is GA dream at all realistic?

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John Lillard

Filing Flight Plan
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Hi. This is my first post to this forum, and I'm not a pilot, but I'd like to hear from some. I'm John and I live in the far west 'burbs of Chicago. I love aviation, but somehow in the my high school and college years I got distracted listening to what other people told me I should be focusing on. Long story short, I'm about to turn 36, married, and I have one kid, we'd like to have more.

Ideally, I want to learn to fly, but I have no real reason to. At most I feel I'd use it to go see family in Boise(1230nm), Denver(766nm), St. Louis(219nm), or New Hampshire(746nm) (we're pretty spread out!). There is a part of me who'd of course love to have billions of dollars and own like a Piaggo Avanti or a PC12 or something that could make those flights pretty easily, but those all seem like "big boy" aircraft, and like I said, I don't even know where to start, or if the costs of me even starting make sense. Maybe this is just something that should always be a dream???

So let's say I picked one of those four destinations a month. I *think* from Chicago, Boise is the furthest one at 1230nm and of course where the largest amount of family is... Let's say i want to take me, wife, 2 kids, my mom, and my dog to Boise ~once per month. Obviously, I'm not saying this needs to be done in one stop, but a cessna at 120nm/hr (is that right?) we're talking 10hrs plus time on the ground to refuel and use the bathroom. Feels more like 2 days... If I could shave it down to a more reasonable day there, and day back, that'd be awesome.

Can you help sell me a dream?
I need a private pilots license, and probably an IFR rating to go that far cross country, right?
What type of aircraft? a twin? that's another rating though not as big a deal, right? Can a rent an aircraft like that, or does make more sense for partial ownership or even full ownership of something?
is a career associated with aviation too late? I'm in marketing/comp sci right now. I've kept my eyes open for say, working for Pilatus on my radar.

what's the real cost of this dream both in time and money. Is this dream worth holding onto? My father has/had a license. He hasn't been current since I was little, but i think in theory a new medical and landings he could theoretically fly again (though to be safe he'd probably need some freshers). I've thought about us doing the trainings together to give us something to do together.

Anyway, if you've read this far, thank you.
if you don't mind giving me your two cents, I'd appreciate it.

--John
 
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If you've always wanted to learn how to fly and can financially afford to do so, just go for it. Long distance trips, with stayovers for multiple days are hard to make happen with rental aircraft - there is the issue of availability, and also a 'daily minimum' charge. If all you could do was putter around local area now and then, or take some breakfast/lunch flights, and the occasional weekend trip to a place not too far off, would you enjoy it? Maybe take a couple of lessons and see how you like it.
 
This is an expensive hobby but is very enjoyable. Your mission definitely requires at a minimum six place aircraft - easily six figures to own + costs... I just got my PPL this year with similar lifelong ambition to fly that just took awhile to fruition. Most enjoyable time is taking the kids up and having them view the city and country - and to get their hands on the controls.
 
When I started my Private training many years ago I had no real reason to do it, I just wanted to. That comes first. YOU have to want it. I ended up getting my CFI and an ATP, and ended up at an airline with a few type ratings in turboprops and jets. And now I've come full circle, back flying GA planes, even a C150 I like trained in.

Sounds like you've researched a lot of it. It ain't cheap. I think you should go to a local airport or two and fly a couple of Discovery flights. While there they will answer all your questions and tell ya how much they'll remove from your wallet. As Azblackbird wrote, just do it man!

Ask anything here on POA. Majority of us try to be helpful, especially to newbies. We all were in your shoes once too. Good luck!
 
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You're asking a bunch of pilots if flying is a good idea? o_O That's like asking crack addicts if crack is fun.

I love traveling this way. I get to set my own schedule, plus it's fun. I tell my friends and co-workers, when you travel commercial you have to go find your rental car when you get to your destination, but when I fly private my rental car finds me. :cool:

Boise is a bit far, but doable. Denver and New Hampshire would be a bit far in a 172. St Louis would be no big deal.

Having an IR (instrument rating) will definitely help you in traveling. Plenty of pilots don't have and have flown hundreds of hours. It opens up a lot more weather for flying though and that makes your travel more predictable on a calendar. Not absolutely perfect, heck the airlines cancel flights due to weather and they are flying far more capable machines.

