, unwanted, persistent, and there’s no real goal. Whereas once you decide on your car color and buy the car, or settle on which 401(k), your issue is resolved and you get on with your life. If the decision ends up wrong you accept the consequences but in the meantime you don’t think about it any more.

But your fear of a disease and obsessive googling it does sound like OCD. Did this begin with the pandemic? Did you have nothing to do but be on the computer because you are alone at home plus being subjected to constant panic pron about germs? Or did you already do that prior to covid?

Is it possible the therapist meant OCPD? Which is a different thing. That would be a very controlling person, who isn’t bothered by intrusive thoughts, but who has a pervasive tendency to rigidity in many areas such as being overly organized, miserly with money, has to be in control of other people and things around them, and extreme perfectionism. Analysis paralysis carried to extreme sounds to me more like a feature of OCPD rather than OCD. The two things are completely different despite both containing the words, “obsessive”, “compulsive”, and “disorder”. But like logging vs legal PIC, they really ought to rename one of them because they aren’t the same thing and are too easily confused.

You went to the therapist because, “the challenges of living alone during a pandemic”. This is a temporary adjustment issue. Do you really have ongoing distress and dysfunction due to intrusive, unwanted obsessions, that aren’t a direct result of being isolated, alone, and bombarded with media messages of doom?

If you are truly distressed, see the psychiatrist and get help. But don’t do it just to keep pulling on this string to see how far it will unravel. Curiosity killed the cat.

I do strongly agree to consult with an AME before even looking in the direction of the FAA. True OCD is incompatible with flying because if I recall Dr. Bruce’s words correctly, it affects your “reality testing”. Maybe an AME will tell you that you’ve already gone too far into this and now must see a psychiatrist to disprove OCD. Or to confirm it in which case you should think about a different hobby. I imagine you might need to get all your records from this therapist to see what exactly is in there.

 

[Rushie]

Let’s say my therapist did put an OCD diagnosis on my medical record (I’m going to actually request medical records to see what they put), what happens then? Am I basically screwed?

You crossed posts with mine, good, get the records. You might not be screwed but might be in for a lot of expensive testing. The good news is you never took any SSRI or other drug (no ADHD drugs as a kid or anything else in the history?)

It would be worth the cost to consult a good AME such as one of the ones on this board and see what they say.

 

[Sinistar]

First - turn on your natural OCD researcher mode and obtain ALL the records to determine any and all actual diagnosis, etc. Know exactly what has been documented.

Your future AME's and FAA is going to want all this anyway so be one step ahead.

Then seek a consult only. But let the doc question you vs volunteering an Engineers level of detail.

You don't "read" like you're OCD.

You can also do something else. Go do a discovery flight. See if you even like it. You could technically fly right up to solo with no medical. I hope I have that right. In most cases you'd be told to wait but in your case before you start down a potentially drawn out medical that could also be expensive...go see if you even like being in the plane operating controls. Maybe even do about 3 flights and self assess if you are continually distracted or your CFI is having to say something.

Pull all the records first.

 

[Echo419]

OCD is misused in popular speech. It is now frequently used when people used to say "anal-retentive." Being thorough is not OCD.

OCD as defined in the DSM-V:
https://beyondocd.org/information-for-individuals/clinical-definition-of-ocd

 

[Beaker’s Flyin]

Lord yes. Another engineer here. I’m 6 months and counting trying to decide which kind of wallet to get for my first Bitcoin purchase. In my defense, I’m from the before times when invisible cyber money was unheard of, so it’s a lot to wrap one’s mind around.

It doesn’t sound to me from your first two examples that you’re obsessing uselessly over something random, but rather you have analysis paralysis. People with very analytical minds want to gather every scrap of information before making a decision. Often of course, there doesn’t exist all the answers, and you go down a rabbit hole trying to find them. Investment decisions are huge in that respect because it all depends on what is going to happen in the future, which of course unless you have a magic crystal ball, you can’t know, so you’re stuck having to make an extremely important decision without a complete set of facts. We engineer types don’t like that.

A car color, well you have to look at it every day for years, so it’s not random; it matters. I think of OCD as more obsessing over things that can’t be controlled, aren’t relevant, or aren’t a decision so much as a thing just stuck in your mind, such as repeatedly washing something that’s already clean, worries about unlikely threats such as germs or that you might be in an accident, even though you’ve already taken all reasonable measures for safety. These thoughts are intrusive, unwanted, persistent, and there’s no real goal. Whereas once you decide on your car color and buy the car, or settle on which 401(k), your issue is resolved and you get on with your life. If the decision ends up wrong you accept the consequences but in the meantime you don’t think about it any more.

