Is experimental the future?

And for the guys like Dave who just don't like experimentals.

Where the hell do you get that crap!! Go back and re-read my posts and report back where I say I "just don't like experimentals". Nowhere do I say such stupid BS.

What I did say was that experimentals are not really the huge cost savings over certified planes when you really compare apples to apples and look at it critically. I did point out that you can save money by owning an experimental, just not as much as some would have you believe. I also pointed out that the E/AB category does bring a whole variety of different aircraft to the market. If pointing out realities and simple observations mean I "just don't like experimentals" I guess I didn't get big supersized 40oz Cool Aid bottles you must have.
 
Where the hell do you get that crap!! Go back and re-read my posts and report back where I say I "just don't like experimentals". Nowhere do I say such stupid BS.

What I did say was that experimentals are not really the huge cost savings over certified planes when you really compare apples to apples and look at it critically. I did point out that you can save money by owning an experimental, just not as much as some would have you believe. I also pointed out that the E/AB category does bring a whole variety of different aircraft to the market. If pointing out realities and simple observations mean I "just don't like experimentals" I guess I didn't get big supersized 40oz Cool Aid bottles you must have.

Take a deep breath there wild man. No need for the nastygrams.....:nono:
 
Performance per dollar or gph or lb MTOW, or frankly any measure you choose is simply no contest.

Except safety. All engineering is a trade off. Experimentals trade safety for ease of construction, low cost and performance. An excellent trade as long as everything goes according to plan.

Ever wonder why certification takes so long, costs so much and is generally so hard to achieve? Part of it is likely government bureaucracy and inefficiency, but much of it has to do with lots of flight testing and destructive testing to prove that the airplane will recover from any unusual attitude, not just in the hands of a skilled test pilot, but the hands of an average idiot pilot.

They are tested to show that they can be flown beyond their normal flight envelope and back without disaster. They must show they can survive an off field landing and give the occupants a real chance to walk away. Electrical, exhaust, hydraulics and fuel have to be proven as best as possible that they will not fail and cause a crisis.

With the certified plane, there is actually a standard and it's pretty high. Possibly too high, but that's another discussion.

Experimentals are not held to any standard and so, that's why they're experimentals and you are the test pilot. The company that sells you the kit, or plans will tell you it has been tested A-OK by their test pilots and fellow pilots will tell you that they have flown their plane for years with no problems, but that is not a standard.

Choose your experimental wisely. They are not all alike. This is partly why the Vans series of aircraft have been so incredibly popular. It is a type that has proven over time with thousands of real world test pilots that the type doesn't really have any bad habits, or nasty gotchas. Lancair, not so much.

The folks at Cirrus, Lancair/Columbia and Liberty found out the hard way how hard it is to meet the Federal safety standards for certified planes. In all those cases, the finished saleable product had little in common with their kit beginnings. A certified airplane, pretty much has to be designed from the ground up to be that.

I flew an Epic LT from WY to OR a few years ago consulting for a client, we had 5 adults, bags, full fuel, broke ground in a little over 1000 feet, and climbed straight to FL230 then hauled ass at almost 350 KTS. No comparison.
This is exactly the type of airplane that very well could really put a damper on the whole kit/home build industry. There was a time before E/AB and working with the EAA they created the category for the purpose of allowing ordinary people to educate themselves about aircraft construction, design and maintenance. It was never intended to be a means to skirt certification.

With more and more sophisticated designs with higher speeds and passenger capacity and the growing roster of professional builders there are raised eyebrows. As you said, this isn't the Stitts Playboy the feds had envisioned people building anymore. So speaking of the future, remember, the government giveth and the government can taketh away.

This post is by EAA member 683738 since 2001. I like experimental airplanes. I also like critical analysis and independent thinking. The world is not a simple place with simple answers.
 
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Except safety. All engineering is a trade off. Experimentals trade safety for ease of construction, low cost and performance. An excellent trade as long as everything goes according to plan.

