Is a four year degree still mandatory

[Fearless Tower]

Was it a 900? If so I bet they were dropping it in to rock hard landings.

I still think they incorrectly teach the landing in the 900.

No, this was an ancient 200.

The dude must have been a yoke pumper and then pulled the power all out about 30’ above the runway.

 

[Fearless Tower]

A BS in BS isn’t very good insurance, also just stay healthy and be smart, the medical isn’t exactly require Olympic athletics level fitness.

Easy to say ‘just stay healthy’ but I’ve known professional pilots who got sidelined for years because of fresh things like car accidents.

 

[Fearless Tower]

STEM degrees are most likely well worth the pain at this point in our economy... everything else in my totally disconnected opinion is basically proof you could drink and party your way through four years of your parents or the taxpayers (guaranteed student loans) money. Mostly has always been about ego, and the old boys club originally, if they hired somebody without a degree and they did well, it would cheapen their sheepskin, can't have that, gotta have separation of the classes you know! Some things never change in humanity.

STEM degrees are the new MBA.

For stupid reasons, we keep pushing people to do things that they aren’t cut out for.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

They want an engineer that knows all the systems and how they interact.

Concur. I've had more than one airline guy tell me 'I'm not a pilot, I'm a systems manager'. I've also heard it said that getting typed in something like a 737 is sort of like getting a degree in that specific model of airplane.

 

[kayoh190]

I've also heard it said that getting typed in something like a 737 is sort of like getting a degree in that specific model of airplane.

Well, perhaps more like taking a class in that model airplane.

 

[ARFlyer]

No, this was an ancient 200.

The dude must have been a yoke pumper and then pulled the power all out about 30’ above the runway.

He must be on his first 200 leg after flying the 900 for a while. 200 you lawn dart it at idle from 50’ to 10’ and then level off. If you do it right it will squeak down like a 172. You don’t flare more then maybe a 1°.

He must have either pulled the power out and flared at 30’ or pulled the power out to late and try to catch it with a flare attempt.

 

[zodiacflyguy]

A CDL isn't bad to have. You can always find a job if you need to. I am working for a pipeline company now making nearly 100k and a don't really put in that many hours. 50 to 60 is a long week and during that week I sit around a lot watching movies and playing games on my phone.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[steven4200]

Do your flight training. Get a job as a CFI. Pick up a pipeline or banner job. Get 1,500 hours. Go to a regional. While there, being paid, start working through an online degree program at your pace as you can afford it. You need to build time anyway, so do it at an affordable pace. By the time you have the hours to be considered by a major, you'll have a degree.

Don't make this a bigger obstacle than it is. Plus it's a good backup (assuming you get a degree in something useful...I'd do computer science as a backup) should your flight career gets cut short for health or economic reasons. Sadly, you need a four year degree to even get an interview for most jobs these days unless you pursue a trade (which is an excellent choice these days.)

But if you want to fly BIG jets for a major carrier, they require a four year degree.

I appreciate your honesty, it does seem like quite a hill to climb. Getting your pilot license, gaining hours, getting a four-year degree, and all the while making enough money to survive. The only other questions I would have to ask is it worth all that to fly for a major airline? It seems like there is so much risk involved, is the payout in the end worth it? After putting all that personal effort and financial sacrifice into rising to that point where you would be considered for a job, what does a major airline do to take care of their pilot’s?

 

[steven4200]

Being a good pilot in a Cessna is about flying ability, flight time, and passion. The airlines care nothing about that. They want an engineer that knows all the systems and how they interact. What buttons to push and what the regulations are. Airline flying is 90% book learning and 10% flying. I still remember the nights my dad would sit on the couch with 4-5 4" thick binders of material studying for his recurrent training at the airlines. When you go to a simulator for training they aren't looking for your ability to hand fly the airplane, they are looking for your ability to interpret emergencies, how to resolve them, and if all else fails how to manually fly the airplane to a safe crash spot.

