IR practical test requirements

[jsstevens]

I am scheduled for my practical test Friday. My last training in an airplane was July 27. I did have 3 hours training an an approved flight training device October 5th.

61.65 (c) (2).i says : “Three hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in an airplane that is appropriate to the instrument-airplane rating within 2 calendar months before the date of the practical test; and”

Do I need to get 3 hours training in an airplane this week to be ready?

John

 

[mryan75]

Yep.

And to my mind anyway, that's a long time between actual flying and the checkride. I'd say the 3 hours is a good idea, requirement or not.

 

[jsstevens]

Yep.

And to my mind anyway, that's a long time between actual flying and the checkride. I'd say the 3 hours is a good idea, requirement or not.

I am flying just not logging training. The one plane the instructor I was flying with had access to is down and may not be fixed. The club I belong to has planes but the instructors are busy (which is why I went outside). Catch 22.

in fact I’m flying today with a safety pilot to practice.

 

[benyflyguy]

If far is quoted right then yes. You need the two calendar month sign off. You have time to get it done. I had my third sign off within a week of checkride.

 

[Clip4]

I am scheduled for my practical test Friday. My last training in an airplane was July 27. I did have 3 hours training an an approved flight training device October 5th.

61.65 (c) (2).i says : “Three hours of instrument flight training from an authorized instructor in an airplane that is appropriate to the instrument-airplane rating within 2 calendar months before the date of the practical test; and”

Do I need to get 3 hours training in an airplane this week to be ready?

John

I think you answered your own question.

 

[PaulS]

Yup, and the dpe will check.

 

[flyingron]

Yup, and the dpe will check.

Yep, it's a commonly missed requirement.

 

[PaulS]

Yep, it's a commonly missed requirement.

He needs to make sure he has his endorsements, plus things like annual, 100 hour, pitot static, altimeter, transponder tests, all of it. I spent an hour with my instructor making sure that was all with me when I did my ir in February.

 

[flyingron]

Yep, put postit notes on all my pertinent log book pages as well as generating a summary sheet with all the dates (in fact, I do this all the time. The first page of the aircraft checkist has the various inspection dates as well as the BFR and MED dates for me and my wife. I also spent a lot of time actually making a flight manual with the W&B paperwork and all the other required documents (various flight manual supplements to the nonexistant flight manual, plus the required pilot guides for the IFR GPS, autopilot, etc....), just in case the DPE asked. Fortunately, the DPE must have been impressed by my level of organization as we didn't dive very deep into any of this stuff.

 

[jsstevens]

I think you answered your own question.

I was hoping I missed something.

 

[alfadog]

Is your Club really going to pitch a fit if your CFII sits next to you for 3 hours?

 

[jsstevens]

Is your Club really going to pitch a fit if your CFII sits next to you for 3 hours?

Yes. I know there’s history there including ejecting a member who ignored warnings. I don’t know all the history but it’s not something I’ll buck.

 

[Witmo]

He needs to make sure he has his endorsements, plus things like annual, 100 hour, pitot static, altimeter, transponder tests, all of it. I spent an hour with my instructor making sure that was all with me when I did my ir in February.

Why would the aircraft you bring for an instrument practical test require a current 100 hr inspection?

 

[PaulS]

Why would the aircraft you bring for an instrument practical test require a current 100 hr inspection?

You need to show up with an air worthy airplane, an airplane (rental) not within its 100 hour inspection period is not legal to fly, end of test.

 

[Rgbeard]

This sounds like a possible fail before you begin

Unless you comply quickly

 

[dmspilot]

an airplane (rental) not within its 100 hour inspection period is not legal to fly

Wrong.

 

[James331]

You need to show up with an air worthy airplane, an airplane (rental) not within its 100 hour inspection period is not legal to fly, end of test.

Theres another pilot type part of that 100hr requirement

 

[PaulS]

Theres another pilot type part of that 100hr requirement

Wrong.

Whatever, I needed it for my checkride.

 

[James331]

Whatever, I needed it for my checkride.

Perhaps your DPE or school had their own rules requiring it, but the FAA does not.