Ever wonder why certification takes so long, costs so much and is generally so hard to achieve? Part of it is likely government bureaucracy and inefficiency, but much of it has to do with lots of flight testing and destructive testing to prove that the airplane will recover from any unusual attitude, not just in the hands of a skilled test pilot, but the hands of an average idiot pilot.

They are tested to show that they can be flown beyond their normal flight envelope and back without disaster. They must show they can survive an off field landing and give the occupants a real chance to walk away. Electrical, exhaust, hydraulics and fuel have to be proven as best as possible that they will not fail and cause a crisis.

With the certified plane, there is actually a standard and it's pretty high. Possibly too high, but that's another discussion.

Experimentals are not held to any standard and so, that's why they're experimentals and you are the test pilot. The company that sells you the kit, or plans will tell you it has been tested A-OK by their test pilots and fellow pilots will tell you that they have flown their plane for years with no problems, but that is not a standard.

Choose your experimental wisely. They are not all alike. This is partly why the Vans series of aircraft have been so incredibly popular. It is a type that has proven over time with thousands of real world test pilots that the type doesn't really have any bad habits, or nasty gotchas. Lancair, not so much.

The folks at Cirrus, Lancair/Columbia and Liberty found out the hard way how hard it is to meet the Federal safety standards for certified planes. In all those cases, the finished saleable product had little in common with their kit beginnings. A certified airplane, pretty much has to be designed from the ground up to be that.

This is exactly the type of airplane that very well could really put a damper on the whole kit/home build industry. There was a time before E/AB and working with the EAA they created the category for the purpose of allowing ordinary people to educate themselves about aircraft construction, design and maintenance. It was never intended to be a means to skirt certification.

With more and more sophisticated designs with higher speeds and passenger capacity and the growing roster of professional builders there are raised eyebrows. As you said, this isn't the Stitts Playboy the feds had envisioned people building anymore. So speaking of the future, remember, the government giveth and the government can taketh away.

This post is by EAA member 683738 since 2001. I like experimental airplanes. I also like critical analysis and independent thinking. The world is not a simple place with simple answers.
I make my living as a Reliability, Safety and Maintainability Engineer/Engineering Manager and Consultant, in Aerospace (Part 23, Part 25, and Experimental in the US and abroad) - I totally understand the trade-offs and what it takes to certify aircraft - and I stand behind what I said, based on 20 years of experience in industry, and 25 years in EAA/AOPA, with flight experience in 33 different make/model aircraft including a large number of experimentals over the past 20+ years.

'Gimp
 
The future is looking pretty good to me right now.

Just passed 400 hours in my '10 while island hopping the Bahamas. By chance we met a flight of 8 or so light GA fliers doing the rounds. We all seemed to be doing the same things but we had the only experimental in sight. I think we were having more fun but it was a distinction without a difference... except perhaps for the Diamond Twin Star.

It's pretty damn good in the Bahamas.
 
Except safety. All engineering is a trade off. Experimentals trade safety for ease of construction, low cost and performance. An excellent trade as long as everything goes according to plan.

Ever wonder why certification takes so long, costs so much and is generally so hard to achieve? Part of it is likely government bureaucracy and inefficiency, but much of it has to do with lots of flight testing and destructive testing to prove that the airplane will recover from any unusual attitude, not just in the hands of a skilled test pilot, but the hands of an average idiot pilot.

They are tested to show that they can be flown beyond their normal flight envelope and back without disaster. They must show they can survive an off field landing and give the occupants a real chance to walk away. Electrical, exhaust, hydraulics and fuel have to be proven as best as possible that they will not fail and cause a crisis.

With the certified plane, there is actually a standard and it's pretty high. Possibly too high, but that's another discussion.

.

Hmmmmmm...

Care to explain the 787 battery fiasco....:idea:
 
Hmmmmmm...