I would have no problem reading through a binder full of relevant information to what I am studying, especially technical reading that’s something I have all ways been good at. That was my complaint about college, the information I was reading was not relevant to accounting (my major) so it lost my interest quickly. If I could study something with more substance that was directly related to my career it’s not an issue to learn from a book. Problem solving is also something I enjoy doing and have all ways been good at so long as I know how something works and it sounds like the information to understand the airplane is provided.

Could you recommend a specific degree that would be more desirable to a major airline? For example, if someone majored in aviation vs computer science would the airline care or is the degree all that matters at that point after you have enough flight time?

 

[Juliet Hotel]

I know a senior captain with American who has a degree in biology. The degree is all that matters.

 

[Hacker]

I appreciate your honesty, it does seem like quite a hill to climb. Getting your pilot license, gaining hours, getting a four-year degree, and all the while making enough money to survive.

Literally tens of thousands have successfully walked this path before you.

 

[jordane93]

No, this was an ancient 200.

The dude must have been a yoke pumper and then pulled the power all out about 30’ above the runway.

Idle power by 30 feet is actually proper technique. You should be at idle by about 50 feet on the CRJ200 if you’re on speed.

 

[LDJones]

I appreciate your honesty, it does seem like quite a hill to climb. Getting your pilot license, gaining hours, getting a four-year degree, and all the while making enough money to survive. The only other questions I would have to ask is it worth all that to fly for a major airline? It seems like there is so much risk involved, is the payout in the end worth it? After putting all that personal effort and financial sacrifice into rising to that point where you would be considered for a job, what does a major airline do to take care of their pilot’s?

"Worth it" is highly subjective. If you have a passion for flying it's definitely worth it. If you're just looking for job options, then maybe not. Even at the regional level you can hit six figures within 3-4 years these days. Senior major captains can easily hit $300K. I know of at least one major pilot who worked his airline system to break $600K last year. Plus the added perks like one major that puts 15% of your salary into a 401K every year, without even a match. For that senior captain that's an extra $45K tax deferred. So, financially, it definitely can be worth it.

But there is definitely a hill to climb to get that first paycheck and it's not's not cheap. There are ways to mitigate the costs somewhat through flying clubs and or the right partnership, although the latter requires a little capital up front.

 

[steven4200]

"Worth it" is highly subjective. If you have a passion for flying it's definitely worth it. If you're just looking for job options, then maybe not. Even at the regional level you can hit six figures within 3-4 years these days. Senior major captains can easily hit $300K. I know of at least one major pilot who worked his airline system to break $600K last year. Plus the added perks like one major that puts 15% of your salary into a 401K every year, without even a match. For that senior captain that's an extra $45K tax deferred. So, financially, it definitely can be worth it.

But there is definitely a hill to climb to get that first paycheck and it's not's not cheap. There are ways to mitigate the costs somewhat through flying clubs and or the right partnership, although the latter requires a little capital up front.

If I did undertake the long road to becoming a pilot it would be the passion that I have had for airplanes since I was a kid. Sadly, I have only been on twelve flights in my entire life. I wish I could have gone on more, but they are expensive so its hard to justify buying a ticket for an airplane ride. When I was a kid, I had the opportunity to sit in the copilot seat of a small single engine Cessna and fly for a short time; I have never forgotten that amazing experience it’s something that has stuck with me decades later. It was a private plane owned by a friend of the family who had money to say the least.

Flying wouldn’t be something I do solely for a paycheck but in the end, it does sound expensive and unfortunately like most things in this world it comes down to money. So long as the payout in the end is worth the overall investment, I wouldn’t mind but a person also has to be able to keep a roof over their head, food on the table, close on their back, and save for retirement. Without those things even the greatest passion doesn’t keep gas in your car or pay for everything else mentioned. That’s why I asked about the payout in the end. I don’t want to sound like this is something I would be doing only for money. No matter what a person does in life I believe they should do it because they enjoy it and with any luck big paychecks will be a pleasant side-effect of their chosen profession.

 

[steven4200]

Literally tens of thousands have successfully walked this path before you.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Do you have any advice or input on the best way to walk down this path? It sounds like a long road with a lot of pitfalls if a person isn’t careful; it also sounds like there is more then one way to go about it which is a little intimidating for a rookie.

