Is a LPV (WAS) GPS Appch OK For Check Rides As Precision Appch in Lieu of ILS

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fly4usa

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fly4usa
So I have a IFR training aircraft with GNS420W, dual G5's. It has VOR/LOC but not GS receiver. GS may be a common option, but it was not purchased due to being big bucks.. Not my plane so no whining please. Ha ha.

Talked to GARMIN and they said LPV is accepted as a precision approach, by some DPE's, but not all accept it. So I am trying to reach out to local DPE's and ask.

Students are flying a REDBIRD LD, Garmin G1000 panel Simulator, so they will get their fill of ILS approaches, which goes towards their training.

Back in the day you did a ILS, NDB, VOR. Now it is ILS and RNAV RNAV RNAV.

Comments appreciated. LPV is precision like bit not an ILS. So the only precision approach is an ILS (in GA world). Is there an FAA position on this.

EDIT: I think I answered my own question: It is in ACS.
If you have WAAS and the approach has LPV minimums, you can use that in lieu of an ILS for the precision approach requirement.
 
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fly4usa said:
EDIT: I think I answered my own question: It is in ACS.
If you have WAAS and the approach has LPV minimums, you can use that in lieu of an ILS for the precision approach requirement.
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Correct…I believe the DA has to be at or below 300 feet AGL.
 
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As long as you can do a precision, non-precision and a circling you are good. If you have WAAS and the approach has LPV minimums, you can use that in lieu of an ILS for the precision approach requirement. All in the ACS

Great, home field RNAV 1 and 19 both have LPV. 311 HAT and 290 HAT at DA respectively. SCORE! Have LOC and VOR near by, plus holds and circling galore. Cool.

Thank you
ACS: "Localizer Performance with Vertical Guidance (LPV Minimums)Localizer performance with vertical guidance (LPV) minimums with a decision altitude (DA) greater than 300 feet height above touchdown (HAT) may be used as a non precision approach; however, due to the precision of its glidepath and localizer-like lateral navigation characteristics, an LPV minimums approach can be used precision approach proficiency if the DA is equal to or less than 300 feet HAT."
 
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MauleSkinner said:
only one of those works as a substitute for precision, though.
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I know. That is pretty obvious no? It only takes one. There are other RNAV LPV approaches with a DA that has a HAT of 300ft or less. One nearby has an RNAV LPV approach with DA at 200ft HAT. That is the same as a typical CAT I ILS. Not too shabby.

The concern was some DPE's may still not accept the LPV even with DA at or below 300' HAT> I talked to the DPE and my students are set. We are good, question answered. No worries. My students will get plenty of training flying ILS approaches in a Redbird LD Simulator, with G1000. It is an approved Sim, so and they can log all of it towards their rating. I'll utilize the Sim as much as I can.

George, CFI-I-ME, ATP B737, B757, B767
 
Gee, I wonder whether the Instrument ACS might say something about the equipment required for ACS instrument tasks :confused2::confused2:
 
You certainly offer a bunch of missed matched simulator hardware, instruments and avionics in your instrument program. FYI a used a Garmin 420 prices out $3000 less than a used 430 because no demand. New they were probably less than $500 difference.
 
fly4usa said:
So I have a IFR training aircraft with GNS420W, dual G5's. It has VOR/LOC but not GS receiver. GS may be a common option, but it was not purchased due to being big bucks.. Not my plane so no whining please. Ha ha.

Talked to GARMIN and they said LPV is accepted as a precision approach, by some DPE's, but not all accept it. So I am trying to reach out to local DPE's and ask.

Students are flying a REDBIRD LD, Garmin G1000 panel Simulator, so they will get their fill of ILS approaches, which goes towards their training.

Back in the day you did a ILS, NDB, VOR. Now it is ILS and RNAV RNAV RNAV.

Comments appreciated. LPV is precision like bit not an ILS. So the only precision approach is an ILS (in GA world). Is there an FAA position on this.

EDIT: I think I answered my own question: It is in ACS.
If you have WAAS and the approach has LPV minimums, you can use that in lieu of an ILS for the precision approach requirement.
Click to expand...

A GNS420W does not have a Nav receiver. Therefore it can't fly a localizer or VOR approach and a GS is not relevant because there isn't a Nav receiver. You made another post calling it a GNS430W which does have a Nav receiver and VOR/ILS capability.

This is straight from the Garmin website:

The GNC 420W adds a TSO-certified 760-channel comm transceiver to the GPS 400W WAAS navigation capabilities and color display, creating the first color GPS/comm in the industry. GNC 420W has all the IFR GPS and comm features of the GNS 430W minus the VOR, ILS or glideslope capability you may already have in your aircraft.
Click to expand...
 
I believe he meant the aircraft has a VOR/LOC receiver without GS.
 
Clip4 said:
I believe he meant the aircraft has a VOR/LOC receiver without GS.
Click to expand...
He wrote this:

So I have a IFR training aircraft with GNS420W, dual G5's. It has VOR/LOC but not GS receiver. GS may be a common option, but it was not purchased due to being big bucks.
Click to expand...