But your fear of a disease and obsessive googling it does sound like OCD. Did this begin with the pandemic? Did you have nothing to do but be on the computer because you are alone at home plus being subjected to constant panic pron about germs? Or did you already do that prior to covid?

Is it possible the therapist meant OCPD? Which is a different thing. That would be a very controlling person, who isn’t bothered by intrusive thoughts, but who has a pervasive tendency to rigidity in many areas such as being overly organized, miserly with money, has to be in control of other people and things around them, and extreme perfectionism. Analysis paralysis carried to extreme sounds to me more like a feature of OCPD rather than OCD. The two things are completely different despite both containing the words, “obsessive”, “compulsive”, and “disorder”. But like logging vs legal PIC, they really ought to rename one of them because they aren’t the same thing and are too easily confused.

You went to the therapist because, “the challenges of living alone during a pandemic”. This is a temporary adjustment issue. Do you really have ongoing distress and dysfunction due to intrusive, unwanted obsessions, that aren’t a direct result of being isolated, alone, and bombarded with media messages of doom?

If you are truly distressed, see the psychiatrist and get help. But don’t do it just to keep pulling on this string to see how far it will unravel. Curiosity killed the cat.

I do strongly agree to consult with an AME before even looking in the direction of the FAA. True OCD is incompatible with flying because if I recall Dr. Bruce’s words correctly, it affects your “reality testing”. Maybe an AME will tell you that you’ve already gone too far into this and now must see a psychiatrist to disprove OCD. Or to confirm it in which case you should think about a different hobby. I imagine you might need to get all your records from this therapist to see what exactly is in there.

The struggle is real in the hard-wallet space of crypto! You’re not alone!

 

[write-stuff]

Just the fact that you were seeing a therapist is enough to throw up some major roadblocks. Hire Bruce Chien, MD.

 

[Lindberg]

Just the fact that you were seeing a therapist is enough to throw up some major roadblocks.

How so? Just the fact that he's seeing a therapist isn't even required to be reported absent a diagnosis.

 

[PaulS]

the struggle is real I’m the hardwallet space of crypto! You’re not alone!

Just use a paper wallet.

 

[bbchien]

How so? Just the fact that he's seeing a therapist isn't even required to be reported absent a diagnosis.

Unfortuantely the pulldowns say "Licensed healthcare provder". Clinical psychologist = has a license. sigh. The only exemption to reporting is "maritial counseling".

 

[Lindberg]

Unfortuantely the pulldowns say "Licensed healthcare provder". Clinical psychologist = has a license. sigh. The only exemption to reporting is "maritial counseling".

And fortunately, the instructions say counseling isn't reportable unless "related to a personal substance abuse or psychiatric condition." So martial counseling is far from the only exception.

https://aviatorshq.com/can-pilots-see-a-therapist-psychologist/

 

[Tom Oytgoit]

First - turn on your natural OCD researcher mode and obtain ALL the records to determine any and all actual diagnosis, etc. Know exactly what has been documented.

Your future AME's and FAA is going to want all this anyway so be one step ahead.

Then seek a consult only. But let the doc question you vs volunteering an Engineers level of detail.

You don't "read" like you're OCD.

You can also do something else. Go do a discovery flight. See if you even like it. You could technically fly right up to solo with no medical. I hope I have that right. In most cases you'd be told to wait but in your case before you start down a potentially drawn out medical that could also be expensive...go see if you even like being in the plane operating controls. Maybe even do about 3 flights and self assess if you are continually distracted or your CFI is having to say something.

Pull all the records first.

and honestly if sports pilots the only way, and it seems unlikely I would get a medical, then that wouldn’t be bad either. I’m short so a light sport aircraft would be ideal for my height haha

 

[sourdough44]

I think you need a whole new direction in life. Maybe get a dog or something. I feel many won’t be satisfied until every last one of us is on prescription meds.

I’d at least look at a qualified, 2nd opinion.

 

[Half Fast]

and honestly if sports pilots the only way, and it seems unlikely I would get a medical, then that wouldn’t be bad either. I’m short so a light sport aircraft would be ideal for my height haha

So stop obsessing over the medical and go get a Sport Pilot license. Fly with that for a while, and only if you find it won't meet your needs go investigate an FAA medical. Don't play FAA medical roulette when you don't have to.

If you get a Sport ticket all your training will count toward Private if you later decide to go that way, so there's nothing lost.

 

[Albany Tom]

This is good advice.

 

[sarangan]

Hi all,

I grew up loving airplanes and have always wanted to get my PPL. I was blessed with perfect vision and am healthy in every way except for one thing…

I’ve been seeing a therapist mainly due to the challenges of living alone during a pandemic. Recently my therapist diagnosed with OCD, since I will have things I obsess over. It can be as simple and dumb as spending 2 months obsessing over what color car I’m going to buy or spending hours upon hours trying to find the perfect 401K allocation. It can also be medical like I was scared and constantly googling forums for if I had X medical condition. She encourages me to start taking SSRIs to help out, and I’m unsure if I feel I really need to take it. Before the pandemic I didn’t have these obsessions to this degree.