Care to explain the 787 battery fiasco....:idea:

Vary easy, " Poor Design" by a computer that under estimated the heat produced by a new battery type.
 
The future is looking pretty good to me right now.

Just passed 400 hours in my '10 while island hopping the Bahamas. By chance we met a flight of 8 or so light GA fliers doing the rounds. We all seemed to be doing the same things but we had the only experimental in sight. I think we were having more fun but it was a distinction without a difference... except perhaps for the Diamond Twin Star.

It's pretty damn good in the Bahamas.

..except the landing/processing/departure/passenger/whatever-else fees....:rolleyes2:
 
..except the landing/processing/departure/passenger/whatever-else fees....:rolleyes2:
OT: $50 in, $50 out ($25/person). No problem and well administered. Five landings at 4 different airports with no other charges or problems. Throwing around tips for baggage handling and such is insulting.

It's clear that Bahama wants you there, the runways tend to be long and wide, and the laid back customs people are on duty as described. However, tiedowns are crude or non-existent.

Only problem we had on entire trip was a flat tire with the fine people at Pompano Beach. Whatever construction they are doing on the runways and ramp needs to get completed sooner rather than later.
 
Gimp-

Just so the record is straight and I'm not getting this all wrong, you said-

Performance per dollar or gph or lb MTOW, or frankly any measure you choose is simply no contest.

By this I interpret you mean that experimental aircraft are superior to certified aircraft by any metric one might choose. Correct? Then I wrote-

Except safety.

By this I contend that certified airplanes are as a whole safer than experimental aircraft taken as a whole. To that you responded-

I totally understand the trade-offs and what it takes to certify aircraft - and I stand behind what I said, based on 20 years of experience in industry, and 25 years in EAA/AOPA, with flight experience in 33 different make/model aircraft including a large number of experimentals over the past 20+ years.

I take this to mean that you view experimental aircraft taken as a whole, safer than certified aircraft taken as a whole. Is this correct, or have I got it wrong?
 
Gimp-

Just so the record is straight and I'm not getting this all wrong, you said-



By this I interpret you mean that experimental aircraft are superior to certified aircraft by any metric one might choose. Correct? Then I wrote-



By this I contend that certified airplanes are as a whole safer than experimental aircraft taken as a whole. To that you responded-



I take this to mean that you view experimental aircraft taken as a whole, safer than certified aircraft taken as a whole. Is this correct, or have I got it wrong?

Wrong - as usual....:mad2:
 
Gimp-

Just so the record is straight and I'm not getting this all wrong, you said-



By this I interpret you mean that experimental aircraft are superior to certified aircraft by any metric one might choose. Correct? Then I wrote-



By this I contend that certified airplanes are as a whole safer than experimental aircraft taken as a whole. To that you responded-



I take this to mean that you view experimental aircraft taken as a whole, safer than certified aircraft taken as a whole. Is this correct, or have I got it wrong?
I would say you may have missed my summation from my first post and are going a tad too literal.

Safety continues to improve, there are literally only a handful of EXP designs I wouldn't touch. Experimentals today are not your grandaddy's Stits Playboys.

I figured I was identifying that safety is not equivalent with that statement, and the rest of my original post focused on performance.

'Gimp
 
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I would say you may have missed my summation from my first post and are going a tad too literal.



I figured I was identifying that safety is not equivalent with that statement, and the rest of my original post focused on performance.

'Gimp

OK. I am sorry for being too literal. One never knows on these pilot forums. There are so many pedants and literalistic posters that I get sucked in too.

It sounds like we are in agreement. The Experimental category offers performance increases and variable cost savings, but safety is the trade off.
 
OK. I am sorry for being too literal. One never knows on these pilot forums. There are so many pedants and literalistic posters that I get sucked in too.

It sounds like we are in agreement. The Experimental category offers performance increases and variable cost savings, but safety is the trade off.
No worries, easy to get caught up in getting caught up.

