IR checkride question: clock

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mryan75

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mryan75
Hi all,

I know you need a clock with a second hand for IFR flight, and my understanding is that it has to be panel-mounted. Does this mean that if the panel-mounted clock is not functioning, I cannot substitute a watch or a digital timer of some kind for the checkride? In other words, without the clock in the panel working, the plane is effectively not certified for IFR flight?
 
mryan75 said:
Hi all,

I know you need a clock with a second hand for IFR flight, and my understanding is that it has to be panel-mounted. Does this mean that if the panel-mounted clock is not functioning, I cannot substitute a watch or a digital timer of some kind for the checkride? In other words, without the clock in the panel working, the plane is effectively not certified for IFR flight?
Click to expand...

That’s the way I read it except it doesn’t have to be a “hand,” digital is ok
 
mryan75 said:
Hi all,

I know you need a clock with a second hand for IFR flight, and my understanding is that it has to be panel-mounted. Does this mean that if the panel-mounted clock is not functioning, I cannot substitute a watch or a digital timer of some kind for the checkride? In other words, without the clock in the panel working, the plane is effectively not certified for IFR flight?
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Yes, that’s what it means. If you defer the clock under 91.213, the airplane is no longer equipped for IFR.
 
Being one who doesn't like authority/regulation... (At the micro-management level) And one who is not IFR rated...

If you mount a clock, digital or analog, on the panel with Velcro...

Is that considered "panel mounted?"
 
CharlieD3 said:
Being one who doesn't like authority/regulation... (At the micro-management level) And one who is not IFR rated...

If you mount a clock, digital or analog, on the panel with Velcro...

Is that considered "panel mounted?"
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Being one who doesn’t like authority/regulation at any level...no, not in the context of the OP’s question.
 
mryan75 said:
Hi all,

I know you need a clock with a second hand for IFR flight, and my understanding is that it has to be panel-mounted. Does this mean that if the panel-mounted clock is not functioning, I cannot substitute a watch or a digital timer of some kind for the checkride? In other words, without the clock in the panel working, the plane is effectively not certified for IFR flight?
Click to expand...

Does your transponder have a timer?
 
Sam D said:
Does your transponder have a timer?
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Or your GPS?

But it still has to be a “clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds”, not a “timer displaying hours, minutes, and seconds.”

Choose wisely. ;)
 
So just to be clear, with all the pedantic mofos on here (me included)- a GPS or transponder based clock showing the actual time in hours-minutes-seconds WOULD be legal?

Instrument training starts Nov.5...
 
I can't see where another device that is panel mounted and has timer functions wouldn't be acceptable. My only caveat would be if you need to demonstrate a GPS approach and you still need your timer, you could be out of luck. Not certain if that is likely to happen (I don't think GPS approaches are timed) but a clever examiner might make it so.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
So just to be clear, with all the pedantic mofos on here (me included)- a GPS or transponder based clock showing the actual time in hours-minutes-seconds WOULD be legal?

Instrument training starts Nov.5...
Click to expand...
I would consider it legal, but I’m not your examiner.
steingar said:
I can't see where another device that is panel mounted and has timer functions wouldn't be acceptable.
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Because the reg doesn’t allow for that.
 
If my clock is inop and I could have used it for IFR ops if it worked, but have another operable panel mounted clock (GPS or transponder based), would I need to placard my inop clock?

Seems like a dumb question.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
If my clock is inop and I could have used it for IFR ops if it worked, but have another operable panel mounted clock (GPS or transponder based), would I need to placard my inop clock?

Seems like a dumb question.
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If anything is inop it needs to be properly deferred under 91.213, whether you have a replacement or not.
 
You don’t have to use that clock that is there and working for Regs. We have a clock in the panel but I use a mounted one on the yoke that is basically a kitchen digital timer.
 
mryan75 said:
Hi all,

I know you need a clock with a second hand for IFR flight, and my understanding is that it has to be panel-mounted. Does this mean that if the panel-mounted clock is not functioning, I cannot substitute a watch or a digital timer of some kind for the checkride? In other words, without the clock in the panel working, the plane is effectively not certified for IFR flight?
Click to expand...

You sure about that second hand part?

I haven’t flown a turbine that had a second hand, digital sure, but no hands
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
If my clock is inop and I could have used it for IFR ops if it worked, but have another operable panel mounted clock (GPS or transponder based), would I need to placard my inop clock?

Seems like a dumb question.
Click to expand...

Think if anything doesn’t work it should be placarded and likely disabled
 
This has been discussed many times in aviation message board lore.

Short and accurate answers:

1) The clock needs to be panel mounted and permanently installed, not velcro'd.
2) A watch or other portable device will not meet the requirements of 14 CFR 91.205(d)(6).
3) It does need to be working.
4) A temporary "page" clock display on a transponder or GPS doesn't suffice as the clock itself must be permanently viewable on the display.

There's a revised Chief Counsel interpretation (2016) which speaks to all of this here: https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...2016/nkugba - (2016) legal interpretation.pdf

Regards,
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
If my clock is inop and I could have used it for IFR ops if it worked, but have another operable panel mounted clock (GPS or transponder based), would I need to placard my inop clock?
Click to expand...

