iPad - an EFB?

[TMetzinger]

With 64 GB of flash storage, it's certainly possible to put all the USA approach plates in PDF format (less than 5 GB) with a decent interface (like the one NACO provides) and still have plenty of space left over for a flight planning app, logbook app, weather, etc.

It's not going to replace my laptop for my engineering job, but this may be THE ticket for GA EFB usage, particularly if someone can write an app to use the built-in bluetooth for connectivity to an XM WX receiver. If the GPS receiver works in flight, that would be great.

I was about to go buy an HP TouchSmart tablet, and I still might for my work. But I'm gonna hold off until I get a good hands-on run at the iPad.

 

[alindsay]

I agree - it might be a good device to have in the plane with charts and internet access.

I'll probably get one when available.

Allan

 

[Rob Schaffer]

my Iphone and the apps are great, and with the GPS connectivity in the air, SkyCharts shows my position on VFR and IFR charts, and drops a breadcrumb trail every few minutes to a website, where my wife can see where I am. Works great. Foreflight App is great, so this looks like a good possiblity for an EFB setup like a Kindle DX + Iphone.

What is also nice, the Apps that are already generated for the Iphone can run on the iPad, as he showed with some games, news, and facebook apps.

Interesting,... but what's the price!

 

[Areeda]

Interesting,... but what's the price!

Announced today, from (my poor) memory the basic is about $499 and pimped out $850.

All the approach plates is more like 3GB, I know the difference is insignificant but I download them over a mediocre DSL every 56 days.

It might be a cool platform for a PoA techno-geek project to develop a 696 competitor.

Joe

 

[jesse]

It might be a cool platform for a PoA techno-geek project to develop a 696 competitor.

Exactly what I've been thinking.

 

[Doggtyred]

All I would care is that it had a serial output and a microsoft emulator that I could run a few specialty programs on (ham radio programmers).. Everything else already out there can handle "office" suite stuff...

 

[Bob Noel]

All I would care is that it had a serial output and a microsoft emulator [snip]

oh man, I love straight lines...

 

[Exocetid]

It might be a cool platform for a PoA techno-geek project to develop a 696 competitor.

Joe

I frankly don't see that happening, or being effective, without an add on module. The GPS in the iPhone is weak at best and slow compared to the "we practically invented it" hardware in the Garmin. That said, I could see the iPad being a great EFB in terms of charts and flight management. I really don't see it as a moving map navigator, but would love to be proved wrong.

 

[Areeda]

I frankly don't see that happening, or being effective, without an add on module. The GPS in the iPhone is weak at best and slow compared to the "we practically invented it" hardware in the Garmin. That said, I could see the iPad being a great EFB in terms of charts and flight management. I really don't see it as a moving map navigator, but would love to be proved wrong.

I have to be honest, I haven't even read the blogger's guess of the specs, let alone be qualified to answer your very pertinent question.

I have played with a $20 USB WAAS enabled GPS that works well enough for SITUATIONAL AWARENESS with Jeppesen Flite Deck and my HP laptop.

Joe

 

[Exocetid]

I have to be honest, I haven't even read the blogger's guess of the specs, let alone be qualified to answer your very pertinent question.

I have played with a $20 USB WAAS enabled GPS that works well enough for SITUATIONAL AWARENESS with Jeppesen Flite Deck and my HP laptop.

Joe

I couldn't find anything definitive on what ports it has, but if it has USB then it would not be hard to set it up to use a WAAS enabled dongle. The rest is almost trivial and basically exists already on the touch and phone. The problem with trying to read an approach plate on the iPhone is just that the screen is so small. Piece of cake on the iPad and it could have touch sensitive zones to facilitate comm and panel settings. As a replacement for paper and a situational awareness tool, it might surpass the 696--certainly cheaper!

 

[colohan]

I couldn't find anything definitive on what ports it has, but if it has USB then it would not be hard to set it up to use a WAAS enabled dongle.

It doesn't appear to have a USB port -- but you can buy a dongle (called the "iPad Camera Connection Kit" on Apple's website) which converts the docking port into a USB port.

Also, the tech specs on Apple's web site say "Maximum operating altitude: 10,000 feet". Anyone care to guess what happens if you take it higher? Does this thing have any moving parts?

Chris

 

[SkyHog]

I would wait until you see something similar running Android.....

Oh wait, that's right, its a PHONE OS, running on an underpowered tablet. This is really getting you guys excited? Its a giant iPod touch with almost identical specs.

And iPad sounds like something you find at Walgreens, but are not a big fan of buying for your significant other because it makes you a sissy...

 

[mantakos]

Its a giant iPod touch with almost identical specs.