I love most of the Experimentals, they are innovative, most are fun to fly, and they offer tremendous performance.

The safety aspect is one I believe all of the pilots/builders I have had the good fortune to meet and fly with over the last 20 or so years fully considered during their decision making process, and I can't think of one who was not happy with the outcome.

I believe anyone who has the interest in them should fully evaluate the design or designs that catch their interest, and if they decide to go for it, go for it whole hog.

As a Safety professional I know that risk can never be fully eliminated in any situation, the key is to determine your personal level of acceptable risk, and then have as much fun as possible in whatever window that allows.

'Gimp
 
OK. I am sorry for being too literal. One never knows on these pilot forums. There are so many pedants and literalistic posters that I get sucked in too.

It sounds like we are in agreement. The Experimental category offers performance increases and variable cost savings, but safety is the trade off.

I have to disagree.

I think experimentals airplanes are as structurally safe as certifieds. The number of inflight break ups are pretty small. Experimental for the most part are built just fine.

One problem comes in with the limitation the FFA had on training. For the longest time and until recently you could not train with a CFI in an experimental. The best you could do was to talk your buddy with the same plane to let you fly from the right seat. This lack of training was directly linked to many first flight accidents and accidents where someone coming from a 150 buys a Lancair and kills themselves. That has changed, but there is still a mind set amoung builders about flying their plane for the first time with little or no training. Cirrus requires training before they will sell you a plane! There is where the safety record could be equal to or better than certifieds. The safety record is improving, with no changes to the airframes.

I'm not trying to start an argument, but your assertion that experimentals are some how inherently structurally deficient is simple not true.
 
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Well... a LOT of experimentals are safe, sound and probably as safe as most certified planes. There are some that, based on their design and/or known flight characteristics, I wouldn't fly, and a few I wouldn't feel safe sitting in on the ground.

"Experimental" covers so much ground.
 
Small Airports depend on fuel sales, maintenance and other forms of income that experimental aircraft owners use very little of. Small airports are up against lots of problems that threaten their very existence. If the future of GA is experimental then the future of GA is bleak.

If this is the nail in the coffin for small airports, don't blame the growth in the experimental market share. Blame the archaic regulations and local laws which hold small airports hostage to skimming the sales of stuff bought only by pilots of certificated aircraft. Part of the problem also lies with airport-based businesses in denial over the evolution of GA.

I recently looked into the local laws covering Salt Lake International and its two Class E relievers. In order to sell unleaded fuel, you're required to be an FBO with a flight school, sell 100LL and JetA, provide a minimum staff of three 24/7, public bathrooms and phone, and have at least an air-stair and other facilities adequate to clean and service commercial airliners. You're also required to be an inventoried dealer for a manufacturer or maintain a certain minimum inventory level of used aircraft.

This is all clearly based on a 1960s snapshot, with a Cessna Pilot Center or Piper dealer on every corner. The driving market analysis clearly has not been revisited in decades.

It's no big mystery why the growth in GA hangars and activity is not at these three airports. By contrast, a private strip south of the metro area has a tank for ethanol-free unleaded mogas and a Rans dealer and build center.

I'm on the board of a small organization that puts together an annual meet for experimentals. We asked the major FBO on the airport if they'd consider bringing in a mogas truck for the week of our event. The answer was, "never."

Markets change over time. If anything, the aviation market has changed more gradually than most. I got primary instruction in 2002, in a Champ built in 1946. Airports and businesses which can't keep up with even the lethargic pace of change in the GA market deservedly have one foot in the grave.
 
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I think experimentals airplanes are as structurally safe as certifieds. The number of inflight break ups are pretty small. Experimental for the most part are built just fine.

I guess we'll never know for sure because experimentals aren't tested to part 23, or any other federal certification standards. In flight break ups are only one thing that can cause a pilot to come to grief. Most of what certified testing is for is not so much to see how strong something is per say, but rather, what happens when the pilot totally screws up. The whole basis of certification is a government attempt to save a crappy pilot from themselves.