 

[Hacker]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Do you have any advice or input on the best way to walk down this path? It sounds like a long road with a lot of pitfalls if a person isn’t careful; it also sounds like there is more then one way to go about it which is a little intimidating for a rookie.

I apologize if that came off as snarky -- I really meant it more as an indicator that the pitfalls and challenges that seem big when looking from the outside are entirely tolerable and capable of being overcome by lots of people of many different skills and means -- including you.

Totally understand the feeling of intimidation, but just knowing that many have walked the path before you should hopefully tamp that intimidation and provide a modicum of inspiration.

 

[MD11Pilot]

I just retired from a worldwide major freight carrier (Not Fed Ex), I have no degree but I did get my A&P from Spartan. I flew as a CFI, Charter, Corporate, Regional (Commuter back then) and finally at some very small jet airlines (two of which shut down permanently). I was interviewed at one airline and was rejected immediately due to no degree. I had a very dear friend (former CFI) that was a Captain at Alaska Airlines that took my resume' straight to the Chief Pilot (at the time I had a DC-9 type rating and a couple of thousand hours in the left seat) and the Chief Pilot said "he is exactly what I like BUT HR requires a degree and he doesn't have one so no go". I flew for Midway Airlines out of Chicago and had dinner with a former co-worker while he was in training for UPS. I sat next to a gentleman during dinner and the ride back to the hotel and he said he needed to go study but asked "did I have an application in there and I replied "Yes but I haven't heard anything yet". He said "Well, good luck to you". My friend said that is the Director of Training...you will get a call now. Thirty years later I retired with a seniority number in the top 100.

My advice....do both. Get a degree that you can make a living with (i.e. not Norwegian Studies, any Ethnic Studies or Flower Decorating) and fly at the same time. There are so many ways to do it. You seem to be assuming that it is one and then the other. Nope, at the same time. There are colleges that do have Aviation Management Programs that do both...yes, emphasize the MANAGEMENT part (just a business school that talks about airplanes) fly your butt off and become a CFI (you can do this prior to the classes) and teach your way through school.

Warning...Flying can become a JOB just like any other job. The FAA, the company rules and regulations etc. can make it "not fun" but it sure beats working for a living. Each career has its ups and downs....what matters is YOUR attitude.

PS. The pilot shortage, as someone said above this post, is NOT a hoax. There are plenty of pilots but not with the requirements needed. Those requirements mean...number of hours and type of hours and most importantly a willingness to work for extremely poor wages and work rules. My company has no problem filling every slot....benefits are world class, salaries after probation are number one in the world and most importantly for us...we had the very very very best pilot association in the industry.

 

[Lindberg]

Saying you don't have a degree basically because it is a PITA and uninteresting is definitely not what an employer wants to hear, even if no degree is required. Earning a bachelor's is as much about demonstrating a capacity to learn stuff you don't care about and do what needs to be done. That's why so many jobs just want you to have a four-year degree in something.

If you're only interested in accounting, take some accounting classes at a community college, maybe get an associate's degree. Get a job in accounting and save up to pay for your primary training.

State schools and financial aid are great if the only obstacle to a college degree is money. But you have to want it and work at it.

What job do you have now?

 

[SkyDog58]

... and the Chief Pilot said "he is exactly what I like BUT HR requires a degree and he doesn't have one so no go". ...

That right there is one of the stupidest issues affecting US businesses across the board, HR deciding qualifications. And it is a big issue in aviation as a whole, not just the airlines.

It should be up to the DO or Chief Pilot to decide pilot qualifications and when to possibly waive them. Same for the DOM when it comes to mechanics. I do not recall seeing HR weenie listed in Part 119 for required management personnel. I don’t understand how aviation professionals and leaders could relinquished their hiring decisions to a bunch of people with absolutely no understanding of what it really takes to fly or maintain aircraft. HR is supposed to just facilitate the hiring process by posting openings, gathering resumes, scheduling interviews of candidates that the manager decides to interview, and then assist with the onboarding process. The individual manager should lead the process by setting the criteria and making the decisions.

 

[jordane93]

That right there is one of the stupidest issues affecting US businesses across the board, HR deciding qualifications. And it is a big issue in aviation as a whole, not just the airlines.

