Insurance Solo Requirement

[poadeleted21]

My insurance requires for me 5 hrs w/CFI and 5/hrs solo before PAX.
For any other pilot it's something like 500 hours, 200 HP/Complex and 25 in type. My "regular" CFI has thousands of hours, but none in a Bonanza (he did a BFR in one once he said) so technically, he isn't kosher to fly my Bo for insurance purposes. So, the CFI I'm riding with said I'm good to go for the HP/Complex endorsement, he wants to do 1 hour of ground tomorrow before signing me off, I requested we go up for another hour then he can deplane and I'll do the solo bit for an hour or so. but, 4 hours solo going nowhere seems like a waste given IO-470 Fuel Burn, I'd like to go for an hour or so solo then have my "regular" CFI get in and do some instrument training... I know it's just 4 hours and I'll likely just bite the bullet, go for an hour tomorrow, then 2, 2 hour sessions the day after and get it over with but it would be nice to log some "simulated instrument" and possibly even knock out some XC requirements while I'm at it. Cash is pretty low after the purchase of the plane, insurance, getting it home and checked out in it, I'd rather do something other than burn tons of GPH hanging out in the pattern for 4 hours. Any way to get around the 5hr solo requirement if my only Passenger is a multi-thousand hour CFII that just doesn't have the 25 hr "time in type" requirement. I don't mind getting the 5hrs solo before I take anyone else, would just like to re-start my instrument training NOW! Since I've been out of the ball game a couple of months.

 

[\__[Ô]__/]

That sounds like a question best answered by your insurance agent. Insurance companies sometimes waive minimums when pilots have other experience to justify it.

Edit: you might also have the option of a different CFII, but it doesn't seem you want to go that way.

 

[TMetzinger]

Check with your insurance agent. Often the 25 hours time in type is a requirement for another pilot on the open pilot clause, but NOT for a CFI.

I had no problem getting covered to ferry a Bonanza with only three hours in the airplane a couple of years back, based on my hundreds of hours of retract time in Trinidads and Mooneys. They wanted me to get three hours of dual so I was familiar with that particular plane, but they weren't worried about me having problems with the systems. I wasn't a CFI at the time.

 

[l8evator]

Rusty,

Congratulations on your new-to-you Bonanza. You will enjoy this airplane a lot! Now, may I suggest a different point of view? Thanks.

Your insurance company has given you permission to do everything in your new airplane that you planned to do when you bought it, but you can't take a passenger with you for a very few hours. They didn't say you had to do pattern work for 5 hours.

I will speculate (whoa, that's new here) that you can take dual if you want, but it won't count towards your 5 hour solo requirement. A quick call to your agent will clarify that. Solo time in a new airplane is different than worrying about your passenger or noticing that your CFI is twitching in his seat because you left the gear up, or didn't retract it, or didn't switch fuel tanks or, well, you fill in the blanks.

I absolutely loved my initial time in the Bonanza, giddy is a word that might apply. I came from 1,000 hours in a Luscombe (which I also adore) and found the new set of problems to solve, the different timing, the complexity and to be frank, just the sound of that IO470 to be joyful.

Finally, I would ask a few questions: do you really know the airplane fuel system (i.e cruise on the aux tank), the gear-down, full flap, power-on stall characteristics, the pitch sensitivity at aft loading, the best way to plan a descent from 6,000 feet above the destination, etc?

In my not so humble opinion, 5 hours of solo time isn't a sentence, it's a blessing. Go, enjoy your airplane, build your confidence, get better at it, grin with nobody watching. Tell you wife (if there is one) that you have to go to the airport and you have to fly the airplane, it's an insurance requirement.

Enjoy your new airplane.

Scott

 

[Henning]

Go do a trip across some mountains and back and get a feel for the performance there, no need to stay in the pattern, go somewhere that provides a challenge and some education.

 

[N2124v]

What was your time when you bought it? I'm thinking about a Deb, as we've discussed.

 

[poadeleted21]

What was your time like going when you bought it? I'm thinking about a Deb, as we've discussed.

250 hrs, 0 complex, 0 retract. 75K hull value, $1800/year premium. 5hrs dual, 5hrs solo before pax.

Open pilot clause 500hrs, 200 complex/hp, 25 in type.

I'm not trying to circumvent the 5hrs solo before pax, I'm trying to get MORE dual in with a CFI that just happens to not have 25hrs in a Bo.

Yep, I've logged 17 hrs in it so far but the first 11 hrs were high power XC flying to break in a new engine, not a lot of slow flight or landings.