Start off taking lessons and see if you really do enjoy it. Hopefully you will and get a private pilot certificate. Start taking short trips up to Wisconsin or to St Louis and see how it goes. Work your way up to faster planes and getting your instrument rating.

On a shorter trip such as going to St Louis speed isn't a huge factor. A 172 would get you there in about two hours. A SR22 would get you there in about 1:30. That's only 30 minutes less, so a time savings, but not a big one. The Boise trip is a completely different answer. First there are some mountains in the way of a direct flight. It is possible to go over them, around is not that much further and much easier to do in small general aviation planes. At 1275 nm you are looking at 10:30 non-stop in a 172, which means multiple stops and 7:30 non-stop in a SR22. The speed saved 3 hours of flight time. The savings gets bigger though. Bathroom and fuel stops mean 3 or more likely 4 legs in the 172 or 1 or more likely 2 stops in the SR22. Stopping takes time. So yes, in a 172 you are probably looking at a two day trip as you are looking at 13+ hours of travel time. Even in the SR22 you are looking at ~9 hours of travel.

Flying commercial at that distance will generally be quicker and cheaper on commercial. Plus you would be dealing with icing conditions for half of the year for those locations. That will be more limiting on a small general aviation plane than on a commercial jet.

It's not cheap. In a metro area you are probably looking at $10k for your private pilot's certificate. Then more for your instrument rating. There may be some flying clubs in your area. Those can help bring the cost down, both learning and flying after you get your license.
 
Do it. It's going to be a significant time and financial investment but you'll enjoy it.
 
You won't regret it, if it's something you're passionate about.
John Lillard said:
what's the real cost of this dream both in time and money.
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For the Private Certificate + Instrument Rating, I would budget $50,000 (+-). I don't know the rates in the Chicago area, although I'm sure they're on the higher side.
 
wayne said:
You're asking a bunch of pilots if flying is a good idea? o_O That's like asking crack addicts if crack is fun.

SNIP
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Good post, but he wants to fly 5 people and a dog, not going to happen in a 172 or SR22. Were talking Twin category, or at least a 6 place single if were talking about reasonably priced aircraft that may be on a rental line. OP, I would first suggest getting your pilots certificate first and see where you want to go from there, don't put the cart before the horse.
John Lillard said:
or if the costs of me even starting make sense.
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The cost will never make sense, throw that notion out the window. Fly because you love to fly, your not going to save any time or money flying yourself 1200 miles over taking Southwest (unless you got the means to own a TBM or something).
 
Ryanb said:
You won't regret it, if it's something you're passionate about.

For the Private Certificate + Instrument Rating, I would budget $50,000 (+-). I don't know the rates in the Chicago area, although I'm sure they're on the higher side.
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Really? $50k for Private and IR?? I only have my private so far, but got it part 61 in the Houston area for right around $10k. I would think Chicago area would be pretty similar cost, but I don't know...

To OP: as others have said, if it's something you want to do, go for it. My story is just like yours. Always wanted to fly, but let people talk me out of it. I'm about to be 36 myself and wishing I had done this earlier. I'm having a blast just flying the kids or friends around and exploring new airports. Looking to get my IR in the next year or so to make the cross country trips easier to schedule.
 
Matt said:
Really? $50k for Private and IR?? I only have my private so far, but got it part 61 in the Houston area for right around $10k. I would think Chicago area would be pretty similar cost, but I don't know...
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I did put "(+-)" so in that ballpark. I consider 15k-20k for a PPL and 15k-20k for IR, plus their cross country and various hours in-between. Again, I don't know the going figures in that area, but considering Chicago is a high money area like LA, it's not too far of a stretch to assume. 40k-45k might be a closer number.
 
G-force said:
Good post, but he wants to fly 5 people and a dog, not going to happen in a 172 or SR22. Were talking Twin category, or at least a 6 place single if were talking about reasonably priced aircraft that may be on a rental line. OP, I would first suggest getting your pilots certificate first and see where you want to go from there, don't put the cart before the horse.
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Yeah, I missed that at first. I saw the wife and one kid, which is where he's at now.

With 3 adults, two kids and a dog, plus stuff, many six seaters aren't going to do it well either. At that point it could easily be that bigger twins or turboprops are a better solution. Then the dollars go way up.

