IR checkride question: clock

Tommar98 said:
Not entirely sure. Plane was equipped with timer which stopped working prior to exam. Had a timer to conduct the required timed hold - no timed VOR approach.


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Basically the examiner let you do something that he shouldn’t have.
 
Ryan F. said:
Close, but not quite. Anytime the aircraft is operated under IFR, the equipment requirements of 91.205 apply -- regardless of the meteorological conditions.
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And I would imagine the DPE would be unimpressed if I pointed out he fact that were weren't filing and thus didn't legally need the clock...
 
mryan75 said:
And I would imagine the DPE would be unimpressed if I pointed out he fact that were weren't filing and thus didn't legally need the clock...
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Except so still have inoperative EQ. A new clock is not an expensive repair.
 
Ryan F. said:
14 CFR 91.205(a) requires that the "items of equipment are in operable condition."
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That still doesn't answer the question. Is a clock that loses 1 second/week "in operable condition"? 1 second/day? 1 second/hour? 1 second/minute? 1 second/second? Or are you saying that accuracy is not an indication of operability?
 
asicer said:
That still doesn't answer the question. Is a clock that loses 1 second/week "in operable condition"? 1 second/day? 1 second/hour? 1 second/minute? 1 second/second? Or are you saying that accuracy is not an indication of operability?
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Which of those options would affect the safety of an IFR operation requiring a clock?
 
asicer said:
That still doesn't answer the question. Is a clock that loses 1 second/week "in operable condition"? 1 second/day? 1 second/hour? 1 second/minute? 1 second/second? Or are you saying that accuracy is not an indication of operability?
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I am simply saying it must be operable, per the regulation.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Which of those options would affect the safety of an IFR operation requiring a clock?
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That brings up an interesting question. Has the NTSB ever cited an inoperable clock as a contributing factor to an accident? After all, the regulation simply says the clock must be in the panel and operable. It doesn't say you actually have to use it.
 
asicer said:
That brings up an interesting question. Has the NTSB ever cited an inoperable clock as a contributing factor to an accident? After all, the regulation simply says the clock must be in the panel and operable. It doesn't say you actually have to use it.
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Interesting, but still probably not relevant. We could come up with all kinds of things that the NTSB hasn’t cited as contributing factors. That doesn’t mean they’re not important to safety.
 
Just curious if anyone uses a panel mounted clock for actual IFR ops? I’m a new IR student and so far using a timer built into the radio panel or an app on my phone.
 
woodchucker said:
Just curious if anyone uses a panel mounted clock for actual IFR ops? I’m a new IR student and so far using a timer built into the radio panel or an app on my phone.
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Yes. I also prefer a sweep second hand to digital, although those are scarce anymore.
 
Instrument student here. So, are we saying that the timer on the transponder is not enough to qualify as "clock" for an IR checkride? It does stay on the timer function as long as we choose so and that's what I've been using. However, if that's not enough, then we have a bunch of airplanes in our club that are nor IFR certified then...
 
MacFlier said:
Instrument student here. So, are we saying that the timer on the transponder is not enough to qualify as "clock" for an IR checkride? It does stay on the timer function as long as we choose so and that's what I've been using. However, if that's not enough, then we have a bunch of airplanes in our club that are nor IFR certified then...
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I flew an IR lesson last night. The instructor used the timer on the transponder for timed turns. I liked the analog one in the panel with it's sweep second hand. It's more eye level and much easier to read at night. And I need new $*&%(_ glasses so I can read at arms length in the panel.
 