We've gone up and done steep turns (60 degrees) stalls in various configurations etc.. done power off landing from 1000' above the pattern (the bo will come down like a rock with the power off, but rounds out nicely and you can really nail a short field in it) and really explored the envelope. I'm sitting here now working out various W&B loading scenarios due to the aft CG issues.

on a side note.: The Bo handles like a dream. nice and stable, controls are perfect. Steep turns are a piece of cake and way easier to nail than in a typical trainer I'm used to. Power on stalls are harmless, pull the power back to idle and give it a tug and it was WAAY more than I was expecting. If you want to, you can make the stall break very sharp, after the first one, we took it a little easier

 

[poadeleted20]

Regardless of what you want to do or are trying to do, the only place from which to get a reliable answer to your original question is your insurer, either directly or through your agent/broker.

 

[Jaybird180]

Considering that he's already put 17hrs on it, I'm wondering if he's already met the 5hr solo requirement. Seems his original question is now moot.

 

[poadeleted20]

Considering that he's already put 17hrs on it, I'm wondering if he's already met the 5hr solo requirement.

I gather the 17 hours is with an instructor. That's not "solo" as the FAA defines it. Whether it's "solo" for the insurer's purposes is a question only the insurer can answer.

 

[Jaybird180]

My point is that he's exceeded the 5hr dual requirement. I don't know who could misinterpret the meaning of solo and there is insufficient information to determine if he's accomplished that. No need to call the insurer, just go fly 'as the sole human occupant' in the airplane.

 

[PPC1052]

That sounds like a question best answered by your insurance agent. Insurance companies sometimes waive minimums when pilots have other experience to justify it.

Edit: you might also have the option of a different CFII, but it doesn't seem you want to go that way.

It's actually a question for the underwriter. But you can ask the agent to ask for you. See if they will agree to substitute 10 hours of dual instruction for 5 dual and 5 solo. I doubt the underwriter would balk at that. They probably thought that 5 solo was a concession to you so you wouldn't have to pay for the instructor. You might have to do 5 hours under the hood with a type experienced CFI rather than your prefered CFII, but that would seem to get you closer to what you want.

 

[poadeleted21]

My point is that he's exceeded the 5hr dual requirement. I don't know who could misinterpret the meaning of solo and there is insufficient information to determine if he's accomplished that. No need to call the insurer, just go fly 'as the sole human occupant' in the airplane.

Which is what I don't want to do and the whole point of my post. I want MY CFII with me, he just doesn't have 25 hrs in type to meet my insurance requirements. I have another CFI who does have the 25 hrs but he's just doing my HP/Complex sign off. My other CFI is who I want to go do my instrument training with. I'd prefer not to burn a few hundred bucks worth of 100LL for no other reason but "logging time for insurance". I completely understand the insurance clause and why they want those solo hours before I carry PAX. But I'd rather do an hour here and there and resume my instrument training with an instructor far more competent than myself tagging along. It seems silly for insurance purposes that I can't take a guy with 6,000+ hours and multiple ratings along with me but I can take myself. I don't think the insurance company will have an issue with it if I call them. Was just tossing it out there as an "I was wondering" type of question.

I'll probably just bite the bullet and go fly off the 5hrs in one day and be done with it.

 

[Jaybird180]

Please forgive the question if it's offensive, but I'm trying to put this as delicately as possible:

Are you saying that after 17hrs of dual (regardless of who sat right seat), you're not ready to be PIC in the airplane you just purchased?

 

[poadeleted21]

Please forgive the question if it's offensive, but I'm trying to put this as delicately as possible:

Are you saying that after 17hrs of dual (regardless of who sat right seat), you're not ready to be PIC in the airplane you just purchased?

Nope, not at all. The CFI giving me the sign off, said we'll do an hour of ground then he'll sign me off... I asked him to go up once more for a few pattern laps then i'd go solo. Keep in mind, the 1st 11hrs were spent ferrying the plane from the Austin TX area to Missoula MT with a fresh engine overhaul that needed to be broken in. When you break an engine in. You run it wide-ass-open at high power settings and pretty much avoid anything that resembles flight training... Slow flight, stalls, touch/stop/taxi back and go's are big no-no's with a new engine. So I think I logged 3 landings in the first 11 hours. So, the first 11 hours really isn't 11 hours of in depth training, most of it was spent with the autopilot on discussing movies and music. I'll have my HP/Complex sign off the next time I visit the airport, which has been pushed to Saturday now. At that point, instead of hopping in the plane and doing nothing but flying solo for 5 hours, I'd like my "regular" instructor to fly with me and do some instrument training since I haven't done any in a couple of months. The problem with that is, I have to have 5 hrs solo before I can carry PAX OR the person with me has to have 25 hrs in type.. He doesn't, so I'm assuming he is a passenger for insurance purposes. So the way I read the policy, I have to go burn 5hrs worth of IO-470 fuel burn alone before I can allow my regular instructor to get in the plane with me. I'd much rather get the 5hrs solo here and there over the next month or so and go ahead and resume my training with my instructor. It's not really a big deal, just asking. Worst case scenario is I spend a few hundred bucks flying my new plane... Can't really go wrong.

