Is a Tail Wheel Endorsement a Basic Flight Review?

Geico266

Geico266

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
19,136
Location
Husker Nation, NE
Display Name
Display name:
Geico
The subject came up today at our local "hanger flying" gab session. My BFR is due in March and I mentioned it to the two CFI's in the group. One guy remembered I just got my TW endorsement last spring and he thought that would count as a BFR. The other CFI said; "only if the CFI doing the TW endorsement signs it off.

What say you?
 
Last edited:
It is only a flight review if the CFI does a flight review during the endorsement and signs it as being a flight review. If you don't have the required language for a flight review in your logbook--you'll be needing one.
 
jesse said:
It is only a flight review if the CFI does a flight review during the endorsement and signs it as being a flight review. If you don't have the required language for a flight review in your logbook--you'll be needing one.
Click to expand...


Could I just add the wording? :nono::nono::nono:
 
Geico266 said:
Could I just add the wording? :nono::nono::nono:
Click to expand...

you shouldnt, but i dont see why your instructor couldnt, as long as he is satisfied that you completed and documented the requirements of the flight review when you did your T/W endorsement, and he dates the flight review accordingly
 
There are certain required elements of the ground training portion of a flight review which would not be part of a typical TW endorsement, particularly the "review of the current general operating and flight rules of part 91 of this chapter." This must be documented as ground training IAW 61.51, including specific language describing the topics covered in the ground training. In addition, there is a minimum time of one hour each of flight/ground training for the flight review. It would be pretty unusual to find anyone who can qualify for a TW endorsement in less than an hour of flight time, but it's possible. OTOH, there is no minimum ground time for that TW endorsement, and I can imagine that training taking less than an hour.

Therefore, an entry in a trainee's log showing only a 61.31(i) TW endorsement signed by a CFI does not qualify as a flight review under 61.56.
 
tonycondon said:
you shouldnt, but i dont see why your instructor couldnt, as long as he is satisfied that you completed and documented the requirements of the flight review when you did your T/W endorsement, and he dates the flight review accordingly
Click to expand...
The instructor would also have to add an entry for the ground training specified in 61.56(a)(1). I doubt that could be done legally on a "backdated" basis unless the instructor doing the TW endorsement covered those areas, which would not be part of a typical TW endorsement training syllabus.
 
Ron Levy said:
The instructor would also have to add an entry for the ground training specified in 61.56(a)(1). I doubt that could be done legally on a "backdated" basis unless the instructor doing the TW endorsement covered those areas, which would not be part of a typical TW endorsement training syllabus.
Click to expand...

i agree, which is why i said the instructor would have to be satisfied that the training was done to begin with, and that it was documented.
 
Ron Levy said:
The instructor would also have to add an entry for the ground training specified in 61.56(a)(1). I doubt that could be done legally on a "backdated" basis unless the instructor doing the TW endorsement covered those areas, which would not be part of a typical TW endorsement training syllabus.
Click to expand...

This may be a stupid question, but could he go back to the instructor, get the required ground training and receive the endorsement based on that flight?
 
Hmm. Today's date. Flight a year ago. I can see at least ONE issue with that. When would the next flight review be due?

It MAY be legal to do so, (I doubt it.) but like many other things in aviation, it isn't really that wise.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Hmm. Today's date. Flight a year ago. I can see at least ONE issue with that. When would the next flight review be due?

It MAY be legal to do so, (I doubt it.) but like many other things in aviation, it isn't really that wise.
Click to expand...

Ahhh, I missed the "last spring" part on the first read through. NM.
 
Teller1900 said:
Ahhh, I missed the "last spring" part on the first read through. NM.
Click to expand...


It was done in the same month as my BFR is due, March. I'll just get a BFR and have done with it. It was an interesting question anyway.

Thanks to all for your comments.
 
Last edited:
Geico266 said:
It was done in the same month as my BFR is due, March. I'll just get a BFR and have done with it. It waws an interesting question anyway.

Thanks to all for your comments.
Click to expand...

I think it's still an interesting question, and sparks another. How long after a training event can an endorsement be given, or is there any guidance on that?
 
Teller1900 said:
I think it's still an interesting question, and sparks another. How long after a training event can an endorsement be given, or is there any guidance on that?
Click to expand...
Here's the words from AC 61-65E:
55. Completion of a flight review: section 61.56(a) and (c).

[FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]I certify that ([/FONT][/FONT][FONT=JFILBL+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS][FONT=JFILBL+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS]First name, MI, Last name[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]), ([/FONT][/FONT][FONT=JFILBL+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS][FONT=JFILBL+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS]pilot certificate[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]), ([/FONT][/FONT][FONT=JFILBL+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS][FONT=JFILBL+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS]certificate number[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]), has satisfactorily completed a flight review of section 61.56(a) on ([/FONT][/FONT][FONT=JFILBL+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS][FONT=JFILBL+TimesNewRomanPS,Times New Roman PS]date[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]). [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT][FONT=JFIKGN+TimesNewRomanPSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]/s/ [date] J. J. Jones 987654321CFI Exp. 12-31-05 [/FONT][/FONT]
Click to expand...
Note that the date of completion is listed in the body, and the date of endorsement is listed in the signature block. Thus, one could complete the flight review today and get the endorsement tomorrow, although the date of completion (not the date of endorsement) would be the date referenced for flight review currency lookback. And from 14 CFR 61.56:​
(c) Except as provided in paragraphs (d), (e), and (g) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 24th calendar month before the month in which that pilot acts as pilot in command, that person has—

(1) Accomplished a flight review given in an aircraft for which that pilot is rated by an authorized instructor and
(2) A logbook endorsed from an authorized instructor who gave the review certifying that the person has satisfactorily completed the review.​
Click to expand...

I think the date one "accomplished" the review and the date one "completed" the review would be considered the same. Further, "split" reviews involving ground training one day and flight training another are not unusual -- the completion date is the date the last event is completed. This is consistent with the FAA's policy on the Wings program -- the date the pilot completes the last event of the Wings stage is the date used for flight review equivalency lookback.​

However, if the date of the endorsement is significantly different than the dates the training was logged, and the FAA sees that, I think the FAA is likely to start asking questions, especially if the older training entries don't say anything about "flight review," and most especially if the pilot's flight review currency ran out sometime between the dates of training and the date of the endorsement. Ditto a big gap (like many months) between the ground and flight training entries. Search on "duck test" and "pencil-whipping" for why that would pique their interest.​
 
Last edited:
I do about 8 to 10 simulator currency checks a year in the Cessna 421 and 414. I do not operate as a 142 school. So these checks are done as a combination of both a flight review and instrument competency check and are signed off as both. I use both the simulator and airplane. The check takes two days to complete. There are times where due to scheduling it might be up to two weeks between training sessions. Thats as far as I will let go between the two training sessions.

However, most of the people doing the training are always looking for some sort of changing of the rules to accommodate them. The answer is always the same, No. If they go past the two week time frame I have them repeat the training.

Remember, that when you crash the CFI is the one that will be on the hot seat to answer a lot of questions about your actions. One time I got a call from a friend of mine, also a CFI, who was and accident safety counselor at the time. He called regarding a guy that I gave a flight review to 23 months prior. The guy didn't have charts and flew into a previously non towered airport which was now towered. So he got violated for landing without a clearance, not having applicable charts. The long and the short was he got a nasty ride with the feds. I got to spend about 15 hours dealing with the situation. At a rate of no compensation. So, there is good reason as to why a good CFI is pretty conservative about how they deal with a flight review.

The best way to get what you need is to tell the CFI what you want to accomplish and let them tell you what has to be done to accomplish it. Its not a negotiation. There are certain things that have to be accomplished. Just go with it.
 
I created a very specific list of items to cover during the ground and flight portions of a Flight Review. At the end, the client will initial each section verifying it was done as well as sign the page. The amount of time is documented as well as their logged time and applicable tickets in hand. They get a copy and I get the original. It's based on AC 61-98A but I also use the Flight Review course on FAASafety.gov as a guide for them to review before the scheduled time.
 
Geico266 said:
That might be tought to do as my RV-3 is a single seater. I think I just raised another question. How do you get a BFR if you only have a single seat AC?
Click to expand...
Renting is one option, or you might find one of your RV buddies with the 2-seat RV most similar to your RV-3 (RV-4 maybe?) and beg to borrow it for a couple of hours.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top