MacFlier said:
Instrument student here. So, are we saying that the timer on the transponder is not enough to qualify as "clock" for an IR checkride? It does stay on the timer function as long as we choose so and that's what I've been using. However, if that's not enough, then we have a bunch of airplanes in our club that are nor IFR certified then...
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We’re not saying it, the Chief Consel is...
Ryan F. said:
There's a revised Chief Counsel interpretation (2016) which speaks to all of this here: https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...2016/nkugba - (2016) legal interpretation.pdf
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Clip4 said:
I think so. And I agree the examiner for Tommar98 should have ended his test for bringing an unairworthy aircraft.
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Is that necessarily true? If the clock was placarded as inop and disabled, and they only flew VFR, the aircraft would have been airworthy from a legal standpoint for the type of operation actually flown. Can the DPE allow the use of a non-panel mounted stop watch during the ride? Can you take a check ride in a non-IFR certified DA-20, for example, that is equipped to permit you to properly navigate your three approaches?
 
MauleSkinner said:
We’re not saying it, the Chief Consel is...
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So, reading that article, there's a section that says:
"Another installed appliance with a permanent clock display that meets the requirements of§ 91.205(d)(6) that displays "hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation," is adequate for the purposes of this regulation."
Wouldn't a transponder timer function meet that? It is an installed appliance that displays hours, mins, secs in digital presentation and you can set it up to keep displaying it. I know that an eye-level clock is better, but wondering whether or not the transponder one works.
 
MacFlier said:
So, reading that article, there's a section that says:
"Another installed appliance with a permanent clock display that meets the requirements of§ 91.205(d)(6) that displays "hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation," is adequate for the purposes of this regulation."
Wouldn't a transponder timer function meet that? It is an installed appliance that displays hours, mins, secs in digital presentation and you can set it up to keep displaying it. I know that an eye-level clock is better, but wondering whether or not the transponder one works.
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I do know that the chief instructor from a club I used to belong too claimed the clock page on the expired, panel mounted GPS made the plane IFR legal. Take that for what it's worth...
 
jsstevens said:
I do know that the chief instructor from a club I used to belong too claimed the clock page on the expired, panel mounted GPS made the plane IFR legal. Take that for what it's worth...
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I would want to see an official reference to support that.
 
Ah the joys of certified pricing. At that price I'd want spruce to throw in a leather strap so I can wear it as a wrist watch LOL.
 
MacFlier said:
So, reading that article, there's a section that says:
"Another installed appliance with a permanent clock display that meets the requirements of§ 91.205(d)(6) that displays "hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation," is adequate for the purposes of this regulation."
Wouldn't a transponder timer function meet that? It is an installed appliance that displays hours, mins, secs in digital presentation and you can set it up to keep displaying it. I know that an eye-level clock is better, but wondering whether or not the transponder one works.
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The transponder clock works if it is a permanent clock display...if it can be changed to show your squawk code, it can’t be “the” clock for IFR.

Ironically, most of the digital clocks used as “the” IFR clock allow you to change the display to a couple of different timers.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
The transponder clock works if it is a permanent clock display...if it can be changed to show your squawk code, it can’t be “the” clock for IFR.

Ironically, most of the digital clocks used as “the” IFR clock allow you to change the display to a couple of different timers.
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This is the transponder on the plane I use with the timer function on. I can keep the timer function on all the time and still change the squawk code.

axp transponder.jpg
 
Short and sweet, you must have an operable clock installed in the panel to operate under IFR. A permanent display on another device would suffice; a temporary page (even if you "leave it set there") does not. A clock depiction within one of the GPS pages doesn't suffice. Nor does a transponder clock or timer unless that depiction is part of the permanent display (I'm not aware of one designed for the light piston GA market that is built this way, but I'm not ruling it out.)

Nothing is preventing you from using the timer on the GPS, transponder, or even your wristwatch -- but that does not obviate the regulatory requirement for an installed clock per the guidance provided.
 
MacFlier said:
This is the transponder on the plane I use with the timer function on. I can keep the timer function on all the time and still change the squawk code.

View attachment 79338
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No go. Not only is it not a clock (which stops the conversation in its tracks anyway), it's not a permanent display. You need a clock to be legal. But, you could certainly use this as a timer when conducting IFR operations, alongside your installed clock.
 
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