Is BasicMed in jeopardy of being useless for older pilots?

[Warlock]

Allianz just non renewed my personal policy on a separate aircraft. I have another policy with our LLC name on it...The LLC policy has incurred what has potential of policy limits plus Attorney fees in the last 18 months...will be interesting to see what is available for my Warrior come the end of March...

 

[CharlieD3]

I hope basic med isn't made the scape goat for insurance underwriting.

As the AOPA article stated, more pilots are getting back into the air and the incident rate doesn't appear to be increasing in a correlating manner.

That said, between insurance companies and lawyers a whole lot of flim flam men and women need to make $ to survive.

The increasingly litigious nature of people and corporate entities has made life miserable for many who are not "victims."

OTOH, I have dealt with an insurance company that literally forced me to seek an attorney in order to get what was just compensation (by statute). This ended up costing the insurance company more than if they had simply obeyed the law.

The whole system is buggered up.

Frankly, I'd like to see a "pilot's mutual insurance company" owned by the insureds, covering each other. But, even that can end up screwy...

 

[gacoon]

Renewed a couple weeks ago 73 yo, basicmed, mooney 20j, 8% over year before.

 

[Snowmass]

I suspect the liability coverage is a pretty small portion of the premium on a lot of airplanes.

It may be but I don't care of losing a $60K airplane but the $100K/seat liability is a sick joke. That's an ingrown toenail. Even $10,000,000 could be too little so NO PAX EVER unless in my will.

 

[Clip4]

I am surprised it has taken the insurance companies this long to stop insuring basic med. Just because AOPA and EAA thought this was a great idea to keep an aging pilot population flying didn’t mean the insurance folks had to go along with it.

 

[schmookeeg]

I just read that in this morning's ePilot and am concerned. If the premium increase is too painful, I'll sell my airplane and quit flying. I'm 77, fly an LSA under BasicMed, and in 56 years as a pilot have never been involved in any accident, incident, or deviation, and believe the increase is discriminatory.

Isn't 'discrimination' exactly what insurance underwriting is?

 

[Weekend Warrior]

I have a class iii, and this year my insurance went down, even though I upped my hull coverage to $75k from $60k. If this is the result of the basic med discrimination, I'm all for it!
(I joke, as I think the price difference was from my broker shopping underwriters)

 

[Stan Cooper]

Isn't 'discrimination' exactly what insurance underwriting is?

Maybe I'm naïve, but I thought aviation insurance underwriting was based on risk analysis. I don't think my premiums should be increased because an insured satellite failed to make it into orbit and there was a big payout, or a whole town burned down because a bankrupt utility failed to properly maintain its infrastructure.

A premium increase would be justified if I had made any claims for an accident resulting from poor maintenance or my negligence as a pilot, but I haven't made any claims for anything.

 

[James331]

Thankfully in aviation we don’t NEED insurance.

Vote with your wallet.

If they see enough people just don’t buy their product anymore they’ll change their tune

 

[Mooney Fan]

We meed to see some more data relative to the rates for those with III Class Medicals and those with Basic Med. I would gladly pay an AME $100 every 2 years for a 3rd class if it will save me from having my rates doubled under Basic Med. Need to run a CBA on this lol..

 

[chemgeek]

I am surprised it has taken the insurance companies this long to stop insuring basic med. Just because AOPA and EAA thought this was a great idea to keep an aging pilot population flying didn’t mean the insurance folks had to go along with it.

Based on what data showing that Basic Med or other medically self-certified pilot classes have higher claims rates for similar demographics? Anectodes and beliefs are not data.

 

[Pilawt]

Maybe I'm naïve, but I thought aviation insurance underwriting was based on risk analysis. I don't think my premiums should be increased because an insured satellite failed to make it into orbit and there was a big payout, or a whole town burned down because a bankrupt utility failed to properly maintain its infrastructure.

A premium increase would be justified if I had made any claims for an accident resulting from poor maintenance or my negligence as a pilot, but I haven't made any claims for anything.

Premiums - and claims practices - can also be affected by outside factors such as the performance of the insurers' investments in real estate and the stock market.

 

[wsuffa]

Some states require insurance (liability) so going bare may not be an option depending on where you live.

In the end, insurance can be a tough master than the FAA, and may well make or break an industry/hobby. Part of the reason that some of the FAA rules exist is to make planes/Pilots insurable.

The increases & restrictions are not limited to aviation. My car insurer recently moved to 6 month policies from annual policies and has made it clear they won't be issuing any more annual policies. That's a change form 70+ years of issuing annual policies. It increases everyone's workload and pushes costs up. I'm waiting to see how much more expensive it will be.

 

[Clip4]

Based on what data showing that Basic Med or other medically self-certified pilot classes have higher claims rates for similar demographics? Anectodes and beliefs are not data.

Does an insurance company need data not to insure you? They are private companies who may choose who they insure and who they don’t. A person over 40 taking a more comprehensive physical every 2 years vs a less comprehensive physical every 4. You don’t need data for that.