 

[PPC1052]

Wait, you have 17 hours dual with someone experienced in type, and you will have a total of at least 18 when you get signed off for complex/high power? Just ask if the underwriters will substitute that for 5 hours solo. I would be shocked if they don't.

 

[poadeleted21]

Wait, you have 17 hours dual with someone experienced in type, and you will have a total of at least 18 when you get signed off for complex/high power? Just ask if the underwriters will substitute that for 5 hours solo. I would be shocked if they don't.

That's sort of what I was wondering, was also wondering if I could just call and get my CFI named on the policy. I'm sure with 6,000 hrs of nothing but small GA plane experience, mostly in single engine HP/Complex airplanes with 30+ years experience as a CFI they'd waive any sort of requirements for him. I'm sure I can call my insurance company and have an answer in 30 seconds but I'd rather hash it out here and speculate

 

[PPC1052]

Understood. My speculation is they will let you do what you want to do in your case. They may not waive the 25 hours in type requirement for the CFII, but my guess is they will accept the 18 plus hours of dual in lieu of 5 solo.

 

[gprellwitz]

That's sort of what I was wondering, was also wondering if I could just call and get my CFI named on the policy. I'm sure with 6,000 hrs of nothing but small GA plane experience, mostly in single engine HP/Complex airplanes with 30+ years experience as a CFI they'd waive any sort of requirements for him. I'm sure I can call my insurance company and have an answer in 30 seconds but I'd rather hash it out here and speculate

Yup, but to actually know, you're going to have to make that call!

 

[Flying101]

Grant where are the pics...... Been thinking about buying a Bo next year...

 

[gprellwitz]

Grant where are the pics...... Been thinking about buying a Bo next year...

You'll need to ask Rusty. He bought the plane, not me!

 

[poadeleted21]

Grant where are the pics...... Been thinking about buying a Bo next year...

I bought it, here it is.

 

[Jaybird180]

Your empennage is crooked. You should get that looked at


Seriously, nice plane. I like the panel.

 

[BrianR]

Bart, I have nothing to add to your original question, but just curious, as I've been out of the loop for a bit. Is this the Bo which you said was a holdover until you found your "dream" airplane? That looks like a pretty nice panel...

And just to let you know, the Quadra found a good home in Ohio, via eBay.

 

[poadeleted21]

Bart, I have nothing to add to your original question, but just curious, as I've been out of the loop for a bit. Is this the Bo which you said was a holdover until you found your "dream" airplane? That looks like a pretty nice panel...

And just to let you know, the Quadra found a good home in Ohio, via eBay.

This would be "the dream plane" at least I hope it's the last plane I ever buy The stop gap plane I was looking at would have barely cost me what that 530 did I figure the intermediate plane would have cost me more in the long run and made me have to do the sell/buy dance all over again.

This one has an overhauled prop (0 SMOH) overhauled engine (0 SMOH Firewall Forward) landing gear overhauled, The panel you see, and went through an $11K annual just before I picked it up. Overhauled some of the instruments in the panel also. Had some cobwebs due to all the overhauling and maintenance on it to iron on (loose alternator connections, leaky mag seal and an irritating aux pump).

It does have a small "ding" on the right wing that I'm going to get fixed, eventually upgrade the 530 to WAAS, needs some covers that they didn't put back on after the landing gear O/H. The paint is 7/10 shape, has a little bit of ???oxidation??? in a spot on the wing i'm going to try to shine out.

yes i went over budget but I was tired of looking at junk.

Please send ramen

 

[Flying101]

You'll need to ask Rusty. He bought the plane, not me!

Sorry about that Grant...I'm new to forum...well not new just new at responding...

 

[N2124v]

Yeah, my budget is going to have to increase.mi am just not seeing what I want in the 45-55k range. My plan is for this plane to grow old with me.

 

[BrianR]

This would be "the dream plane" at least I hope it's the last plane I ever buy The stop gap plane I was looking at would have barely cost me what that 530 did I figure the intermediate plane would have cost me more in the long run and made me have to do the sell/buy dance all over again.