I have a perfect driving record too, never gotten a speeding ticket, never been in an accident. My obsessions just happen in thoughts when I’m alone and have nothing to do. When I’m driving, I don’t get these thoughts at all.

I’m feeling disheartened because reading past forums about OCD, it seems like a death sentence to me getting a 3rd class medical for a PPL. And it’s frustrating because it’s not like I’m depressed or have bipolar or whatever.

Is there any hope? I want to fly a Cessna 172 one day, and so Sport license doesn’t allow you to do that. But I guess if it’s my only resort then I would consider it.

sigh I love aviation, and I’m feeling disheartened.

is there any hope if I do see an AME?

If a pilot checks weather every 10 minutes, is that a disqualifying medical condition?

We don't know the seriousness of your condition, but it is possible that you jumped the gun and went on medication, causing long term complications to your helth as well as your flying ambitions. Many physicians are too quick to prescribe SSRIs. They also used to prescribe opioids, and look where that landed us.

 

[Tom Oytgoit]

If a pilot checks weather every 10 minutes, is that a disqualifying medical condition?

We don't know the seriousness of your condition, but it is possible that you jumped the gun and went on medication, causing long term complications to your helth as well as your flying ambitions. Many physicians are too quick to prescribe SSRIs. They also used to prescribe opioids, and look where that landed us.

I haven’t gone on medication at all actually

 

[Tom Oytgoit]

You crossed posts with mine, good, get the records. You might not be screwed but might be in for a lot of expensive testing. The good news is you never took any SSRI or other drug (no ADHD drugs as a kid or anything else in the history?)

It would be worth the cost to consult a good AME such as one of the ones on this board and see what they say.

Looks like in order to go to therapy under insurance, there has to be a diagnosis in order for the insurance company to pay for it. I called my insurance company and it looks like it is there. Now I really regret seeing a therapist now…

My other dream was to eventually even fly for an airline. Sigh, guess I need to be more realistic now :/

 

[Rushie]

Looks like in order to go to therapy under insurance, there has to be a diagnosis in order for the insurance company to pay for it.

THIS ^^^^ is what screws everybody up. People get a little unhappy, go talk to a professional but want it paid for by insurance which of course exists only to pay for actual disease. The therapist wants to make money so wants you to come, you want help and don’t mind somebody else paying for it, so the therapist codes you for something, anything, and everybody wins. (Except the insurance company.)

This works as long as 1) you’re not trying to be a pilot or do other stuff that requires a clean bill of mental health, and 2) you don’t mind this kind of quasi-insurance fraud. It’s quasi because psychology is a soft science, an argument can be made your disorder is real, because mental disorder diagnoses rely heavily upon the patients’ testimony. Look up the Rosenhan study.

And you didn’t intend to defraud the insurance company, you aren’t the professional, all you knew is you were unhappy. Maybe the therapist isn’t intentionally lying either, you have symptoms they think meet a criteria well enough to code for payment. The thing is, it would have been much better if the code had been for temporary adjustment problems due to the pandemic.

So you have learned from bitter first hand experience what to do the next time you’re unhappy because worldwide mass hysteria forced you to isolate like nature never intended humans to do. Find a therapist that will take cash and write paper notes that never connect to the internet. Or find a priest. Or hire this guy:

https://*******consulting.com/

He doesn’t take insurance. Well the link won’t work because of the swear word filter. Just replace the stars with a word that starts with “a” and references termination of the alimentary canal.

Anyways, good luck sorting it out. Keep us informed how it goes if you don’t mind.

 

[Tom Oytgoit]

THIS ^^^^ is what screws everybody up. People get a little unhappy, go talk to a professional but want it paid for by insurance which of course exists only to pay for actual disease. The therapist wants to make money so wants you to come, you want help and don’t mind somebody else paying for it, so the therapist codes you for something, anything, and everybody wins. (Except the insurance company.)

This works as long as 1) you’re not trying to be a pilot or do other stuff that requires a clean bill of mental health, and 2) you don’t mind this kind of quasi-insurance fraud. It’s quasi because psychology is a soft science, an argument can be made your disorder is real, because mental disorder diagnoses rely heavily upon the patients’ testimony. Look up the Rosenhan study.

And you didn’t intend to defraud the insurance company, you aren’t the professional, all you knew is you were unhappy. Maybe the therapist isn’t intentionally lying either, you have symptoms they think meet a criteria well enough to code for payment. The thing is, it would have been much better if the code had been for temporary adjustment problems due to the pandemic.