For school stuff, if getting instruction unless the CFI provides the plane, or the school provides both the plane and CFI, you don’t need a 100hr

For a DPE acting as a DPE, he’s not providing instruction in the first place

 

[PaulS]

Perhaps your DPE or school had their own rules requiring it, but the FAA does not.

For school stuff, if getting instruction unless the CFI provides the plane, or the school provides both the plane and CFI, you don’t need a 100hr

For a DPE acting as a DPE, he’s not providing instruction in the first place

So I can rent an airplane, over due on its 100 hour inspection, and still legally fly it? Pretty sure that’s wrong, even for an instrument test.

 

[James331]

So I can rent an airplane, over due on its 100 hour inspection, and still legally fly it? Pretty sure that’s wrong, even for an instrument test.

As in just rent it, yes


§91.409 Inspections.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) for hire, and no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides, unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has received an annual or 100-hour inspection

 

[Piper18O]

So I can rent an airplane, over due on its 100 hour inspection, and still legally fly it? Pretty sure that’s wrong, even for an instrument test.

That is what I was led to believe. You don't have to have a 100 hr inspection if it is your airplane, or one you co-own, but if the plane is to be rented out to non-owners, it is required to have a 100 hr inspection.

 

[MauleSkinner]

So I can rent an airplane, over due on its 100 hour inspection, and still legally fly it? Pretty sure that’s wrong, even for an instrument test.

That is how I was led to believe. You don't have to have a 100 hr inspection if it is your airplane, or one you co-own, but if the plane is to be rented out to non-owners, it is required to have a 100 hr inspection.

Read the reg.

 

[James331]

That is what I was led to believe. You don't have to have a 100 hr inspection if it is your airplane, or one you co-own, but if the plane is to be rented out to non-owners, it is required to have a 100 hr inspection.

Nope.

Renting a plane doesn’t make it for hire

 

[Piper18O]

Read the reg.

100-Hour Inspection (FAR 91.409)

The 100-hour inspection is required for aircraft:

• That carry any person (other than a crew member) for hire; or
• That are provided by any person giving flight instruction for hire.

I should have thought to read the FAR instead of just taking someone's word for it!

If those are the only two requirements that cause the need for a 100-hour inspection, then there should be no problem taking the club plane to the check-ride without a 100-hour inspection.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I should have thought to read the FAR instead of just taking someone's word for it!

You’d be amazed how many misconceptions that can head off.

 

[MauleSkinner]

If those are the only two requirements that cause the need for a 100-hour inspection, then there should be no problem taking the club plane to the check-ride without a 100-hour inspection.

Recurring A.D.s can be an issue as well.

 

[Piper18O]

Nope.

Renting a plane doesn’t make it for hire

If only I had waited to see your post with the reg. I wouldn't have had to show my ignorance!
Still trying to wipe egg off my face!

 

[PaulS]

Nope.

Renting a plane doesn’t make it for hire

That’s interesting, and not the way it’s been explained to me. I’ve been switched to different airplanes because of the one I’ve wanted to rent solo being due for a 100 hour inspection. Plus like I said, the dpe I used had me prove the 100 hour had been done. The question in my mind is that because an aircraft is used to provide instruction and may be for hire at any time, is it required to be within its 100 hour inspection at all times? If not, that would seem to be quite a loophole in the 100 hour inspection program. A place wanting to stretch it out could rent for training for 99 hours, then rent to private pilots for another 50, no cfi, then get a 100 hour done again. Doesn’t sound right to me, but like I said before, I did what the dpe wanted, I suggest the op do the same for his test. Next time I get a chance, I’ll ask about this.

 

[James331]

That’s interesting, and not the way it’s been explained to me. I’ve been switched to different airplanes because of the one I’ve wanted to rent solo being due for a 100 hour inspection. Plus like I said, the dpe I used had me prove the 100 hour had been done. The question in my mind is that because an aircraft is used to provide instruction and may be for hire at any time, is it required to be within its 100 hour inspection at all times? If not, that would seem to be quite a loophole in the 100 hour inspection program. A place wanting to stretch it out could rent for training for 99 hours, then rent to private pilots for another 50, no cfi, then get a 100 hour done again. Doesn’t sound right to me, but like I said before, I did what the dpe wanted, I suggest the op do the same for his test. Next time I get a chance, I’ll ask about this.