Except for the size of the screen and the resolution (and the associated impact on browsing and ebooks), the processor, the amount of flash, the battery life, the new software (including iWorks productivity apps), and 3G capability.
-harry

 

[murphey]

It doesn't appear to have a USB port -- but you can buy a dongle (called the "iPad Camera Connection Kit" on Apple's website) which converts the docking port into a USB port.

Also, the tech specs on Apple's web site say "Maximum operating altitude: 10,000 feet". Anyone care to guess what happens if you take it higher? Does this thing have any moving parts?

Chris

Altitude limitation is interesting, considering the "disk" is flash drive.

 

[mantakos]

Altitude limitation is interesting, considering the "disk" is flash drive.

Seems like every ipod has had this limitation in its specs, including the flash-based ones.

I don't know that it's actually based on any real-world limitation for these "non-moving-parts" models, or if it's like "max demonstrated cross-wind" in the POH, and simply indicates what it's been tested for, but not the point beyond which something will fail.
-harry

 

[flyingcheesehead]

With 64 GB of flash storage, it's certainly possible to put all the USA approach plates in PDF format (less than 5 GB) with a decent interface (like the one NACO provides) and still have plenty of space left over for a flight planning app, logbook app, weather, etc.

All of the above is built into ForeFlight except the logbook, and LogTen Mobile handles that well. That was my first thought when I saw the iPad - This plus ForeFlight is going to save me a LOT of paper!

Really, with an iPhone and a MacBook Pro, the iPad isn't of that much use to me, except for the EFB idea. (I bet Scott M would sure love to use the eBook features, but I don't read books that much.) But I've been wanting something like this for a few years just to keep from buying approach plates and throwing most of them away a few weeks later, and there just haven't been any "hits" until now. I think this is gonna be easy and unobtrusive enough to work well, as soon as Ram comes up with a yoke mount on it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Oh wait, that's right, its a PHONE OS, running on an underpowered tablet.

Underpowered? Did you see that thing? Looks pretty screaming fast, actually.

Seems like every ipod has had this limitation in its specs, including the flash-based ones.

I don't know that it's actually based on any real-world limitation for these "non-moving-parts" models, or if it's like "max demonstrated cross-wind" in the POH, and simply indicates what it's been tested for, but not the point beyond which something will fail.
-harry

I heard some speculation that it's something to do with the touchscreen being sealed somehow and that it'll puff up somehow if you go up high. I'd have to try it tho.

 

[TMetzinger]

I couldn't find anything definitive on what ports it has, but if it has USB then it would not be hard to set it up to use a WAAS enabled dongle. The rest is almost trivial and basically exists already on the touch and phone. The problem with trying to read an approach plate on the iPhone is just that the screen is so small. Piece of cake on the iPad and it could have touch sensitive zones to facilitate comm and panel settings. As a replacement for paper and a situational awareness tool, it might surpass the 696--certainly cheaper!

Bluetooth is the built-in method - it does not have USB as a host without extra hardware. Bluetooth would probably be a better fit for in-cockpit use anyway.

And to Nick's comment. You're right, it's NOT a tablet computer like a MacBook with a touch interface. It's a relatively inexpensive appliance that can be easily adapted to a certain amount of functionality. But it may still be perfect as an EFB, provided that 10,000 isn't a real limitation.

 

[DutchessFlier]

Question is will Jepp allow me to convert my current paper subscription to an electronic one that I can download to the IPad without shelling out another wad of $$$$$... I think this solves for me what was the biggest problem of small screen size for the previous available platforms..my old eyes just cannot handle those anymore. Also, we have no idea how well the screen's lighting will deal with bright sunlight during the day.

 

[TMetzinger]

I'd be pleasantly surprised if there were an iPad version of JeppView.

What's needed to make an iPad EFB app work is the ability to periodically load large amounts of data locally, either from a PC/Mac on a LAN using the 802.11 interface, or via a USB mass storage device. I believe there's an SD card reader in the iPad that might be just the ticket.

 

[ScottM]

Announced today, from (my poor) memory the basic is about $499 and pimped out $850.

All the approach plates is more like 3GB, I know the difference is insignificant but I download them over a mediocre DSL every 56 days.

It might be a cool platform for a PoA techno-geek project to develop a 696 competitor.

Joe

The $850 is with 3G connectivity. If all you want is WiFi it is $699. I still think with the capabilities that were listed that the price point is $100 too high. Also it really needs a DVD slot.

 

[Bob Noel]

The $850 is with 3G connectivity. If all you want is WiFi it is $699. I still think with the capabilities that were listed that the price point is $100 too high. Also it really needs a DVD slot.

Blu-ray

 

[Armcorp]

FWIW, I bought a Kindle DX (489 Bucks) with a 9.7 inch screen, for the Approach Plates and AFD data. It is organized and I download it through www.airbrief.com for 10 bucks a month.

I can also read and download books with it!