So you have learned from bitter first hand experience what to do the next time you’re unhappy because worldwide mass hysteria forced you to isolate like nature never intended humans to do. Find a therapist that will take cash and write paper notes that never connect to the internet. Or find a priest. Or hire this guy:
https://*******consulting.com/
https://*******consulting.com/

He doesn’t take insurance. Well the link won’t work because of the swear word filter. Just replace the stars with a word that starts with “a” and references termination of the alimentary canal.

Anyways, good luck sorting it out. Keep us informed how it goes if you don’t mind.

Yeah I would have been totally fine paying cash, if I had knew my dream of a pilots license would get screwed by using insurance…ugh I started therapy at 18 so I didn’t know any better.

I’ll try to see what I can do. I’ll still be happy with a sports license if all else fails.

 

[Rushie]

Yeah I would have been totally fine paying cash, if I had knew my dream of a pilots license would get screwed by using insurance…ugh I started therapy at 18 so I didn’t know any better.

I’ll try to see what I can do. I’ll still be happy with a sports license if all else fails.

You are not alone. Many of us, myself included, made the same or similar mistakes. Although I’m unsure if paying cash will save you if there is ever an incident. It would keep the FAA from finding out for certification but if you crash there will be deeper investigations and if it’s found you were evading detection because you actually have a disqualifying condition it can be bad for your estate. The best course is to go to a non-medical professional, or if you need better help, at first visit talk about certification issues and make clear you want care taken not to “upcode” you if your problem can be labeled something more benign like temporary adjustment, or as Bruce said marriage counseling which I assume includes any partnership or relationship.

 

[aterry1067]

Yeah I would have been totally fine paying cash, if I had knew my dream of a pilots license would get screwed by using insurance…ugh I started therapy at 18 so I didn’t know any better.

I’ll try to see what I can do. I’ll still be happy with a sports license if all else fails.

Don't give up. Stay off any meds unless you really need it. Just understand that the psychologist gets money to refer you to a psychiatrists, and the psychiatrist gets money by prescribing you meds whether you need it or not.

Everything I have read seems to be a normal day for most of the engineers I know.

I agree with @sourdough44 that many folks in the med/psych field have a deep seated interest in medicating anyone that walks in their door.

 

[Albany Tom]

THIS ^^^^ is what screws everybody up. People get a little unhappy, go talk to a professional but want it paid for by insurance which of course exists only to pay for actual disease. The therapist wants to make money so wants you to come, you want help and don’t mind somebody else paying for it, so the therapist codes you for something, anything, and everybody wins. (Except the insurance company.)

....

Best post on Internet this week... 1930's regulations + risk aversion of medical community + insurance company's involvement in the practice of medicine

 

[Tom Oytgoit]

Would trying to see a psychiatrist who could disprove the OCD help? Idk if it even works that way, but the therapist referred me to a psychiatrist so maybe I can talk to him. The prior time that I did talk to him, he told me I sound like I don’t have any mental health condition.

 

[SkyChaser]

Would trying to see a psychiatrist who could disprove the OCD help? Idk if it even works that way, but the therapist referred me to a psychiatrist so maybe I can talk to him. The prior time that I did talk to him, he told me I sound like I don’t have any mental health condition.

I think if you've already had the OCD code in your diagnosis history, the "bell has been rung", as they say. The FAA will have some very strict ideas of what kind of testing, etc., that you'll have to go through to disprove your supposed OCD, and unfortunately, I doubt it will be as simple as getting a psychiatrist to testify that you don't have OCD.

 

[DFH65]

Go Sport Pilot get an Aeronca Champ and have a blast. Hopefully they will eventually expand the weight range on Light Sport to include at least a 172.

I know someone who has purely obsessive OCD. I can tell they don't obsess much about things like the perfect 401K allocation or the color of paint on your car. Their thoughts are far more scary for them. For example: They hit a pot hole and live in fear for weeks and have panic attacks because they are certain that the cops are going to come get them because they think may have hit a person. They think they are going to hurt someone they love because they had a passing thought of it. They question their sexuality because they had a passing thought of of it.

Not all people with OCD touch the door knob 20 times or are clean and neat.

 

[Tom Oytgoit]

I think if you've already had the OCD code in your diagnosis history, the "bell has been rung", as they say. The FAA will have some very strict ideas of what kind of testing, etc., that you'll have to go through to disprove your supposed OCD, and unfortunately, I doubt it will be as simple as getting a psychiatrist to testify that you don't have OCD.

Would there be any hope when I do decide to pursue 3rd class to get my PPL if I’m okay with spending a lot of $$$ on testing and consulatations? My “OCD” is nothing like most people with OCD. Feel like I got conned by my therapist.