If your panel-mounted clock required by 91.205(d)(6) is inoperative the aircraft may still be flown, but only under VFR. Under those circumstances it would need to deactivated or disconnected, placarded inoperative, and an entry would need to be made in the aircraft maintenance logs.

The "(an)other operable panel mounted clock (GPS or transponder based)" won't suffice as it is only a temporary display of the time. See the interpretation I provided, above.

No working panel-mounted clock, no legal IFR flight.
 
Having said all that, are you required to use that particular clock?
 
Ryan F. said:
I am not personally aware of any regulation which requires the pilot actually use the equipment in question -- just that it is installed and operable.
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Thanks. That is how I interpreted it also.
 
"One one-thousand, Two one-thousand, Three one-thousand............. Sixty one-thousand... TURN..."
 
Ryan F. said:
There's a revised Chief Counsel interpretation (2016) which speaks to all of this here: https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...2016/nkugba - (2016) legal interpretation.pdf
Click to expand...
BTW, my reading of that Chief Counsel interpretation is that a dead retaining battery does not render the clock inop if that's its only fault since the letter says "...the clock must be operating for all operations, and operations with the clock inoperative would violate...".

So if you have a clock that forgets the time whenever you turn off the power, you don't need to declare it inop if you reset the time every time you power up the panel.

Agree? Or am I off base?
 
asicer said:
BTW, my reading of that Chief Counsel interpretation is that a dead retaining battery does not render the clock inop if that's its only fault since the letter says "...the clock must be operating for all operations, and operations with the clock inoperative would violate...".

So if you have a clock that forgets the time whenever you turn off the power, you don't need to declare it inop if you reset the time every time you power up the panel.

Agree? Or am I off base?
Click to expand...

The clock in my airplane is mechanical... I have to wind it every time I get in the plane, so by definition it "forgets the time" after pretty much every flight. I know it satisfies the IFR requirement, so I'm assuming a clock requiring an outside power source would be similarly fine. EXCEPT.. if my power dies, my clock still works. Hmmmmm... ?
 
Besides the equipment required for IFR, your inoperative clock violates 91.213 inoperative equipment. Your aircraft is unairworthy VFR and IFR unless it has been removed or deactivated, placarded, and recorded in the maintenance logs or you have an MEL.
 
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I end up breaking the law every day. I try not to, but Big Brother makes it hard.... :D
 
asicer said:
BTW, my reading of that Chief Counsel interpretation is that a dead retaining battery does not render the clock inop if that's its only fault since the letter says "...the clock must be operating for all operations, and operations with the clock inoperative would violate...".

So if you have a clock that forgets the time whenever you turn off the power, you don't need to declare it inop if you reset the time every time you power up the panel.

Agree? Or am I off base?
Click to expand...

If the required installed equipment is operative, the aircraft is legal for the operation in question.
 
Clip4 said:
Besides the equipment required for IFR, your inoperative clock violates 91.213 inoperative equipment. Your aircraft is unairworthy VFR and IFR unless it has been removed or deactivated, placarded, and recorded in the maintenance logs
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How accurate does the clock need to be in order for it not to be considered inoperative?

"It showed the correct time at take-off but it runs a little bit slow. It's losing 86399 seconds/day." ;)
 
asicer said:
How accurate does the clock need to be in order for it not to be considered inoperative?

"It showed the correct time at take-off but it runs a little bit slow. It's losing 86399 seconds/day." ;)
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14 CFR 91.205(a) requires that the "items of equipment are in operable condition."
 
In the bad old days I flew a clapped out twin hauling auto parts. The clock was a Big Ben alarm clock bolted to the top of the glare shield - it was about 4" in diameter with a pair of bells on top for the alarm. Looked really corny, but worked fantastic - this was before ILS was common and almost all approaches were NDB/VOR-A based completely on time and speed. Easy to see from the corner of your eye without having to stare at some microscopic display. I'm ashamed to say my NDB skills are rusty. The last one around here disappeared over ten years ago.
 
Unless your flying in actual conditions under IFR you don’t need the panel mount. You’re probably going under the hood in VFR so the clock is not an issue


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Tommar98 said:
Unless your flying in actual conditions under IFR you don’t need the panel mount. You’re probably going under the hood in VFR so the clock is not an issue.
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Close, but not quite. Anytime the aircraft is operated under IFR, the equipment requirements of 91.205 apply -- regardless of the meteorological conditions.
 
Tommar98 said:
Unless your flying in actual conditions under IFR you don’t need the panel mount. You’re probably going under the hood in VFR so the clock is not an issue


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Click to expand...

Yes indeed. Got sloppy. I had no timer for my checkride because we weren’t u see IFR - explained to DPE and used a cheap clock time attached to my knee board for time


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Tommar98 said:
Unless your flying in actual conditions under IFR you don’t need the panel mount. You’re probably going under the hood in VFR so the clock is not an issue


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Click to expand...
How do you reconcile that with 61.45(b)?
Required equipment (other than controls). (1) Except as provided in paragraph (b)(2) of this section, an aircraft used for a practical test must have—

(i) The equipment for each area of operation required for the practical test;
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MauleSkinner said:
How do you reconcile that with 61.45(b)?
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Not entirely sure. Plane was equipped with timer which stopped working prior to exam. Had a timer to conduct the required timed hold - no timed VOR approach.


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