It should be up to the DO or Chief Pilot to decide pilot qualifications and when to possibly waive them. Same for the DOM when it comes to mechanics. I do not recall seeing HR weenie listed in Part 119 for required management personnel. I don’t understand how aviation professionals and leaders could relinquished their hiring decisions to a bunch of people with absolutely no understanding of what it really takes to fly or maintain aircraft. HR is supposed to just facilitate the hiring process by posting openings, gathering resumes, scheduling interviews of candidates that the manager decides to interview, and then assist with the onboarding process. The individual manager should lead the process by setting the criteria and making the decisions.

I know at Delta they’re less interested in you being a pilot and more interested in you being a rounded person i.e volunteer work, commmunity service, company positions (CP, check airman, ALPA, etc). There are guys that can’t get hired with 10K total time and 8K turbine PIC. There are guys with 2K total and 0 turbine PIC that get hired. Not sure how it is with the other legacies.

 

[LDJones]

I know at Delta they’re less interested in you being a pilot and more interested in you being a rounded person i.e volunteer work, commmunity service, company positions (CP, check airman, ALPA, etc). There are guys that can’t get hired with 10K total time and 8K turbine PIC. There are guys with 2K total and 0 turbine PIC that get hired. Not sure how it is with the other legacies.

There's definitely a measure of Black Magic and a some luck that dictates some things. I see Captains at my airline that seem much sharper than some of the mainline guys I run across, but they're not getting the "the call". I'm happy I don't have to play that particular game.

 

[hindsight2020]

Flying wouldn’t be something I do solely for a paycheck but in the end, it does sound expensive and unfortunately like most things in this world it comes down to money.

Don't beat yourself up about it too much, you got the right idea.

Here's the bottom line from where I sit: if you don't have the education and training comped like I did (military) or others (civilian benefactors/parents, european/south/central american socialized training et al), then the income purchasing standard of your first 10 years in the so called profession is going to be rough, because this job has a historically exceedingly protracted lifetime income scale.

I made a conscious decision to pursue a lower cap income job (military) that ensured I could raise a family comfortably in my 30s and 40s, at the expense of the hypothetical airline 350K CA income. When I retire, if I pursue airline work, I'll never see that kind of money period dot. Best I could hope for is Widebody FO money with really lukewarm schedules by year 10 based on my age at mil retirement. A much different job and outcome altogether.

PS. The pilot shortage, as someone said above this post, is NOT a hoax. There are plenty of pilots but not with the requirements needed. Those requirements mean...number of hours and type of hours and most importantly a willingness to work for extremely poor wages and work rules. My company has no problem filling every slot....benefits are world class, salaries after probation are number one in the world and most importantly for us...we had the very very very best pilot association in the industry.

Your own anecdote doesn't support your claim. This always goes back to semantics. The definition of shortage is not being met here. Even regionals currently are not meeting the definition of a shortage. in fact they're rolling back hiring, and 2019 is about to cool off domestic hiring when (not if) the yields take a nose dive. There is no airline pilot shortage. A PAY shortage does not equate to a PILOT shortage. Again, your former employer demonstrates this fully.

I know at Delta they’re less interested in you being a pilot and more interested in i.e volunteer work, commmunity service, company positions (CP, check airman, ALPA, etc).

LOL Sounds like MY employer, to the T. Does amazing things for retention and morale on this side of the fence.....

 

[LDJones]

...gave you a lecture about working for the sake of a "passion".

Ummm.....who was "lecturing" about passion? Perhaps the four-year degree requirement has something to do with reading comprehension.

 

[weilke]

I run across, but they're not getting the "the call". I'm happy I don't have to play that particular game.

Hey, but at least you have the college degree.....

 

[hindsight2020]

Ummm.....who was "lecturing" about passion? Perhaps the four-year degree requirement has something to do with reading comprehension.

You're right Jonesy, the word lecture is an inflection I added. My apologies for inferring intent. My aggregate point about considering the source when taking vocational advice stands. And that applies to me as well, which is why I disclosed mine.

