IPhone users: Apple has a kill-switch...

The silence from the Apple lovers here is DEAFENING....I'm surprised no one jumped to Jobs defense. Had Microsoft put a kill switch in a product, they'd be taking up arms, looting and rioting...

Greg
 
The silence from the Apple lovers here is DEAFENING....I'm surprised no one jumped to Jobs defense. Had Microsoft put a kill switch in a product, they'd be taking up arms, looting and rioting...

Greg
But, well, uh, um, see, well, when Apple does it, it's cool.
 
The silence from the Apple lovers here is DEAFENING....I'm surprised no one jumped to Jobs defense.
*shrug* The application kill switch doesn't bother me at all, in the absence of any demonstrated evil intent on Apple's part. I can see the value in a kill switch: it's Apple's defense against a piece of malware hidden inside an ostensibly useful program.

Had Microsoft put a kill switch in a product, they'd be taking up arms, looting and rioting...
The difference is that we have no particular reason not to trust Apple, and every reason not to trust Microsoft.
 
The difference is that we have no particular reason not to trust Apple, and every reason not to trust Microsoft.
Henh? The reason we have to trust Apple is the same reason we have to trust Microsoft, namely that both operate under the same commandment: "Do no evil, unless there's money in it".

We can count on Apple not "bricking" their phones for as long as the value of the goodwill it will cost them exceeds the value of the profits they're losing as a result of jailbroken phones.

Right now, I don't think the monetary cost to Apple of jailbroken phones is significant, certainly not worth handing Microsoft some ammunition ("A Windows Mobile phone can run any App you like. Those other guys sell you an expensive phone and then kill it if you try to do something on it that doesn't meet their approval"). If a market for jailbroken apps emerges that serves to short-circuit Apple's cut in their App Store, then I suppose Apple might try to tighten the screws a bit, but even then I'd expect something more along the lines of "tough love" that interferes with the jailbroken apps, without actually killing the phone.

Really, Apple's goal is to make you love that stupid phone, and love their stupid image, and the stupid turtlenecks, and everything, so you can buy a new iphone every 12 months, spend a few dollars at the App Store every few days, and maybe even be persuaded to adopt the whole alternate lifestyle, and swap out your grey or black Windows desktop or laptop for a shiny, new white one. Killing your phone doesn't exactly serve these goals well.
-harry
 
Except for, well, the kill switch. :dunno:
What makes you think Apple would use it under any circumstance that didn't involve malware?

Henh? The reason we have to trust Apple is the same reason we have to trust Microsoft, namely that both operate under the same commandment: "Do no evil, unless there's money in it".
The difference is that Microsoft has been proven, time and time again, to do evil because there's money in it, and Apple has not. Which one is a convicted monopolist? Which one has been shown to maliciously interfere with other working software just because it competed with one of their products? WHich one has tried its best to crush its competition with dirty tricks instead of superior technology? Hint: It's not Apple.

I trust Apple. I trust Microsoft as far as I can throw my Zodiac.
 
What does bricking mean?
To kill it.

With a programmable device, it usually means you've dorked up the internal memory so well, the unit cannot possibly function at all. And it has no hope of doing so through another normal upgrade process.

Ta da - to turn it into a brick.

And P.S., RIM provides a way to brick Blackberries
 
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Which one is a convicted monopolist?
Okay, but Apple's not exactly all "freedom, peace and love for the consumer!" when it comes to running Leopard on non-Apple hardware, or playing itunes DRM'ed songs on a non-Apple mp3 player, or third-party apps for the iphone, or choosing a wireless carrier for your iphone, or user-replaceable batteries for an ipod.

All of these things would be in the best interest of Apple's consumers. Does Apple give it to them, out of the kindness of their turtleneck-shrouded hearts, or does it maintain the control it needs to squeeze from them what it can?
-harry
 
LOL "Look, Apple does bad things"....Is that the best defense of microsoft that you can come up with?
 
Imagine the power of remotely using that killswitch.....

bwahahaha!
 
The silence from the Apple lovers here is DEAFENING....I'm surprised no one jumped to Jobs defense. Had Microsoft put a kill switch in a product, they'd be taking up arms, looting and rioting...

Greg

VISTA has a kill switch. XP and VISTA can do updates without your knowledge even you have disabled every option to check for or install updates.