As long as a pilot stays on top of everything and flies the numbers 100%, they can safely fly the most dangerous plane in the world. (and some do! :eek:) The point is to try to save the wife, kids and people on the ground from the crappiest pilot in the world. It's about all the ways you can screw up and how well the screw ups can it be salvaged, or what's the best chance of survival.

The Vans RV series is probably one of, or possibly the safest experimental around. That's because the Vans company is safety conscious and created designs with safety in mind, as well as the aircraft have collectively flown a bazillion hours. On the other hand, ask any Vans rep at a show ( I have more than once) what the prospect of one of Vans current designs passing

Part 23 certification and the first immediate response is a snort/chuckle. They will tell you first how Vans has no interest in going certified, but when further questioned, they will tell you that they know the planes would not pass, or even come close as they are now configured. A complete redesign would be required.

Now does Part 23 make planes totally safe? No, clearly not. Can an experimental/plans built whatever be safely flown? Yes they can. It all come down to how big the safety envelope is and how much a person is willing to accept, or handle. Which brings us to...

One problem comes in with the limitation the FFA had on training. For the longest time and until recently you could not train with a CFI in an experimental. The best you could do was to talk your buddy with the same plane to let you fly from the right seat. This lack of training was directly linked to many first flight accidents and accidents where someone coming from a 150 buys a Lancair and kills themselves. That has changed, but there is still a mind set amoung builders about flying their plane for the first time with little or no training.

And here I agree completely. Type training from professionals in the type of plane you intend to fly is key. Particularly if the type you choose is one of the more dangerous types. In time, given enough lawsuits, the kit companies will get to the place of the certified companies and require inspections and checkouts.

One has to figure that if the future of GA is experimental and most of the planes produced are experimental, then the lawsuits will follow. Either that or public pressure on the government will cause there to be no experimental. It's time for experimental kit makers to start taking Vans lead and start thinking about "How do I save the idiot?" rather than "How fast/high/far/many Gs/much stuff can I make it do?"

I fully expect kit companies to offer free check outs and inspections in the future, followed later by requirements.
 
The faa monthly accident reports are and always have been very interesting to me. Amazing what jams often high time, high rated pilots get themselves into . Running out of fuel is a biggie! A few exp. accidents. Many more are certified. There are also quite a few "I just got my instrument ticket" types who invariably kill themselves and oftentimes passengers also busting mdas or screwing up a go round IFR. Or jump into say a twin that they are not that familiar with, an engine out on take off or landing and it's over quickly. The most popular experimentals seem to me to be pretty well designed and built. ( I always thought the 140 Cherokee, the first ones, were very dangerous underpowered junk.) I would very much like to have a rans courrier but can't afford one.
 
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I guess we'll never know for sure because experimentals aren't tested to part 23, or any other federal certification standards. ........

ANYTHING will kill you..... 10 times more people are killed each year in bathtub accidents then in experimentals..

Do we outlaw taking a bath ??:idea: :nonod:....

Be careful out there guys and gals....;)
 
ANYTHING will kill you..... 10 times more people are killed each year in bathtub accidents then in experimentals..

Do we outlaw taking a bath ??:idea: :nonod:....

Sorry, couldn't resist. Some will recognize this tub... and getting to it might kill you... not necessarily the flight to get to it, but perhaps the walk to get to it might :lol:
IMG_7371-001.JPG
 
Sorry, couldn't resist. Some will recognize this tub... and getting to it might kill you... not necessarily the flight to get to it, but perhaps the walk to get to it might :lol:
IMG_7371-001.JPG


I LOVE Johnson Creek...:yes::).............
 
ANYTHING will kill you..... 10 times more people are killed each year in bathtub accidents then in experimentals..

Do we outlaw taking a bath ??:idea: :nonod:....

a lot of people in the South already have. At least the ones I see in WalMart.
 
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