Loophole?

Your example doesn’t work

Plane goes in for a annual/100hr on December of 2019 at 1200hrs

Plane can be used for hire for 12mo or till 1300hrs, which ever comes first

Plane can be used for non hire for 12mo, and is exempt from needing a 100hr inspection.

Using the plane for non hire DOES NOT reset the 100hr clock, so fly it till it hits 1299hrs for hire, rent it to Joe Bob PPL for 10hrs (9hrs past 100hr) well the plane is still legal for Joe, but it will need a 100hr before it can be used for hire again since it’s now over 100hrs since last inspection, that said it could still be rented out providing the place renting it out doesn’t ALSO provide a CFI with it or use it for other for hire stuff like commercial photo work or as a skydive plane or something.

Also a annual will act/reset the clock on a 100hr, HOWEVER a 100hr will not count as a annual even though in many GA planes it’s more or less the same inspection


That’s the regs

Now if a flight school decideds all planes must always be under 100hr to make it easier on the office girls to not have to worry about it a plane can be rented for hire or not, and what is for hire or not, that’s a valid reason to “100hr all the things”

Perhaps the insurance company says they need to always be under 100hr for some discount or something.

I’ve even seen some schools that do some made up 50hr inspections for marketing reasons to sell more “safety”.

 

[Piper18O]

That’s interesting, and not the way it’s been explained to me. I’ve been switched to different airplanes because of the one I’ve wanted to rent solo being due for a 100 hour inspection. Plus like I said, the dpe I used had me prove the 100 hour had been done. The question in my mind is that because an aircraft is used to provide instruction and may be for hire at any time, is it required to be within its 100 hour inspection at all times? If not, that would seem to be quite a loophole in the 100 hour inspection program. A place wanting to stretch it out could rent for training for 99 hours, then rent to private pilots for another 50, no cfi, then get a 100 hour done again. Doesn’t sound right to me, but like I said before, I did what the dpe wanted, I suggest the op do the same for his test. Next time I get a chance, I’ll ask about this.

I believe James is right.

Renting an airplane doesn't necessarily make it for hire, unless the instructor is the one who owns and is renting the airplane. That was expressed in the FAR.

§91.409 Inspections.
(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) for hire, and no person may give flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides, unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has received an annual or 100-hour inspection

At the time of each event, the logs must be checked. A 100 hr inspection is due for one event and not for another. If the event doesn't require a 100 hr inspection, it doesn't require one. It doesn't matter that the plane was used earlier for a flight that did require one within the first 100 hours after inspection. Each event stands on it's own.

 

[PaulS]

Loophole?

Your example doesn’t work

Plane goes in for a annual/100hr on December of 2019 at 1200hrs

Plane can be used for hire for 12mo or till 1300hrs, which ever comes first

Plane can be used for non hire for 12mo, and is exempt from needing a 100hr inspection.

Using the plane for non hire DOES NOT reset the 100hr clock, so fly it till it hits 1299hrs for hire, rent it to Joe Bob PPL for 10hrs (9hrs past 100hr) well the plane is still legal for Joe, but it will need a 100hr before it can be used for hire again since it’s now over 100hrs since last inspection, that said it could still be rented out providing the place renting it out doesn’t ALSO provide a CFI with it or use it for other for hire stuff like commercial photo work or as a skydive plane or something.

Also a annual will act/reset the clock on a 100hr, HOWEVER a 100hr will not count as a annual even though in many GA planes it’s more or less the same inspection


That’s the regs

Now if a flight school decideds all planes must always be under 100hr to make it easier on the office girls to not have to worry about it a plane can be rented for hire or not, and what is for hire or not, that’s a valid reason to “100hr all the things”

Perhaps the insurance company says they need to always be under 100hr for some discount or something.

I’ve even seen some schools that do some made up 50hr inspections for marketing reasons to sell more “safety”.