But ho hum, that's been known for years.

I don't have an iPhone (yet).
 
I think it is useful to note that the only "kill switch" we are talking about here is the ability for Apple to disable certain apps on your iPhone remotely, not to brick the phone, which was simply a hypothetical posited by the OP (and countless others no doubt) without any shred of evidence that one exists. Except of course by the cell carrier B)
 
Imagine the power of remotely using that killswitch.....

bwahahaha!

Not beyond the power of imagination and cunning...people are already hacking cell phones. But one advantage of Apple's tight controls over the iPhone is to avoid much of that risk. I suppose.
 
My company blackberry now has a password on it as mandated by some pencilheaded geek who only partially implemented the corporate Computer Security Regulation. They promise that if you screw up your 6 character password 10 times (the last 5 are in open text), your BB will selfdestruct. That means that all your data and applications will be wiped. Your phone remains usable as a phone only. It was implied at the same time that a lost device can have a KILL command sent to it that will totally disable the phone.
And the aformentioned individual has yet to respond to my request/complaint about the alleged "partial implementation".
Most found out when their BB required a password (to be added) to continue using the device.
So it is possible.
And Microsoft did have a license program that was out sniffing illegal copies of data (or so the rumors went).
A network device (by phone or highspeed cable) has no chance of remaining hidden.
 
...And Microsoft did have a license program that was out sniffing illegal copies of data (or so the rumors went).
A network device (by phone or highspeed cable) has no chance of remaining hidden.

DID? Does. In Microsoft Newspeak it's called Windows Genuine Advantage and it bricked my laptop (bought used with Windows I had no idea of the origins of.)

Windows Update does not work without it. In other words if you don't install the kill switch you can't get an update with the security updates that might keep your Windows system from attacking other Windows systems.
 
Frankly, I don't think it's that big of a deal. They NEEDED to put it in for the enterprise folks anyway. It also allows them to quickly squash any sort of malware attack. The fact that it's there *can* be a good thing, and it's up to Apple to make sure it stays a good thing. As Jay says, I trust Apple. I've used their products since 1980, I'd say they've earned it.

Okay, but Apple's not exactly all "freedom, peace and love for the consumer!" when it comes to running Leopard on non-Apple hardware,

Which would quite possibly make it suck as much as Windows - Keeping it on their own hardware means they can control the user experience, and Apple is VERY good at making a VERY good user experience.

or playing itunes DRM'ed songs on a non-Apple mp3 player,

Not Apple's fault - Thank the RIAA for that one.

How many Zune DRM'ed songs can be played on a non-Zune?

or third-party apps for the iphone,

Huh? I've got a ton of 'em. You really need to keep up with the times.

or choosing a wireless carrier for your iphone,

The only choices you'd have would be AT&T or T-Mobile anyway, because the iPhone is a GSM phone and won't work with any other nationwide US carrier. Pretty smart on Apple's part, since the rest of the world uses GSM.

Someday, the AT&T contract will expire and there will be enough iPhone users out there providing positive word-of-mouth that demand on other carriers will be sufficient to develop a CDMA or other variant. Until then - Sorry, it's just smart business.

or user-replaceable batteries for an ipod.

Which would make them heavier, thicker, etc... Though if you want to replace the battery, there are numerous places where you can buy batteries, crack the iPod open and do it yourself. Just don't expect any warranty support afterwards (though by the time you need a new battery you're probably well out of warranty anyway.)
 
Not Apple's fault - Thank the RIAA for that one.

How many Zune DRM'ed songs can be played on a non-Zune?
Though I agree with your other points, this isn't exactly correct. Though everyone uses DRM these days for online music storefronts (and you CAN thank the RIAA for that one) Apple is the only one that I know of that uses a proprietary DRM technology specifically linked to their hardware that they won't share with (almost) anyone else. That was a marketing decision.

Use any other jukebox / online music store and it will be compatible with just about every MP3 player out there. Including the Zune.
 
Keeping it on their own hardware means they can control the user experience, and Apple is VERY good at making a VERY good user experience.
BS.
Not Apple's fault - Thank the RIAA for that one.
Keeping their DRM proprietary is their decision (no doubt to preserve the user experience...)
Huh? I've got a ton of 'em. You really need to keep up with the times.
The choice for the consumer is to jailbreak their phone or else to use only what Apple approves and has taken their cut on.
The only choices you'd have would be AT&T or T-Mobile anyway...
And yet, some how, other phone manufacturers have figured out a way to make phones that run on different networks...