 

[atbroome]

In an industry driven by actuaries & hard data you are supposed to. I’m surprised you would be on the side of guesses and feelings vs hard data.

Does an insurance company need data not to insure you? They are private companies who may choose who they insure and who they don’t. A person over 40 taking a more comprehensive physical every 2 years vs a less comprehensive physical every 4. You don’t need data for that.

 

[Mooney Fan]

Does an insurance company need data not to insure you? They are private companies who may choose who they insure and who they don’t. A person over 40 taking a more comprehensive physical every 2 years vs a less comprehensive physical every 4. You don’t need data for that.

I disagree in that the 3rd Class Medical is more comprehensive than the one my physician conducts yearly. Not even close. But there may be a percentage of pilots who will go to a Dr every 4 years. I think most taking benefit of BM are older, and as such, have a physical completed yearly

 

[Palmpilot]

Does an insurance company need data not to insure you? They are private companies who may choose who they insure and who they don’t. A person over 40 taking a more comprehensive physical every 2 years vs a less comprehensive physical every 4. You don’t need data for that.

Insurance companies need data if they want to make money.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Insurance companies are their own worst enemies. I know of an older champ that ground looped. They totaled it and paid him the 3x what its worth because that’s what he had it insured for. Another cost benefit analysis fAiL

If he had it over insured then he was paying more premium. I expect the insurance company had this factored in. I don’t find myself shedding any tears for them.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

I know that having insurance is the preferred way to do it but how important is insurance anyway? If I have a heart attack or stroke out and crash and die what does it matter? My estate is out some money but so what.

I guess it depends on what you hit ...

 

[dans2992]

Put that in a letter to your heirs and sign it, "love, Dad".

If the hull value is a very small % of the total estate, they’re not going to care.

 

[wsuffa]

The Kobe crash is not going to help insurance rates one bit.

 

[Pugs]

The Kobe crash is not going to help insurance rates one bit.

I suspect the actuarial tables are a little more granular than instrument rated dual engined helicopters affecting my Single engine prop rates. We crash quite enough SEP to affect my rates.

 

[chemgeek]

Does an insurance company need data not to insure you? They are private companies who may choose who they insure and who they don’t. A person over 40 taking a more comprehensive physical every 2 years vs a less comprehensive physical every 4. You don’t need data for that.

The 3rd class "physical" is hardly comprehensive. Vitals, urine dip test, and maybe the color vision test for the umpteenth time, like color blindness is an acquired disease. For many pilots, these are astonishingly pro forma.

My annual physical exam includes much, much more, and is conducted by a physician who is familiar with my recent and long term health history. I just bring the BasicMed forms to one of those annual health exams/reviews. As a result, my health insurance basically pays for my medical certification. And Basic Med flyers also have to take a useful aeromedical quiz and refresher every two years.

 

[Clip4]

The 3rd class "physical" is hardly comprehensive. Vitals, urine dip test, and maybe the color vision test for the umpteenth time, like color blindness is an acquired disease. For many pilots, these are astonishingly pro forma.

My annual physical exam includes much, much more, and is conducted by a physician who is familiar with my recent and long term health history. I just bring the BasicMed forms to one of those annual health exams/reviews. As a result, my health insurance basically pays for my medical certification. And Basic Med flyers also have to take a useful aeromedical quiz and refresher every two years.

Basic Med allows a pilot to circumvent the evaluation of many medical conditions by a trained aero medical physician

 

[Ravioli]

Basic Med allows a pilot to circumvent the evaluation of many medical conditions by a trained aero medical physician

Please provide the list of "medical conditions" that can be circumvented by Basic Med.

 

[C-1 PILOT]

I am surprised it has taken the insurance companies this long to stop insuring basic med. Just because AOPA and EAA thought this was a great idea to keep an aging pilot population flying didn’t mean the insurance folks had to go along with it.

Who said insurance companies stopped insuring pilots with Basic Med?

 

[dans2992]

Rules for private/commercial pilots should be the same as standard/CDL drivers’ licenses.

The risk is the same (or even higher) in vehicles, but rules aren’t as strict as flying because many more people drive than fly, therefore pushback would be stronger.

 

[donjohnston]

Thankfully in aviation we don’t NEED insurance.

Maybe for some.

If the aircraft is financed, the bank will most likely require insurance.

So yeah, some people NEED insurance.

 

[DFH65]

Thankfully in aviation we don’t NEED insurance.

Vote with your wallet.

If they see enough people just don’t buy their product anymore they’ll change their tune

You are talking like a free man cut that crap out.

My 172 insurance is reasonable enough considering my co-owner is still a student pilot. Double it and I may just vote with my feet. Not going back to a class three without a compelling reason. Ain't nobody got time for that.

I sent an email off to my broker to ask what he is hearing.

 

[Dana]

Thankfully in aviation we don’t NEED insurance.

Vote with your wallet.

If they see enough people just don’t buy their product anymore they’ll change their tune

Maybe you don't need insurance, but I do. I don't want to impoverish my family if a gust of wind pushes me into somebody's Learjet... and even if I don't hit anything expensive, if I lost my plane and wasn't insured, I wouldn't be able to afford another one for a long while.

