Is ded rec/pilotage over cities harder for you?

Pi1otguy

Pi1otguy

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Fox McCloud
Might be just me, but the sectional just makes sense and I intuitively know where I am while over the random deserts of CA and the SW. I can do ded rec all day long with other nav aids playing an advisory role. (Not all planes I rent have GPS)

But gosh darn it if the yellow blob of the LA Basin doesn't frustrate me. Am I the only one?
 
Pi1otguy said:
Might be just me, but the sectional just makes sense and I intuitively know where I am while over the random deserts of CA and the SW. I can do ded rec all day long with other nav aids playing an advisory role. (Not all planes I rent have GPS)

But gosh darn it if the yellow blob of the LA Basin doesn't frustrate me. Am I the only one?
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Nope, there’s at least two us and thousands more I’m sure. Don’t think I’d do much Dead Reckoning through the City, but Pilotaging for sure. Besides TAC Charts there’s also Flyway and Helicopter Charts that give a different view that can help.

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Yes, yellow blobs make it hard for me as well for sectional dead Rec / pilotage. I still do that backed up by my GSP/Garmin Pilot. Atlanta is a blob but because I have a GPS & Garmin Pilot and of course know where select big landmarks like baseball or football stadiums are since I live/work in the area, i am good to go. If I were in a city I had never been to....yeah, I would be frustrated...even with a TAC chart most likely.
 
luvflyin said:
Flyway and Helicopter Charts
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That's what I look at. I use pilotage looking for freeways, stadiums and big runways. I also look for mountains, lakes, etc outside of the city to help hold a heading. Never had to use DR.

Finding my way *through* a city isn't usually a problem for me, but finding a small airport in the blob isn't so easy.
 
Shepherd said:
I think I'll fly out there and see what you guys are talking about.
If I leave tomorrow, I can be across Pennsylvania by Halloween, then turn south to avoid gunfire over Chicago, then .....
Memorial Day. I can be there by Memorial Day.
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And all without GPS.....impressive!
 
Navigation may or may not be more difficult, but when you're picking your way around that airspace the penalty for an error can be a lot greater...
 
Depends on whether I know the city or not and how distinctive the landmarks are. NYC, Columbus, San Diego and San Francisco (where I have and currently live) are very familiar for me and a map isn’t even needed. Chicago, LA, New Orleans, Miami, Phoenix, etc are fairly easy because I’ve been there many times but others (eg most cities in TX, Atlanta, Seattle) I’m less familiar with.

But at the end of the day, does it matter, other than as a mental exercise? GPS is so ubiquitous and reliable* these days that you almost have to go out of your way to avoid it and if you’re in a taildragger with no electrical system, that’s part of the charm anyway.

* yes, I know GPS outages can and do happen but it's quite rare and we still have VORs…
 
luvflyin said:
Don’t think I’d do much Dead Reckoning through the City, but Pilotaging for sure.
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DR is kinda implied between visual fixes. Not flying across the Pacific level of DR, but "DR lite".
Dana said:
Navigation may or may not be more difficult, but when you're picking your way around that airspace the penalty for an error can be a lot greater...
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True, but I feel like SoCal airspace is better designed than most. A fair bit of B space is almost snapped to landmarks. I even remember they raised a B space floor a few years back.
 
Pi1otguy said:
I recently got back into flying. Still deciding on my setup or if I'm going to get a tablet.
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Get a cheap Samsung tablet, load free Avare app. Fly wherever you want...

To plan a trip avoiding bravo airspace and getting inexpensive avgas e route, spend $80 a year (VFR) for IFly GPS....
 
+1 on helicopter charts, at least for the NYC area. I don't think it's so much the yellow that's the problem, it's that those areas have a lot going on, so you need a map that's more zoomed in to sort out where things are.
 
RudyP said:
yes, I know GPS outages can and do happen but it's quite rare and we still have VORs…
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Some of us, maybe. I don't. But then I'm the lunatic fringe here.

CharlieD3 said:
Get a cheap Samsung tablet, load free Avare app. Fly wherever you want...
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:yeahthat: Or put Avare on your phone, and get a tablet if/when you feel you need a bigger screen.
 
+2 on the Helicopter Route Charts, I've used them a lot as well...but didn't want some of you FW folks looking at me sideways o_O if I referenced those... :D
 
Pi1otguy said:
Might be just me, but the sectional just makes sense and I intuitively know where I am while over the random deserts of CA and the SW. I can do ded rec all day long with other nav aids playing an advisory role. (Not all planes I rent have GPS)

But gosh darn it if the yellow blob of the LA Basin doesn't frustrate me. Am I the only one?
Click to expand...

Thomas guide is your friend, or any road map or topo map. Along the coast you have the pacific ocean, the 405 and hwy 1. To the north of the yellow blob are mountains and the 210 from Big Bear to Valencia. Look at all the valleys and highways in between, Riverside with lake Mathews and Lake Elsinore, The 405 and 118 with the San Fernando reservoir (and all its black plastic balls). There are hundreds of unique landmarks and easily identifiable roads in the LA basin if you look for them. Shoot me a PM, I'd be happy to share my routes and landmarks with you. Personally I find the LA basin about the easiest place to navigate (and I spend a lot of time in a cub with no electric let alone gps) Its those big stretches of Texas and New Mexico that force me to use a compass and stopwatch to get where I hope to go.

Regards,

Jim
 
I used to piddle around with gliders on weekends NW of Ft Worth. A member of the Texas Soaring Assoc was a frequent visitor. He was based at their glider field SE of Dallas. He had a high performance competition sailplane. He would get a tow and head home after the visit. He had no nav aids on board that I could see. He may have had a battery operated comm and transponder. He said that he pretty much went direct using pilotage.

The Dallas/ Ft Worth yellow blob measures out about 80 NM SE to NW. The two glider fields were about 100 nm apart. GPS was yet to be invented.
 
Boyfalldown said:
Thomas guide is your friend, or any road map or topo map. Along the coast you have the pacific ocean, the 405 and hwy 1. To the north of the yellow blob are mountains and the 210 from Big Bear to Valencia. Look at all the valleys and highways in between, Riverside with lake Mathews and Lake Elsinore, The 405 and 118 with the San Fernando reservoir (and all its black plastic balls). There are hundreds of unique landmarks and easily identifiable roads in the LA basin if you look for them. Shoot me a PM, I'd be happy to share my routes and landmarks with you. Personally I find the LA basin about the easiest place to navigate (and I spend a lot of time in a cub with no electric let alone gps) Its those big stretches of Texas and New Mexico that force me to use a compass and stopwatch to get where I hope to go.

Regards,

Jim
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In a Cub, a compass and an Alarm Clock would probably work just fine:goofy::rofl:

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