These are all instances of Apple pursuing what's good for Apple, at the expense of what's good for the consumer. Is this a bad thing? No, viva la capitalism. But I don't get the "turtleneck good, dockers evil" mindset that Apple loves you for you and Microsoft just wants your money.
-harry
 
The choice for the consumer is to jailbreak their phone or else to use only what Apple approves and has taken their cut on.
There's plenty of choice out there, and more all the time - and lots of it is free. I've got no heartburn with that. For that matter, getting the software development kit is easy, if you want to develop your own.

And yet, some how, other phone manufacturers have figured out a way to make phones that run on different networks...
Yeah. It's called "different hardware for different networks". Apple made their lives significantly simpler by not playing that game.

These are all instances of Apple pursuing what's good for Apple, at the expense of what's good for the consumer. Is this a bad thing? No, viva la capitalism.
I'm not convinced that your examples qualify as not good for the consumer.

But I don't get the "turtleneck good, dockers evil" mindset that Apple loves you for you and Microsoft just wants your money.
Ever tried to buy a PC without a copy of Windows you'll never use so you don't have to pay the Microsoft tax? Ever tried running an OS that Microsoft squashed ruthlessly with their illegal monopolistic practices (I was an OS/2 user for many years)? Ever had to counter any of Microsoft's anti-open-source FUD? Ever been cracked because a bug that everyone else fixed was one that Microsoft sat on for months?

Microsoft is provably, demonstrably, down-to-the-bone evil. I'll give them my money right after I buy another product of the Ford Motor Company - the 12th of never.
 
Keeping it on their own hardware means they can control the user experience, and Apple is VERY good at making a VERY good user experience.

So which part is BS?

Funny, I was discussing this topic in the lab after the BSOD projection in the Olympics' opening ceremony. Besides the jokes about it probably being a pirated copy, we knew that many of these dumps come from bad drivers. Apple greatly reduces their risk of this happening to them by controlling the hardware design, both in number of permutations to be tested and in motherboard quality.

Sure, the user may not pay the minimum price for the box itself, but they'll be spending a whole lot less time chatting with some tech support d00d in India.

And yet, some how, other phone manufacturers have figured out a way to make phones that run on different networks...

And they have been in that business for how long? That's right; for much longer than about three years. BTW, I believe Sony Ericsson only makes GSM phones, and while there are Nokia-branded phones on Verizon, they are really from Pantech. And that was after Nokia had quit on CDMA designs for some time.

These are all instances of Apple pursuing what's good for Apple, at the expense of what's good for the consumer.

Sorry I just can't agree that it's at the expense of the consumer. I don't think Apple loves me, but I get exceptional value from their products.
 
So which part is BS?
The premise that despite its undying devotion to its consumers, that Apple stomps on clone vendors to protect "the quality of the user experience", as opposed to protecting its exorbitant margins on hardware.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maIgu_7oLm0
"I went to the clone vendors and I said, guys, we're gonna go broke doing this..."
Apple greatly reduces their risk of this happening to them by controlling the hardware design, both in number of permutations to be tested and in motherboard quality.
Well, in that case, this will be a wonderful differentiator for their hardware, allowing them to preserve the current high margins, while those seeking the lowest prices have the option of buying the clone.
And they have been in that business for how long? That's right; for much longer than about three years.
It's not like Apple is developing the chipsets, these are all off-the-shelf.
I don't think Apple loves me, but I get exceptional value from their products.
Sounds reasonable to me.
-harry
 
Ever tried to buy a PC without a copy of Windows you'll never use so you don't have to pay the Microsoft tax?

Bunch of times. Every time I've bought a PC, in fact. Amazingly (I guess?) I succeeded every time.

Ever tried running an OS that Microsoft squashed ruthlessly with their illegal monopolistic practices (I was an OS/2 user for many years)?

Their stuff, their choice. Same with stuff I develop: It goes away and gets replaced when I say it does. Don't like it? Run something else and watch me laugh at it.