 

[ScottM]

 

[JeffDG]

FWIW, I bought a Kindle DX (489 Bucks) with a 9.7 inch screen, for the Approach Plates and AFD data. It is organized and I download it through www.airbrief.com for 10 bucks a month.

I can also read and download books with it!

There's a Kindle for iPhone app for that...

 

[ScottM]

There's a Kindle for iPhone app for that...

The new iPad also comes with iBooks!

iStill don't know if iWill get and iPad.

 

[ScottM]

That was fast!
The subtitles are NSFW

 

[gismo]

Underpowered? Did you see that thing? Looks pretty screaming fast, actually.



I heard some speculation that it's something to do with the touchscreen being sealed somehow and that it'll puff up somehow if you go up high. I'd have to try it tho.

That doesn't make any sense to me. There's no gas in an LCD with or without a touchscreen so there's nothing to "puff up". Also I don't believe that there is any non-operating altitude limit specified so if gas expansion was an issue, you couldn't even carry one in your baggage in an unpressurized airplane. My guess is as was already stated, the 10,000 ft limit was simply pasted from earlier products that used rotating magnetic media. This kind of thing shows up in specifications all the time. It might have even been a (semi)conscious decision along the lines of:

Tech writer: "What should we put down for the altitude spec"?

Product (marketing) manager: "Just use what we gave the iPhone."

Engineer: "That's spec'd at 10,000 ft max but there's no logical basis for that limit, it should be higher".

Tech writer: "Well then what should the limit be"?

Engineer: "I don't know. We'd have to do some testing to get a real answer"?

PM: "That would delay the introduction and no one's complained about this on the iPhone. Just put down 10,000 ft. Next question"?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Question is will Jepp allow me to convert my current paper subscription to an electronic one that I can download to the IPad without shelling out another wad of $$$$$...

Jepp is already $$$$$ - ForeFlight is $75/year and includes unlimited NACO plates, hi and lo enroutes, sectionals, airport diagrams, and A/FD data for both the US and some other countries. I doubt Jepp will ever beat that.

I think this solves for me what was the biggest problem of small screen size for the previous available platforms..my old eyes just cannot handle those anymore. Also, we have no idea how well the screen's lighting will deal with bright sunlight during the day.

Yup - Screen size is the key. As for the glossiness, I was asking about that a while back at an Apple store and apparently somebody makes a coating film that can turn a glossy display into a matte display.

What's needed to make an iPad EFB app work is the ability to periodically load large amounts of data locally, either from a PC/Mac on a LAN using the 802.11 interface, or via a USB mass storage device. I believe there's an SD card reader in the iPad that might be just the ticket.

ForeFlight loads through WiFi or even 3G, the data is generally available a day or two before the effective date. The Download Manager lets you pick what data you want to download every cycle, and then you can pick and choose what you want in between.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

FWIW, I bought a Kindle DX (489 Bucks) with a 9.7 inch screen, for the Approach Plates and AFD data. It is organized and I download it through www.airbrief.com for 10 bucks a month.

I can also read and download books with it!

I'm sure that'll work well - But for someone buying today, the entry-level iPad only costs 10 bucks more ($499) than the Kindle, the ForeFlight sub is $75/yr so only about 60% of the price of the AirBrief sub, and the device not only does books, it does MUCH more.

 

[ScottM]

J


Yup - Screen size is the key. As for the glossiness, I was asking about that a while back at an Apple store and apparently somebody makes a coating film that can turn a glossy display into a matte display.

I have that coating for my iTouch and my cellphone, but I have yet to see it in larger sizes for things like the laptop screens. The biggest issue when using it is to get it on without air bubbles.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

That doesn't make any sense to me. There's no gas in an LCD with or without a touchscreen so there's nothing to "puff up". Also I don't believe that there is any non-operating altitude limit specified so if gas expansion was an issue, you couldn't even carry one in your baggage in an unpressurized airplane. My guess is as was already stated, the 10,000 ft limit was simply pasted from earlier products that used rotating magnetic media. This kind of thing shows up in specifications all the time. It might have even been a (semi)conscious decision along the lines of:

Tech writer: "What should we put down for the altitude spec"?

Product (marketing) manager: "Just use what we gave the iPhone."

Engineer: "That's spec'd at 10,000 ft max but there's no logical basis for that limit, it should be higher".

Tech writer: "Well then what should the limit be"?

Engineer: "I don't know. We'd have to do some testing to get a real answer"?

PM: "That would delay the introduction and no one's complained about this on the iPhone. Just put down 10,000 ft. Next question"?

It didn't make any sense to me either, just passing on what I heard someone else say. I think you're probably right on. I doubt there's any sealed gas anywhere in the thing, and the voltages are so low that there wouldn't be any worries about sparks jumping the gap in the physical switches, right? What other issues could there possibly be?

Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I've used my iPhone at 17,500 with no issues whatsoever.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I have that coating for my iTouch and my cellphone, but I have yet to see it in larger sizes for things like the laptop screens. The biggest issue when using it is to get it on without air bubbles.

Well, we were speaking about the 17" MacBook Pro, so it must be available for them too. IIRC, the guy even said the store would put it on so there wouldn't be bubbles. I'm assuming they'd do MUCH better at that than I would.

 

[EdFred]

Well, we were speaking about the 17" MacBook Pro, so it must be available for them too. IIRC, the guy even said the store would put it on so there wouldn't be bubbles. I'm assuming they'd do MUCH better at that than I would.

Just apply it using a 5000lb roller.

 

[TMetzinger]

Well, we were speaking about the 17" MacBook Pro, so it must be available for them too. IIRC, the guy even said the store would put it on so there wouldn't be bubbles. I'm assuming they'd do MUCH better at that than I would.

Small squeegee tool does the trick... works great.

I agree if Foreflight does the trick, and I can get THE WHOLE COUNTRY over WiFi in a reasonable amount of time (like less than an hour), then we're good. But I think that one either needs some intelligent software (downloading only the changes every cycle), or something with more bandwidth than the internet and typical access (which is why I get a DVD from NACO every 28 days).

 

[mantakos]

I agree if Foreflight does the trick, and I can get THE WHOLE COUNTRY over WiFi in a reasonable amount of time...

I don't understand this requirement of getting "the whole country" quickly. I don't travel with a whole country's worth of paper charts, or a whole country's worth of weather briefing. When I'm preparing for a flight, I generally have a pretty good idea of what states I'm likely to pass over (and their neighbors) and it's usually a pretty small subset of the whole.
-harry

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Also, the tech specs on Apple's web site say "Maximum operating altitude: 10,000 feet".

Perhaps they are trying to target the sport pilot market...

 

[TMetzinger]

I don't understand this requirement of getting "the whole country" quickly. I don't travel with a whole country's worth of paper charts, or a whole country's worth of weather briefing. When I'm preparing for a flight, I generally have a pretty good idea of what states I'm likely to pass over (and their neighbors) and it's usually a pretty small subset of the whole.
-harry

That's good. It's different for me. I may be sitting fat dumb and happy in DC and get a call asking if I can fly out to Washington tomorrow and bring an airplane to Tennessee. So my existing PC has the entire NACO chart database on it, and I have paper enroute charts for the whole country, and my Jepp flight planning software covers the whole country too.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I don't understand this requirement of getting "the whole country" quickly. I don't travel with a whole country's worth of paper charts, or a whole country's worth of weather briefing. When I'm preparing for a flight, I generally have a pretty good idea of what states I'm likely to pass over (and their neighbors) and it's usually a pretty small subset of the whole.
-harry

That's good. It's different for me. I may be sitting fat dumb and happy in DC and get a call asking if I can fly out to Washington tomorrow and bring an airplane to Tennessee. So my existing PC has the entire NACO chart database on it, and I have paper enroute charts for the whole country, and my Jepp flight planning software covers the whole country too.

Tim,

FWIW, I counted it up yesterday to see how much space all the data takes:

152MB for airport diagrams (16MB of which is "International" and add'l 661KB for PR & VI, 9MB Alaska, 1MB Hawaii)
3.5 gig for approach plates (25MB of which is PR, VI, and "Pacific Islands", 139MB Alaska, 23MB Hawaii)
2.6 gig for sectionals (1149MB is Alaska, 248MB is Canada, 8MB is PR/VI, 8MB Hawaii)
66MB for high enroutes
920MB for low enroutes (207MB is Alaska, 90MB Canada, 10MB Hawaii)
7.1GB total including international/AL/HI

Assuming you only want plates/low enroutes/airport diagrams for the continental US, you're talking about a total of 4,094 MB. I have a 5-megabit DSL connection at home, that gets almost exactly 1/2 megabyte per second throughput to my computer via WiFi. Thus, 8,188 seconds or 2 hours, 16 minutes, 28 seconds.

Realistically, if you have to go from Washington to Tennessee tomorrow, you can cut out a LOT of data - Plates for California and Texas alone are 615MB, for example. Plus, you'll have enough time waiting in airline terminals, FBO's, etc. that you could start with a minimum and download more as contingencies arise. Plus, if you really get the call the day before, you can easily have it download all the data, even the international data, overnight.

 

[EdFred]

I just pulled up what I've got from flight safety for my FL150:

CONUS
TACs, Sectionals, L1-36, H1-H12: 964MB
Plates, Airport Diagrams: 650MB (gifs, not PDFs)

I d/l at 6.5 Mbps - so about 1/2 hour to get the whole US for me.