So it makes no sense to delay a 100 hour inspection on an airplane that requires it. The airplane I'm flying most gets at least 2, probably 3 or 4 100 hour inspections a year. I suppose my question is for the dpe then. Maybe I'll ask him

 

[James331]

I believe James is right.

Renting an airplane doesn't necessarily make it for hire, unless the instructor is the one who owns and is renting the airplane. That was expressed in the FAR.


At the time of each event, the logs must be checked. A 100 hr inspection is due for one event and not for another. If the event doesn't require a 100 hr inspection, it doesn't require one. It doesn't matter that the plane was used earlier for a flight that did require one within the first 100 hours after inspection. Each event stands on it's own.

It’s also not just the CFI owning the plane, if the school owns the plane and the CFI works for the school it’s for hire. Now if you rent a plane and use your own buddy who’s a CFI and has nothing to do with the school, planes not for hire.

So it makes no sense to delay a 100 hour inspection on an airplane that requires it. The airplane I'm flying most gets at least 2, probably 3 or 4 100 hour inspections a year. I suppose my question is for the dpe then. Maybe I'll ask him

It might make sense.

If I had a student ready for a ride the next day, and the plane he used only had .2 left before 100hr, why delay the student for the 100hr, when the 100hr is not needed for his ride, makes more sense to do the ride then do the 100hr, customer service wise.

 

[Piper18O]

It’s also not just the CFI owning the plane, if the school owns the plane and the CFI works for the school it’s for hire. Now if you rent a plane and use your own buddy who’s a CFI and has nothing to do with the school, planes not for hire.




It might make sense.

If I had a student ready for a ride the next day, and the plane he used only had .2 left before 100hr, why delay the student for the 100hr, when the 100hr is not needed for his ride, makes more sense to do the ride then do the 100hr, customer service wise.

I think James has done an excellent job explaining this regulation with examples that are easy to understand. That is pretty difficult to do with government regulations.

 

[flyingron]

It's up to the club if they want to rent planes without 100 hours (without instructors). If you show up for a checkride and a DPE asks for a 100 hour inspection, I'd point out such is not required and if he argues otherwise, I'd certainly protest.

As for the club's policy, this sort of thing often gets blamed on insurance which is only tangentially true. We rarely get insurers who dictate rental terms, but they approve our existing rental terms when giving quotes. So if we say all rentals will be covered by 100 hours, it's what the insurance requires. The only time we got a suggestion was the insurer wanted us to limit use to public use-paved runway airports. We countered that we'd just require renters to land at airports. They were OK with that.

 

[Witmo]

...
Also a annual will act/reset the clock on a 100hr, HOWEVER a 100hr will not count as a annual even though in many GA planes it’s more or less the same inspection
...

It's the same inspection but the difference is who can do each inspection. Any A&P can do a 100 hr inspection but an annual must be done by an A&P with inspection authorization. If the 100 hr is coming due and the A&P doing it happens to have his IA, then he might as well sign it off as an annual and reset that clock as he should be doing the same inspection process. It's just a matter of changing the verbiage in the maintenance record to reflect an annual inspection.

 

[James331]

It's the same inspection but the difference is who can do each inspection. Any A&P can do a 100 hr inspection but an annual must be done by an A&P with inspection authorization. If the 100 hr is coming due and the A&P doing it happens to have his IA, then he might as well sign it off as an annual and reset that clock as he should be doing the same inspection process. It's just a matter of changing the verbiage in the maintenance record to reflect an annual inspection.

Indeed

Good catch!

 

[Piper18O]

It's the same inspection but the difference is who can do each inspection. Any A&P can do a 100 hr inspection but an annual must be done by an A&P with inspection authorization. If the 100 hr is coming due and the A&P doing it happens to have his IA, then he might as well sign it off as an annual and reset that clock as he should be doing the same inspection process. It's just a matter of changing the verbiage in the maintenance record to reflect an annual inspection.

My flight instructor did exactly that. He would get an annual inspection on his most used plane about every couple of months! He said if someone ever wanted to buy one of his planes, it would be worth a little more because it would have always been within a month or two of an annual inspection.