Ever had to counter any of Microsoft's anti-open-source FUD?

"Had to"? No. I've had to listen to foaming-at-the-mouth, ridiculous, laughable fiction and zealous unsolicited opinions from dozens of Apple fanboys, though.

Ever been cracked because a bug that everyone else fixed was one that Microsoft sat on for months?

Nope. Not once. Competence = security. Not OS choice.

Microsoft is provably, demonstrably, down-to-the-bone evil.

And it's Microsoft that's spreading the FUD? Mmm-hmm. :rolleyes:
 
But I don't get the "turtleneck good, dockers evil" mindset that Apple loves you for you and Microsoft just wants your money.
-harry
I've said it before: It's marketing. Period. It's not just "our product is superior" arguments that Apple PR flacks and apologists tout. It's "We're the upstanding, honorable underdog and the other guy is EEEEEEEEVIL!!!111!!11"

It is, obviously, total BS. Apple isn't in business to be nice. They're in business to make money, just like everybody else. And all of this good-guy/bad-guy noise is little more than childish, petty nonsense or -- in the case of some of the more unfortunate folks out there -- the net result of people mindlessly allowing themselves to be manipulated. That's all there is to it.
 
Buh-buh-buh-but wait a second... There's only the Good Guy(tm!) and the evil monopoly that is only interested in stealing your money and eating your children. This... this... "linux" stuff just doesn't fit into that picture. Pay 2x as much for our stuff! And just ignore it! (Unless of course you're pretending to be good at writing software, in which case, be like us and slap a GUI on it and call it your own "operating system".)

Edit: And for what it's worth, I'm fairly certain that the organizations I've worked for in the last 6 years or so haven't been stuck paying for a Windows Server license when buying new hardware... Hmm... Yeah, ever. :rolleyes:
 
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And P.S., RIM provides a way to brick Blackberries
Yes, but that's boring at least, and probably eeeeeeeeeeevil somehow. Apple's kill switch is (looking for a Jobs Reality Distortion Field term... hmmm... let's go with) revolutionary.

:rolleyes:
 
That's a recent development. They've advertised this before, but failed to execute. If they do get it right this time - by selling every machine they make for a reduced price if you buy it without Windows - it'll be a great advance. I suspect it'll be more like their previous attempts, where they advertised it but their order-takers on the phone were unable, or unwilling, to actually sell machines that way.

Even if Dell does it, there are lots of other manufacturers out there who will not sell a machine at a reduced price if you don't get it with Windows.

For me, the choice is simple: buy an Apple that works out of the box, is fast, reliable, and stable, or buy a PC with hardware that's selected by the manufacturer with a dartboard and an OS that's insecure and unstable by design. I run OS X because of my background in computing: I spent 15 years as a mainframe systems programmer, where the answer "reboot it!" was totally unacceptable when a problem arose. The greatest crime Bill Gates committed against the world's computer users was not his monopolistic practices, which illegally drove at least two competitors out of the marketplace, but his success at getting people to accept that computers could be unreliable. I know better. I've been there.
 

Apple has one of the best user experiences in any industry. Every time I buy one of their products, I'm consistently impressed even by the "out of box" experience. That's why Apple ends up getting so much free PR.

Keeping their DRM proprietary is their decision (no doubt to preserve the user experience...)

Remember, Steve Jobs was the first to say that they'd rather not have any DRM at all, and they were the first major player to bring DRM-free, higher-quality tracks out. EMI was the only company that would do so on iTunes, the others decided to go to Amazon, etc. instead because the record industry as a whole HATES Apple.

And the Zune DRM is proprietary also - What's the difference?

The choice for the consumer is to jailbreak their phone or else to use only what Apple approves and has taken their cut on.

Apple has made it very clear what few things they will not approve, and frankly I haven't had the desire to have anything up that alley. There's been a ton of really creative stuff done, and the majority of iPhone software is FREE. When I had any software on previous phones, not only was it not free, I had to pay for it again EVERY MONTH. You can keep that plan.

And yet, some how, other phone manufacturers have figured out a way to make phones that run on different networks...

No, they've simply made different phones for the different networks. For example, the RAZR V3 was GSM just like the iPhone, and later on they came out with the V3c CDMA phone for Alltel and Verizon, the V3x, and many other models followed. You couldn't, for example, use a V3c on the AT&T network.

