Is CAP flying safer than the rest of GA?

[Palmpilot]

As a CAP member - are you required to report anything that occurs in your airplane and your automobiles?

Only if it happened while you were engaging in a CAP activity.

The graphic in post 25 implies CAP pilots are safer than the general population.

You're making an incorrect assumption about its purpose.

I thought I asked a relatively easy question: Are those rates for all members, or for members while operating CAP equipment.

For members while operating any equipment on a CAP activity.

Case in point. I'm in a club... I had an incident in my personal plane.The club can proudly boast no incidents?

Sure, why not? The club might not even know about the accident in your personal plane, and they certainly wouldn't have any control over it.

OR The club can accurately report no incidents in the planes and 1 incident among members?

If the club claimed that was accurate information, that would be a lie, because they would have no way of guaranteeing that they were told about every (or ANY!) accident that a club member had in a non-club airplane.

OR IF a former member had an incident in a non-club plane the club incident history is now 2, while only half the offensive pilots are still involved.

I don't see any reliable way for a club to measure what you appear to be trying to measure.

 

[Kritchlow]

Only if it happened while you were engaging in a CAP activity.



You're making an incorrect assumption about its purpose.



For members while operating any equipment on a CAP activity.



Sure, why not? The club might not even know about the accident in your personal plane, and they certainly wouldn't have any control over it.



If the club claimed that was accurate information, that would be a lie, because they would have no way of guaranteeing that they were told about every (or ANY!) accident that a club member had in a non-club airplane.



I don't see any reliable way for a club to measure what you appear to be trying to measure.

Right.... without taking the time to edit down your post, I agree.

That would be like saying Delta airlines had an incident if a Delta pilot dinged his personal plane on the weekend.

 

[Ravioli]

Only if it happened while you were engaging in a CAP activity.
You're making an incorrect assumption about its purpose.

A few thoughts:
Your thread is titled "Is CAP flying safer than the rest of GA?"
Your proof slide INCLUDES automobile operation But I guess that is the CAP owned equipment stats with no comparison to the general population.

My question was reasonable.

And I never wrote "accident." I wrote "incident."

I'm now able to conclude that there is no way of knowing whether CAP flying is safer than the rest of GA because there is insufficient data.

 

[Palmpilot]

A few thoughts:
Your thread is titled "Is CAP flying safer than the rest of GA?"

Yes, that's the title of the thread, but it's not my thread.

Your proof slide INCLUDES automobile operation

I'm not trying to prove anything. I posted the slide because it contains some data that might help thread participants find the answer to the question in the thread title.

You are correct that it includes some automobile data. What do you infer from that?

My question was reasonable.

I don't see anything unreasonable about your questions. I'm trying to give reasonable answers.

And I never wrote "accident." I wrote "incident." Which only gives me more questions about the proof slide.

What additional questions does it give you? If I am able to answer them, I will.

I'm now able to conclude that there is no way of knowing whether CAP flying is safer than the rest of GA, because what data may exist is not being shared.

You could be right, but there also could be more data on their Web site than what I've found. I didn't have a great deal of time to look for it.

 

[murphey]

A few thoughts:
Your thread is titled "Is CAP flying safer than the rest of GA?"
Your proof slide INCLUDES automobile operation But I guess that is the CAP owned equipment stats with no comparison to the general population.

My question was reasonable.

And I never wrote "accident." I wrote "incident."

I'm now able to conclude that there is no way of knowing whether CAP flying is safer than the rest of GA because there is insufficient data.

Except you never defined "safer than the rest of GA".

 

[Sundancer]

If the numbers were phony, I would expect to see a steady downtrend.

I was probably being too polite - "pure" phony might be caught out too easily; more likely they'd cook the books on definitions, or time periods, or "thresholds". Not saying they did so in this case, but the corporate culture is not one I found admirable or trustworthy. Acts of corruption broke surface often enough that a lot of us wondered what might lie beneath.

Back to the OP's point - no real numbers that can be called "rates" exist for GA, just estimates, guesses.

 

[ktup-flyer]

Well I've only seen Swivel Chair Patrol actually flying a couple times. Hard to have an accident if you don't fly.

 

[Stewartb]

Whan I see or hear CAP flights? I give them
lots of space. What a waste of tax dollars!

 

[Palmpilot]

Well, I guess it was only a matter of time!

 

[Sundancer]

Whan I see or hear CAP flights? I give them
lots of space. What a waste of tax dollars!

Can't argue with you about the tax dollars, having been there and seen it - I will repeat that, in general, CAP pilots are no worse, or better, than the GA population in general. When you hear a pilot mess up, and he has a CAP call sign, it sticks out; when you hear a generic call sign mess up, it's just some guy.

It's an easily identified population, and so easy to stigmatize - like FedEx or UPS trucks, versus unmarked panel trucks - "darned FedEx trucks, always double parking!". I imagine FedEx drivers do it about as often as drivers of generic delivery trucks. . .

 

[wrbix]

......only if they're not doing Touch and Goes...,

 

[MajTbird]

It's impossible to get data from CAP NHQ. They say they have it, they poll their members often--especially pilots. But ask for the raw data and the answer is always, "No." Last time I asked I was told the data would be reviewed by certain people in CAP, including the national commander, but there are no plans to share it with the membership. This after I spent quite a bit of my time filling out their survey. So, as it typical, I am asked to invest my time and energy but I don't get to know any results.

 

[SkyDog58]

 

[Eric Gleason]

I just did some searching and couldn't find hard numbers over time like you would see in the FAA or NTSB accident stats, but CAP does publish the number most years after the stats are compiled. In general, CAP's accident rates are around 1/2 to 2/3 of the GA rate. There are exceptions, of course, and there have been some bad years.

And to clarify in case anyone got lost in the shuffle: CAP aviation accident stats include all CAP crews flying either CAP Corporate-owned or member-owned aircraft on a CAP activity, including missions, training, cadet flights, and transport to/from the activity. They do not include any statistics for anything that happens outside of those activities.

Given the fact that CAP missions generally include a relatively high workload, are often at low altitude, at a high pace, and sometimes under conditions when most VFR activity has ceased, I think the accident rate is pretty stellar.

 

[airdale]

... Given the fact that CAP missions generally include a relatively high workload, are often at low altitude, at a high pace, and sometimes under conditions when most VFR activity has ceased, I think the accident rate is pretty stellar.

I think the rate is good, but you have to remember that most CAP flying is not mission activity at all and even on missions the transits to and from the airplane's base are almost always simple VFR flights. (I speak as an Air Ops Branch Director having certainly released 1000+ flights.)

I tell people that CAP flying is a sort of sheltered workshop. Flights are almost always intra-state. WX planning consists mostly of looking out the window and maybe checking a TAF for the next few hours. Fuel planning mostly consists of making sure you're not out the top of the W&B envelope. On a mission there are multiple nannies watching things. There is very little flying in IMC. And so on.

The CAP risk management process (for each flight) is pretty much a joke that attempts to substitute form-filling for judgment. The one thing that is not a joke, IMO, is the required annual "Form 5" check ride.

So yeah, the accident rate is better but a big part of it is due to the sheltered workshop, with IMO some credit to the Form 5.

 

[Palmpilot]

...The CAP risk management process (for each flight) is pretty much a joke that attempts to substitute form-filling for judgment....

Amen to that.