I agree with starting with PPL, then getting the wife and kid onboard for some short flights. May find that everyone doesn't like it so much. Maybe you find they love it and you keep moving on.
 
I started at 35 and married. Do your medical homework first, then go for it. Private around 10k, instrument a bit less.
 
If I were doing that, I'd get a lance or glass air, knowing you'll need to dodge ice, if you can just roll you plus 1...

But...for your exact requirements...

And a hair slower and less advanced, get a nice FIKI C210.

That said training, will be a HUGE factor, find a CFI with real experience, as in ATP/CFI who flown single pilot IFR for a living.

I'd also recommend getting your PPL in a glider or small Tailwheel, buying the lance or 210 and doing your instrument in that.


All in very doable, but you need a real experienced CFI, not some lil hour builder or hobby pilot CFI. I'd offer some CFI recommendations but I don't have any leads in that area.

Money wise, figure about 120k+ for the plane, call around for hangars, check with air power insurance form those prices, figure 60hrs for your PPL, little under that for your IFR, $50-65hr for a CFI, fuel burn at 15GPH and $4-5.50 a gal for gas.
 
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There's two agendas at play here. Getting a license, and the economics of ownership. They're not one in the same.

Boise @ 1200NM and 800+ cabin payload? That's a 40-50K/yr expenditure before capital costs. Think C-340 et al. A turbo 210 maybe, oxygen ops for that gaggle of people, sounds painful. Without Boise, out to 600NM, your ownership can be attained for as little as 15K/yr (amortized for YOY mx variances) before capital outlay, on a cherokee six cabin sized airplane and slow speeds. Chicago screws up that math due to hangaring. Life's [somewhat of] a choice.

Regarding pro aviation career change. Sorry, I think that ship has sailed for someone in your specific household circumstances. No I won't qualify my answer on here, it'll trigger too many people and I don't really care that much about it to get into another holy war over it on POA.

As to the PPL. Do it. No ownership required. It could be the beginning of a lifestyle change of epic proportions to your life, or it could fizzle like your dad's stint. No harm no foul.

That's as succinct as I can put it for ya, based on the limited information you provided.Good luck to ya.
 
A private pilot certificate for single-engine airplanes and no instrument rating did not stop me from flying up and down the west coast and across the country ..but I never had more than one passenger. Start small and build on your experience...the instrument rating and multiengine rating will come in time. You do not need to own an airplane; renting, partnership, or a flying club will suffice.

When I was learning to fly I never dreamed that I would someday fly corporate jets (heck, there weren't any jets when I learned to fly) or earn an airline transport pilot certificate....I just enjoyed flying and learning. You will, too.

Keep your day job and forget about flying as a career.

Bob
 
For now, forget about the long cross countries, the IR, and what airplane to buy. Instead, find a local flight school and take a few lessons. If you like it, press on with your private. Worry about the rest later. Baby steps.
 
Hi there! All great questions. This will be a heavily biased, lengthy post. :) As others have said, you're walking into a drughouse asking for opinions about heroin. With that disclaimer, I hope it’s helpful.

First thing is that it sound like you’re interested in flying for flying’s sake. That’s key, in my view. The reality is that you have to really love it; it can’t JUST be about being more “efficient” for work or personal travel. If you take into account the cost of training, cost of purchasing a capable cross-country aircraft, maintenance, fuel, hangar, insurance, etc., you’d be surprised how close you get to "The NetJets Threshold,” which means that you’re almost at the point where you could simply buy an hours card on one of these operators. You can even buy an aircraft and then hire a commercial pilot to fly it for you; there are LOTS of businesses (and a few non-pilot individuals) who purchase piston twins all the way up to jets and do this exact thing. I knew a guy who purchased a 310, hired a pilot, and then decided he wanted to learn to fly it after a few years watching the guy he was paying up front having all the fun.

All that said, the great thing about aviation is that it’s a hobby that is ALSO really useful. There aren’t many hobbies that also have a real practical side about them. So, that’s all a long way of saying that it’s good that you don’t necessarily have a practical need to learn. In fact, if you came here and said “I need to fly 1,000 mile trips, monthly, in all weather, and I want to learn how to fly just so I can do that,” you’d be setting yourself up for disappointment.