 

[jordane93]

There's definitely a measure of Black Magic and a some luck that dictates some things. I see Captains at my airline that seem much sharper than some of the mainline guys I run across, but they're not getting the "the call". I'm happy I don't have to play that particular game.

Yea if it wasn’t for the DGI at 9E I don’t think I could get an off the street interview.

 

[jordane93]

LOL Sounds like MY employer, to the T. Does amazing things for retention and morale on this side of the fence.....

They have every right to set their hiring standards. Doesn’t make it right or wrong. I always chuckle at pilots that complain about Delta’s hiring standards even though they knew what they were getting in to. There are guys, myself included that know the hiring standards and are trying to check off as many boxes as possible. Sometimes you have to play monkey to get your dream job. Life isn’t fair.

 

[Hacker]

the hypothetical airline 350K CA income. When I retire, if I pursue airline work, I'll never see that kind of money period dot.

FWIW, if you don't see that kind of money, it is because you chose not to do so. Never is a really, really long time.

At FedEx there are 757 Captains on property who bid Capt at less than 1 year at the company and are out making $250K+ prior to hitting 3 years. The latest practice bid at FX had the junior widebody Capt awardee with about 3.5 years on property. Prior to that, the junior widebody Captains had about 10 years at the company, and those folks make over $300K just flying what their junior schedules can hold. With some international flying and picking up some draft (premium pay flying on your scheduled days off), $350 is not too difficult.

10 year FOs on the 777 are making just as much as the 757 Captains are.

Can't speak for what's going on at the other legacies, but that's the story in Memphis.

 

[jordane93]

FWIW, if you don't see that kind of money, it is because you chose not to do so. Never is a really, really long time.

At FedEx there are 757 Captains on property who bid Capt at less than 1 year at the company and are out making $250K+ prior to hitting 3 years. The latest practice bid at FX had the junior widebody Capt awardee with about 3.5 years on property. Prior to that, the junior widebody Captains had about 10 years at the company, and those folks make over $300K just flying what their junior schedules can hold. With some international flying and picking up some draft (premium pay flying on your scheduled days off), $350 is not too difficult.

10 year FOs on the 777 are making just as much as the 757 Captains are.

Can't speak for what's going on at the other legacies, but that's the story in Memphis.

I made 115K as a 2.5 year regional captain. Times are good. Money is ripe.

 

[bflynn]

I would get a 4 year degree, but not in aviation. All the pilots are going to be replaced by artificial intelligent computers in the next 20 years.e

Because they're so close to getting that anti-stall to work right when the ASI fails...

Put me down as one more that says you need a degree. Not because pilots are going to become obsolete, but because you have a constant risk of not retiring as a pilot.

 

[weilke]

Literally tens of thousands have successfully walked this path before you.

And many with less schedule flexibility and income than a regional pilot.
The department secretary at the hospital I trained at got her social work degree while working full time for the department.
Our lead-tech got an accounting degree and is now VP for somethingortheother within the hospital.
The lady in charge of the OR sterile supply obtained a bachelor's in a teaching field.

Look at what state you choose for your residence. As a regional airline pilot you have some flexibility on that item. The adult-learning branch of most state universities bends over backwards to allow in-state working adults to finish a degree. The cost per credit is often considerably below that of a traditional 4-year college.

 

[kayoh190]

I made a conscious decision to pursue a lower cap income job (military) that ensured I could raise a family comfortably in my 30s and 40s, at the expense of the hypothetical airline 350K CA income. When I retire, if I pursue airline work, I'll never see that kind of money period dot. Best I could hope for is Widebody FO money with really lukewarm schedules by year 10 based on my age at mil retirement. A much different job and outcome altogether.

Nobody is going to argue with your decision to stay in the military, and I know we've gone around and around over the years about this, but I still think you're out of your damned mind to not at least give the majors a try once you retire. I don't know your age, but I get the impression that you still have a couple decades or more of 121 flying available to you. In another thread you were considering $70K+ EMS and 135 gigs to supplement your retirement income. That's my point of reference when I bust your balls about this.