This one has an overhauled prop (0 SMOH) overhauled engine (0 SMOH Firewall Forward) landing gear overhauled, The panel you see, and went through an $11K annual just before I picked it up. Overhauled some of the instruments in the panel also. Had some cobwebs due to all the overhauling and maintenance on it to iron on (loose alternator connections, leaky mag seal and an irritating aux pump).

It does have a small "ding" on the right wing that I'm going to get fixed, eventually upgrade the 530 to WAAS, needs some covers that they didn't put back on after the landing gear O/H. The paint is 7/10 shape, has a little bit of ???oxidation??? in a spot on the wing i'm going to try to shine out.

yes i went over budget but I was tired of looking at junk.

Please send ramen

Awesome. Congrats! And ramen isn't that bad...

 

[Henning]

Yeah, my budget is going to have to increase.mi am just not seeing what I want in the 45-55k range. My plan is for this plane to grow old with me.

People are finally starting to realize that cheap planes are just that...amazing. If you want something nice, you still have to spend the same money for it you did 6 years ago. All the 'deals' disappeared 6 months into the market collapse, everything else with prices that are half and less of what they were before are typically junk. If you don't mind flying junk you can fly some neat models for dirt cheap for a while, but as soon as you have to play maintenance catch up on them you're way behind the eight ball over paying good money for a good plane right off the bat. If you can't afford the good plane, you sure as hell can't afford the cheap plane. Cheap boats, planes and women are the most expensive things out there. If you want any of the above you're best off springing the extra bucks to get quality and condition.

 

[poadeleted21]

People are finally starting to realize that cheap planes are just that...amazing. If you want something nice, you still have to spend the same money for it you did 6 years ago. All the 'deals' disappeared 6 months into the market collapse, everything else with prices that are half and less of what they were before are typically junk. If you don't mind flying junk you can fly some neat models for dirt cheap for a while, but as soon as you have to play maintenance catch up on them you're way behind the eight ball over paying good money for a good plane right off the bat. If you can't afford the good plane, you sure as hell can't afford the cheap plane. Cheap boats, planes and women are the most expensive things out there. If you want any of the above you're best off springing the extra bucks to get quality and condition.

I spent double what I wanted to and 50% more than I was willing to. The big problem is that there's 100 delusional sellers for every 1 grounded in reality. So the market isn't necessarily picking a price point. It's picking a price point AND finding a seller who's come to terms with the market. The plane I purchased Vrefed at about 40% more than I paid for it. The seller knew that the condition the plane was in, it would never sell (slung a rod). So he overhauled every part on it put it on the market for a month or two and took offers. My low ball was apparently the highest bid but he wouldn't sell it for that (or maybe he would have and he just sucked another 5K out of me, but for 5K I wasn't going to let it walk away, he probably knew that). I can show you planes that aren't near as nice where the sellers are asking 20K more than I paid. If you'll note, they've been on the market for 6-8-12-24 months. I sold my plane in about a week, good planes priced right are moving, fast. If you'll note i made the suggestion to another poster on the Debonair thread, to "if you see something you like, take it". Good stuff isn't sitting around very long. That plane that keeps popping up every month to the top of TAP/eBay/Barnstormer/Controller etc... a dollar to a doughnut says it's a POS and overpriced.

 

[Henning]

I spent double what I wanted to and 50% more than I was willing to. The big problem is that there's 100 delusional sellers for every 1 grounded in reality. So the market isn't necessarily picking a price point. It's picking a price point AND finding a seller who's come to terms with the market. The plane I purchased Vrefed at about 40% more than I paid for it. The seller knew that the condition the plane was in, it would never sell (slung a rod). So he overhauled every part on it put it on the market for a month or two and took offers. My low ball was apparently the highest bid but he wouldn't sell it for that (or maybe he would have and he just sucked another 5K out of me, but for 5K I wasn't going to let it walk away, he probably knew that). I can show you planes that aren't near as nice where the sellers are asking 20K more than I paid. If you'll note, they've been on the market for 6-8-12-24 months. I sold my plane in about a week, good planes priced right are moving, fast. If you'll note i made the suggestion to another poster on the Debonair thread, to "if you see something you like, take it". Good stuff isn't sitting around very long. That plane that keeps popping up every month to the top of TAP/eBay/Barnstormer/Controller etc... a dollar to a doughnut says it's a POS and overpriced.

There is no such thing as a 'market value' on a use item, not that matters anyway, there is only a concern for market value on a resale item. If you aren't reselling then what you pay for it is only the opening cost and what you can sell it for is largely irrelevant. What is much more relevant is what condition it's in because that is what is going to determine your cost of ownership.