You’re in almost the perfect sweet spot, though. You want to learn how to fly, and you also have some great uses for that skill once you develop it (more on that later). That’s pretty ideal. So I’d say definitely go for it. Go take some intro flights and see what you think. Definitely take your time picking a flight school. There are a lot of lousy flight schools out there. Talk to the CFIs, talk to the owners, and TALK TO STUDENTS THERE. I can’t emphasize this enough. We lose so many promising students to bad schools. Better to drive an hour to a good school than 15 minutes to the closest-but-lousy one. The kinds of people who want to run flight schools love flying airplanes (or working on them) and often are terrible at literally everything else: business savvy; customer service; often instructing itself—everything. It’s just reality.

Also—and this is key for you—ask about their rental policies once you get your ticket. You want a place that lets you take the plane overnight for a least a bit of time. This won’t be a long-term thing; ultimately, you’re going to have to buy or partner into a plane. A club might be an option but probably isn’t if you’re really looking to travel. Early on, though, it’s nice to have at least a decent rental option so you can start feeling things out without a huge capital expense.

Once you get your ticket, that trip to St. Louis will be great. You won’t be able to get everyone into a 172 (typical rental), but you could fly your wife and maybe the kids—and the dog stays home and Mom takes the airlines. Or some other variation. Maybe the first couple times, you just go solo and meet them all there. Whatever; you’ll figure it out, and it’ll be loads of fun. You’ll be pretty limited on weather, so if you absolutely NEED to get there, buy some refundable airline tickets just in case. But you’ll be able to make some really fun trips, especially in the summer. Cost is probably around $10-$12k to get the ticket and then a couple hundred bucks an hour to rent, likely with some minimum number of hours billed for every night the plane isn’t at the home base.

If that seems cool, then next up is the instrument rating. After a bunch of trips to St. Louis, you’ll have all the prerequisites needed for the IFR work. That rating is another $10k—pretty much whatever your private cost, maybe a bit less. At this point, you’ll have a good sense of whether this is for you, and you’ll have learned a lot about things like useful load (i.e. how many people you can actually carry in a given airplane and go a given distance), how to analyze performance charts, how to haircut the manufacturers’ BS on advertised speeds and range, what weather you can really tackle in something that isn’t an airliner, etc. This is a fun time, and you’ll probably start looking at getting your own ride.

Airplane costs are all over the map. Like cars, aircraft depreciate heavily after just a few years. The difference from cars is that there is ALWAYS a more capable plane for the same money, used. So you’ll get a lot of people who just look at you like you’re crazy for buying new. With cars, it’s always “you’re paying X amount more for new,” but with planes it’s more like “for that price, you could get a jet!” Anyway, this is all stuff you’ll learn as you gain more experience and talk to other pilots, and there aren’t any right answers. At the higher end, operating cost tends to become more important relative to acquisition cost.

I’ll give you a few quick-and-dirty data points just to help you calibrate (I’m not actually recommending any of these airplanes; I have no clue about your budget or a million other variables that matter). A brand-new loaded Cirrus SR22T is around $800k and probably costs around $200/hour to operate. Seats five (it’s VERY tight with five: you need to leave off fuel, and your passengers will probably hate you). It won’t carry everything you want to carry, but it’ll do most of your trips pretty nicely except Boise; you’d absolutely need a fuel stop for that one, and at that point, you’re really losing ground to the airlines. Not that it can’t be a lot of fun to fly yourself on some really long trips, but in terms of efficiency, time, (and money, but you almost always lose on the money front), the airlines will win.

Another data point: my plane. Acquisition cost was about $430k, and it costs me around $500/hr to operate including engine reserves. By the way, the manufacturer has a nice cost breakdown here: http://aerostaraircraft.com/Super 700 Operating.pdf. Obviously, it’s just for my plane, but it should give you at least a sense of the categories you should be considering for opex. It’s also pretty honest compared to a lot of these I’ve seen from others. My costs are higher than book because I live in an expensive area of the country (Seattle) and fly into expensive areas, including The People’s Republik of California, where fuel frequently touches $6/gal.