You won't have to wait until you're 60 for this income surplus you're talking about. My company's progression isn't as fast as @Hacker 's, but over here you're five years from widebody FO or narrowbody CA, and it's getting shorter every bid. And you don't even have to do that stuff. If you're not happy with junior widebody schedules stay in the right seat of a narrowbody and you'll be bidding in the top quarter of the list in less than 5 years. Fly whatever the hell schedule you want. Pick your trips. Be home all the damned time. Or bust your ass for a month or two and bring in some big money. It's all up to you buddy - that's what's cool about it.

I know you want to be home every night, and I get it. In these first five years I averaged just less than 8 nights away from home per month. It's actually not bad for an airline guy, but it's still almost 96 for the year. It sucks - I'd rather be home. My fiancée would rather me be home. But compared to your $70K 135 gig we're not talking an extra 30-50 grand here - Jordan is proud of his $112K and he should be, but you're in the enviable position of not having to make that stop. At a major you'll be north of 200 after 3 years. Upgrade after 5, spend a year on reserve, and you'll be north of 300 after 6. It just keeps climbing from there. It's not unreasonable for $350K in under 10 years, and that's just flying your line - not whoring for premium, etc. Oh, and lest you forget, I work under the s***tiest contract of any of the big hitters!

You're always talking crap about your Arrow's paint job. Open your mind to doing the bag drag and hanging in a hotel every so often, and you'll have the means to paint that thing every f***ing month. And after all that - if it doesn't work out - you're not stuck. You're still well qualified for a thousand different jobs that'll get you home every night.

 

[steven4200]

I apologize if that came off as snarky -- I really meant it more as an indicator that the pitfalls and challenges that seem big when looking from the outside are entirely tolerable and capable of being overcome by lots of people of many different skills and means -- including you.

Totally understand the feeling of intimidation, but just knowing that many have walked the path before you should hopefully tamp that intimidation and provide a modicum of inspiration.

No apology needed, you came off in an inspirational manner that helps put things into a manageable perspective. The hill normally does look more challenging when you’re at the bottom of it. This career path does sound like something that shouldn’t be taken lightly though. I will keep doing my research and looking into options. Thanks again for your time.

 

[steven4200]

Saying you don't have a degree basically because it is a PITA and uninteresting is definitely not what an employer wants to hear, even if no degree is required. Earning a bachelor's is as much about demonstrating a capacity to learn stuff you don't care about and do what needs to be done. That's why so many jobs just want you to have a four-year degree in something.

If you're only interested in accounting, take some accounting classes at a community college, maybe get an associate's degree. Get a job in accounting and save up to pay for your primary training.

State schools and financial aid are great if the only obstacle to a college degree is money. But you have to want it and work at it.

What job do you have now?

I have worked in retail for the past six years. For the past four years I have been taking care of my grandmother because she couldn’t afford nursing home care anymore. At the moment I work part time at PetSmart and take care of her. I became interested in accounting after working my way up through the ranks at a garden store. Eventually I was promoted and started handling their accounts payable and receivable which sparked the interest in accounting. The interest isn’t gone but after doing some research into what an accountant makes and what they paid for their degree I was a little discouraged with my findings. There were other issues with the school I was attending that caused problems too, but I have to take responsibility for those issues because I should have done more research on the college be for I committed to it.

My grandmother is getting up there in years and her dementia is getting worse. I have a feeling she won’t be around much longer (not to sound dark but it’s a fact of life) which is why am looking into careers, options, and asking a lot of questions for a better future.

 

[35 AoA]

I can appreciate where the guys just starting out are coming from here. For a civilian guy to go from nothing to major airline employment is a monumental financial investment. It was damned expensive 17 years ago when I started my initial 141 school, and it is even more crazy now. Not to mention that (hence the thread subject) a 4 year degree has become more expensive as well. I think that is where the aviation industry is losing right now. Plenty of rational people do the cost/benefit analysis, and each year, the entry expenses mount, and the first 10 years of employment or so remain at a pretty unmanageable pay rate (at least it would be so for me). That is unfortunate. Airlines, major and regional alike, are getting a small shot in the arm right now with a lot of former military folks leaving who meet their competitive mins, but that spigot will close at some point. When that happens, the real shortage will be felt.