 

[Half Fast]

Please provide the list of "medical conditions" that can be circumvented by Basic Med.

I agree that, in general terms, a basic med exam is at least as good as a class 3 exam, and even better if conducted by your regular physician who is more familiar with your health, but as an example to address your question:

Kidney stones are not an item requiring an SI prior to Basic Med, but under a class 3 the FAA may require an SI involving extensive and regular tests. Basic Med circumvents this evaluation by a medical examiner.

I had a stone shortly after getting Basic Med, and the subsequent procedure found 3 stones which were treated. Basic Med does not require an AME or OKC to look at that condition. Furthermore, since the Basic Med exam is on a 4 year cycle but the form only requires a 3 year look-back on physician visits, my stone and procedure don't even have to be reported to my Basic Med physician at my next exam.

 

[James331]

Maybe you don't need insurance, but I do. I don't want to impoverish my family if a gust of wind pushes me into somebody's Learjet... and even if I don't hit anything expensive, if I lost my plane and wasn't insured, I wouldn't be able to afford another one for a long while.

That’s the beauty of freedom, you are free to purchase that product or not, your call.

My concern is what if the more likely happens and NOTHING happens?!

Depends on the price of insurance and your risk, some things I insure, some things I don’t. End of the day, despite lots of marketing, it’s still just a product.

 

[Ravioli]

I agree that, in general terms, a basic med exam is at least as good as a class 3 exam, and even better if conducted by your regular physician who is more familiar with your health, but as an example to address your question:

Kidney stones are not an item requiring an SI prior to Basic Med, but under a class 3 the FAA may require an SI involving extensive and regular tests. Basic Med circumvents this evaluation by a medical examiner.

I had a stone shortly after getting Basic Med, and the subsequent procedure found 3 stones which were treated. Basic Med does not require an AME or OKC to look at that condition. Furthermore, since the Basic Med exam is on a 4 year cycle but the form only requires a 3 year look-back on physician visits, my stone and procedure don't even have to be reported to my Basic Med physician at my next exam.

What's your point? Does your condition impact your ability to self certify fitness for flight?

If you self ground nothing is circumvented. And the intention of the rule is not circumvention.

 

[Clip4]

Who said insurance companies stopped insuring pilots with Basic Med?

AOPA: We are hearing that some underwriters are unwilling to accept BasicMed for older pilots and that some are even requiring pilots take a third class medical exam every year. What are you hearing?

 

[Clip4]

Please provide the list of "medical conditions" that can be circumvented by Basic Med.

All except

• Angina pectoris.
• Bipolar disease.
• Cardiac valve replacement.
• Coronary heart disease that has been treated or, if untreated, that has been symptomatic or clinically significant.
• Diabetes mellitus requiring hypoglycemic medications.
• Disturbance of consciousness without satisfactory explanation of cause.
• Epilepsy.

 

[Todd82]

Hold on though. Light sport was basically the same thing for what a decade now or more? Plenty of old timers flying new $150k LSA's. Are they getting reasonably insured and basic med guys in a $50k 40 year old plane aren't?

 

[Warmi]

Basic Med allows a pilot to circumvent the evaluation of many medical conditions by a trained aero medical physician

So what ... so are 200 000 000 Americans who drive cars non commercially and they do so without any input from “trained auto medical physicians” , not to mention all these loose cannons with their boats enjoying their toys without any help from” trained hydro medical physicians” ....blah blah

 

[Jumpmaster]

I am 64, hold a 3rd Class Medical and my rates went up about 6% for the second year in a row for a Tiger. I could self-insure the hull but not the liability since my umbrella excludes aviation. Like some posters, I don’t fly passengers that are not close family members so my risk is really someone on the ground which I view as not zero (hence liability insurance) but close thereto. If you fly in heavily populated areas, my guess is that would be a significant concern.

 

[Half Fast]

What's your point? Does your condition impact your ability to self certify fitness for flight?

If you self ground nothing is circumvented. And the intention of the rule is not circumvention.

No impact, no need to self-ground. Discussed with my physician, no concerns.

And I never said the intent was circumvention. But you asked where circumvention of class 3 rules could occur, so I provided an example.

 

[C-1 PILOT]

Speaking of medicals, I’ve had many in my flying years. One thing I’ll say, is the exam given by ones private physician is hands down more through than the one an AME gives you. Unless of course you are seeinga physician such as Dr Bruce and seeking a SPecial issuance.

im not saying it’s the AME, it’s just the checklist, IMO covers more that what my

AOPA: We are hearing that some underwriters are unwilling to accept BasicMed for older pilots and that some are even requiring pilots take a third class medical exam every year. What are you hearing?

Yes, I read that, but without proof, it’s hearsay IMO. I’m due for renewal this April and will see where this goes then. I expect a slight increase, but doubt it will due to BM.

I will say, if Canada doesn’t come on board, honoring basic med, I’ll probably go and get a 3rd class. I fly to MI 2-3 times a year, overflying Canada would shave almost 2 hrs off my trip.