Jam-packed, it’ll carry seven, and two of them had better be kids (kind of like the Cirrus with five). Real-life, five people are very comfortable. Five people and a non-miniature dog would be pushing it. All of those trips would be doable, but Boise would necessitate a fuel stop on whichever leg was seeing a headwind. With five adults, even the 700NM trips might be pushing it because I couldn’t carry full fuel.

Now, let’s jump up to an aircraft that would really do that Boise trip with no sweat: a nice, 10 year old CJ2. Friend of mine has one, so I know it pretty well. It’s around $2.5mm to acquire, and including engine reserves probably around $1k/hour to operate (but at 400 knots, you’re 60% faster than I am, so it’s not as bad as it sounds). It would carry your entire passenger load (and the doggie) in pretty good comfort, and it’s got a potty (not airliner-quality, but good enough for emergencies). An older King Air would do it slower and for a lot less in acquisition cost but probably about the same operating cost (per trip, not per hour).

Now, for the jet, you’re going to be investing a lot in training. Even something like my plane isn’t a good option early-on; you’re just having to learn so much at once. I’d think a plane that can do 100% of what you want is seven figures in terms of cost and a few years out in terms of experience if you’re flying a lot and are willing to hire a mentor pilot to come with you for the first 50 hours or so in the plane (and when you’re spending seven figures, this really shouldn’t be too big of a deal). The single-engine turboprops might be a good play, too, and will have really appealing operating costs relative to the King Airs and jets. PC-12 is slow and carries a ton; TBM is fast and carries quite a bit less. If you can compromise on how many people you’re taking along and don’t mind taking the airlines for the longest of your trips, then you’ve got plenty of single-engine aircraft to choose from and a ton of piston twins. The bigger piston twins will carry everything you want, but your Boise trip will still be a stretch. Keep in mind, too, that as you move up in performance, your number of usable airports decreases. I’m flying with family to Oregon on Friday, and there’s a 2,900' strip literally five minutes from where they’re staying . . . which would be swell if I owned an SR22. With three people, my balanced field length is about 4,000', so the time I save being 40% faster than the 22 gets more than eaten up by having to land at the less convenient airport. Everything’s a tradeoff.

Anyway, I hope that’s a helpful overview of where things are going. My advice: start small, doing that St. Louis trip in the summer in a rented 172 and gradually building up. Unless you’re an actual billionaire with your own BBJ, you’re never going to do every trip in your plane. I’ve been eyeing the CJ3 for a few years now, and even if I did buy that someday, I would still take the airlines for my Seattle to JFK trips (and even in first class, I'd be saving thousands). I don't think an airplane exists that is single-pilot certified and can do coast-to-coast nonstop. I’ve flown as a passenger in a G-IV from Philadelphia to Innsbruck, and I’ll probably never do it again; business class on Lufthansa is about 5x more pleasant and (literally) 10x cheaper, even accounting for the TSA groping.
 
No. No dream is at all realistic. Until it is realized.

I'm living my dream. You?
 
Oh, and as far as a career in aviation, it's like being an artist. You're competing with people who LOVE this stuff and will practically work for free. They bid the prices way down. Either earn a lot of money to buy these expensive toys, or forget the toys and do what you love (whether that's flying or playing the violin). This graphic from Cracked is spot-on:


309744_v1.jpg
 
1. Check the medical situation before you do anything else.
2. Have enough regular income AFTER contributions to your retirement accounts so the wife can spend equally on whatever HER hobby is as you spend on flying (what she spends on the baby and the house doesn't count), unless her hobby is flying too, otherwise your flying will become a marital issue.
3. Take lessons.
4. Cross the rest of the bridges as you get to them.
 
And yeah---pay attention to what people are saying about the medical stuff. Especially with some of the equipment you're eyeing (well, what we're eyeing on your behalf ;)), basicmed won't be adequate, so you'll need a regular old third class medical every few years. It's not a big deal for most people, especially in your 30s, but there are a lot of disqualifying/complicating problems you can run into, especially if you have any kind of "medical history."

Around the big progressive cities, lifestyle pysch meds seem to get people tripped up pretty regularly. Every so often we get posters on here who "like just totally can't believe" that the FAA takes seriously whatever diagnosis was used to get insurance to pay for the happy pills.
 