In another post, he claimed he had a GNS430W, dual G5's and that GS was not purchased due to the extra cost. Obviously, there is no way to purchase a GNS430W without a Nav receiver that includes VOR, LOC, and GS, since it comes standard. It would be possible to have a CDI that did not have a GS, but since he claimed he has dual G5's, this is not his situation. So in this post, he changes the claim to a GNS420W. But a GNS420W does not have a VHF Nav receiver, so no VOR, LOC, or GS as it comes with only a WAAS GPS and a VHF Com function. All the GNS will have conventional approaches in the database, so he tries to practice a conventional approach with a DME arc leading to an ILS/LOC. He then wonders why it does not auto transfer to follow the localizer. It is awful difficult to switch to the final approach course of a localizer when the GNS420W doesn't have a VHF NAV receiver. So IMHO, inspite of his high experience, but not recently in the GA world, he does not understand the specific equipment capabilities he is working with.
 
This is a great forum but there is a pattern I see of argumentative thread drifts. The ORIGINAL QUESTION WAS ASKED AND ANSWERED. No further comments are needed. This topic is closed. Thanks.

MauleSkinner: Your original comment was great. Thanks for confirming. i also confirmed with DPE who will do check ride of my two Inst students. You 2nd comment was fine but so obvious, I was kidding you. I mastered basic math by age 5, and later learned advanced math, science & physics with a MSME graduate degree. Your 3rd comment is well... pointless, no offense intended or taken.

midlifeflyer: Read my original post. It is in the ACS as I clearly state. However for the record had been advised some DPE's insist on an ILS during check rides. To paraphrase MauleSkinner, I don't assume. I confirmed with my local DPE, he is more than happy to accept the LPV (with HAT at DA 300' or less) as precisian. We are fortunate to have many local airports with RNAV LPV approaches with DA down to 200 feet HAT. As a working pilot do ILS approaches or visual backed up with ILS all day long. So I do want my students to get ILS approach practice. I am giving this training in a REDBIRD LD G1000 Simulator. Have a nice day.

John Collins: This is a common misunderstanding about the GNS430W which you may not know. Yes, 430 has and comes with built in VOR/LOC receiver. I know. Me and my INST students have done VOR and LOC approaches in this aircraft as well as Victor Airway enroute with VOR. All good. However the Glide Slope receiver that pairs to the Garmin 430 is a separate box, an extra, optional box which is expensive. Most people pay for this option. The owner of plane elected to not buy this box.

So for anyone reading this "Beat Horse to Death" thread and cares to understand, not spout "you should have" opinions, the Flying Club plane, I am flying with my students, is not so equip with the OPTIONAL ILS box for the GNS430W. I did not make the call. It is OK. It still is a great instrument trainer which will satisfy the precision approach requirement on a check ride. LPV is NOT considered an actual precision approach for all other intents and purposes, just check ride. Although and further RNAV LPV RNP WAAS GPS receivers can fly these approaches (airport dependent) to 200' HAT and 1/2 Mile Vis, same as a basic Cat 1 ILS. The lack of an ILS which I love dearly is not a big deal for what we are doing. So I see why the owner opted out. To segue to my personal plane, I did similar thing with my RV-7, but left off the VOR/LOC.Garmin GPS 175 WAAS GPS Navigator with LPV Approach. IFR GPS only, no VOR/LOC. It is my personal plane, for light IFR. It is not a trainer and no check ride needed or wanted. I can pick time and place of my personal flights, so I pick what approaches I need to utilize. This is different than say airlines where it is mostly large airports with ILS. To be sure ILS is still king, especially CAT II and CAT III.

QUESTION ANSWERED 9 POST AGO, THREAD CLOSED... I hope. You all fly safe, use good judgement and stay current.

George, CFI-I-ME, ATP CE500, B737, B757, B767
 
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fly4usa said:
John Collins: This is a common misunderstanding about the GNS430W which you may not know. Yes, 430 has and comes with built in VOR/LOC receiver. I know have done plenty of VOR Nav and LOC approaches in this aircraft. However the Glide Slope receiver that pairs to the 430 is a separate box, an extra, optional box which is expensive. Most people pay for this option.

So for anyone reading this Horse beat to death thread and cares to understand not spout opinion "you should have", the Flying Club plane I am flying with my students, is not so equip with the OPTIONAL ILS box on the GNS430W. I did not make the call. It is OK. It still is a great instrument trainer. Further RNAV LPV capable w/ RNP WAAS GPS receivers can fly RNAV (GPS) LPV approach to 200' HAT and 1/2 Mile Vis, same as a basic Cat 1 ILS. The lack of an ILS which I love dearly is not a big deal for what we are doing. So I see why the owner opted out. I did the same thing with my RV-7. I am IFR GPS only, no VOR/LOC. It is my personal plane, for light IFR. It is not a trainer and no check ride needed or wanted. I can pick time and place of my flights, so I can pick what approaches I want to do.

George, CFI-I-ME, ATP CE500, B737, B757, B767
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George,

As an avionics expert who has written the avionics column for the ABS magazine and published articles for Avionics News, IFR magazine, Plane and Pilot and owned/operated an avionics shop that installed dozens of GNS430W systems, what you claim is incorrect. There is no such glide slope receiver that pairs to the GNS430W as a separate box.
 
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