These are all instances of Apple pursuing what's good for Apple, at the expense of what's good for the consumer. Is this a bad thing? No, viva la capitalism. But I don't get the "turtleneck good, dockers evil" mindset that Apple loves you for you and Microsoft just wants your money.
-harry

Of course, all companies love your money. Some companies seem to actually give a rat's behind about making you happy you gave it to them after the fact and earning your repeat business. I know, it's old-fashioned, but I'll take that as long as I can get it. (Wish I could still get Maytag appliances. :( )
 
That's a recent development. They've advertised this before, but failed to execute. If they do get it right this time - by selling every machine they make for a reduced price if you buy it without Windows - it'll be a great advance. I suspect it'll be more like their previous attempts, where they advertised it but their order-takers on the phone were unable, or unwilling, to actually sell machines that way.

Even if Dell does it, there are lots of other manufacturers out there who will not sell a machine at a reduced price if you don't get it with Windows.

For me, the choice is simple: buy an Apple that works out of the box, is fast, reliable, and stable, or buy a PC with hardware that's selected by the manufacturer with a dartboard and an OS that's insecure and unstable by design. I run OS X because of my background in computing: I spent 15 years as a mainframe systems programmer, where the answer "reboot it!" was totally unacceptable when a problem arose. The greatest crime Bill Gates committed against the world's computer users was not his monopolistic practices, which illegally drove at least two competitors out of the marketplace, but his success at getting people to accept that computers could be unreliable. I know better. I've been there.


Not to be argumentative, but where can I buy a Macintosh without MacOS on it?
 
>>Keeping it on their own hardware means they can control the user
>> experience, and Apple is VERY good at making a VERY good user experience.
>
> BS

"BS"? the premise or conclusion?
 
The premise that despite its undying devotion to its consumers, that Apple stomps on clone vendors to protect "the quality of the user experience", as opposed to protecting its exorbitant margins on hardware.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maIgu_7oLm0
"I went to the clone vendors and I said, guys, we're gonna go broke doing this..."
Well, in that case, this will be a wonderful differentiator for their hardware, allowing them to preserve the current high margins, while those seeking the lowest prices have the option of buying the clone.

What happened when Apple DID allow clones, was that Apple lost a crapload of money because the clone makers didn't go after the PC market, they went after the existing (tiny, at the time) Mac market. It was bad for everybody.

As long as using Apple stuff makes me happy and productive, I really don't care about other companies. I wouldn't buy a clone if they were available.
 
Not to be argumentative, but where can I buy a Macintosh without MacOS on it?
You can't. OTOH, the only reason to buy a Mac is to run Mac OS X. If you want to run something else, buy something else; there are plenty of choices.

The difference is that Mac OS X is in no way a monopoly.
 
You can't. OTOH, the only reason to buy a Mac is to run Mac OS X. If you want to run something else, buy something else; there are plenty of choices.

So then how is it unreasonable to say that the only reason to buy a PC is to run Windows? That was basically Microsoft's "evil" argument.

Again: It's a double standard, plain and simple.

The difference is that Mac OS X is in no way a monopoly.
But only because of its lack of market share, not because of a lack of anti-competitive practices (I have to pay the Apple "hardware tax" to run OS X).
 
So then how is it unreasonable to say that the only reason to buy a PC is to run Windows? That was basically Microsoft's "evil" argument.
It's unreasonable because there are lots of other OSes that you can run on a regular PC. Yes, you can run them on a Mac as well, but you're paying more for the Mac because of what comes with OS X, not because the hardware is in some way worth it. Anyone who buys a Mac to run Linux or BSD is wasting their money.

Again: It's a double standard, plain and simple.
Nope. The difference is that Windows has a monopolistic market share, and Mac OS X does not. Monopoly power imposes requirements on the seller that do not normally apply. Microsoft demonstrably and provably broke those requirements.

But only because of its lack of market share, not because of a lack of anti-competitive practices (I have to pay the Apple "hardware tax" to run OS X).
You did not have to pay Apple any money because you bought a computer with a different OS on it. Before the government stopped the practice, you did have to pay Microsoft to buy a machine with OS/2 installed on it. That kind of anti-competitive practice killed OS/2.
 
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