James331 said:
Money wise, figure about 120k+ for the plane, call around for hangars, check with air power insurance form those prices, figure 60hrs for your PPL, little under that for your IFR, $50-65hr for a CFI, fuel burn at 15GPH and $4-5.50 a gal for gas.
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Those 60hrs for your IR don't have to be with a CFII. I did mine with the minimum required (12 hours). My IR cost me around $3k all in.
 
I just patiently wait as people suggest their planes that fit peoples mission. Finally, one in my wheel house.

You need a 310! :)
 
It's a dream and people don't usually bother to cost-justify their dreams. Some want a big house, some want a closet full of the latest fashions or shoes, some want the latest gadgets, some want fancy new cars, some want sailboats.

If you want airplanes, buy training and airplanes. If someone tells you you're wasting money, point at their golf bag.
 
mtuomi said:
Those 60hrs for your IR don't have to be with a CFII. I did mine with the minimum required (12 hours). My IR cost me around $3k all in.
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Just be careful who you shotgun those hood hours with, it could ether be a great let up, or just a hot mess, rules of primacy and all
 
Ryanb said:
You won't regret it, if it's something you're passionate about.

For the Private Certificate + Instrument Rating, I would budget $50,000 (+-). I don't know the rates in the Chicago area, although I'm sure they're on the higher side.
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50k?? I got my PPL and IFR tickets for about 18k.
 
Here is the dirty truth, you are gonna spend @ 10K to get your private assuming you are average. At that point you could be totally hooked and dive in head first and nothing will stop you. On the other hand, you may be like 90% of people who get their private and quit flying altogether within 2 years and 100 hours. If it has been a dream, invest the 10K and find out.
 
OkieFlyer said:
Congratulations. I know you guys don't get to say that often. :happydance:
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Only to people that need/want to go up to 1000+ miles with no fuel stops, at 180+ knots, carrying 4-6 people (not just seats) with the safety and security of 2 engines and systems. ;)

That all said, I also wish I had a cub or 180/182 for my round town grass strip flying.
 
Radar Contact said:
Only to people that need/want to go up to 1000+ miles with no fuel stops, at 180+ knots, carrying 4-6 people (not just seats) with the safety and security of 2 engines and systems. ;)

That all said, I also wish I had a cub or 180/182 for my round town grass strip flying.
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I really want to get a 185 for that.

Buddy of mine has a 310; it's an impressive machine. But yeah, these big twins don't do short/soft very well. :)
 
Well I guess we haven't impressed our OP.
 
Ryanb said:
I did put "(+-)" so in that ballpark. I consider 15k-20k for a PPL and 15k-20k for IR, plus their cross country and various hours in-between. Again, I don't know the going figures in that area, but considering Chicago is a high money area like LA, it's not too far of a stretch to assume. 40k-45k might be a closer number.
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I think this is high. I would estimate 7.5k to 10k each. Total for PP + IR would be 15-20k. Could it be higher? Yes, of course. It could take an unusually long time if you just don't get it. But I think much beyond that, particularly in the 50k region would be the extreme outlier.
 
starglider said:
I really want to get a 185 for that.

Buddy of mine has a 310; it's an impressive machine. But yeah, these big twins don't do short/soft very well. :)
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A good 185 on 8.5 wheels will give ya 150kts and land anywhere
 
Nearly identical situation for me. I was 36, living in NYC with our first kiddo still in her crib. Always wanted to do it.

It's expensive but you know that. Plan $8-10k for your PPL another $6-8k for your instrument. My wife wasn't totally on board but it was a dream and life is indeed short. I've found that flying in your late 30's in a big city with a couple of kiddos is tricky in terms of time and money so I really value my time in the air. (I also invested in a nice flight simulator) Sacrifices will need to be made and it's up to you and yours if you're up for the sacrifice. That said, the payoff is worth it in so many ways. I wouldn't change a thing except maybe I should have done it when I was younger, i.e., pre-kiddo.
 
I have two teens, and IIRC, they were about 8 before we could make a long car trip without having to stop every two hours for a bio break. I think he would be disappointed if he were planning on flying one of those 750 nm legs nonstop.

As an aside, Would an A36 Bonanza be able to fly one of his 750 nm legs nonstop? Maybe yes eastbound, but not likely westbound?
 
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