Insurance in a rental aircraft when flying with a CFI

rk

rk

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Rafi
I typically rent from my flight club which has coverage for its members, so I don’t have any additional insurance. However, I am planning to take a couple of demo flights in a new flight school with their CFIs without becoming a member (the goal is to do transition training in that school in a new airplane if everything works out). So I am wondering how does the insurance works in these cases if an accident happens, assuming I am a private pilot:
  • Only the CFI is liable since he was instructing
  • Both the CFI and I are liable
  • The PIC is liable (assuming we agreed before the flight who was going to be the PIC)
 
Generally, if you are hiring both the CFI and the aircraft from the same company you are not liable in the event of an accident.

If you and the CFI agree on PIC, that needs to be in writing.

In some states, a form explaining insurance and if you are liable must be provided before you rent the aircraft.
 
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Rafi Kamal said:
I typically rent from my flight club which has coverage for its members, so I don’t have any additional insurance. However, I am planning to take a couple of demo flights in a new flight school with their CFIs without becoming a member (the goal is to do transition training in that school in a new airplane if everything works out). So I am wondering how does the insurance works in these cases if an accident happens, assuming I am a private pilot:
  • Only the CFI is liable since he was instructing
  • Both the CFI and I are liable
  • The PIC is liable (assuming we agreed before the flight who was going to be the PIC)
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The closest to reality is your second one, with one small mod.
  • Both the CFI and I are potentially liable
The two most important things to understand about liability are (1) while what you are is relevant as to what your standard of care is, liability is mostly based on what you do (or don't do), and (2) more than one person can be liable for the same event.

Real world example: Pilot who owns a 152 goes to a flight school for some training in a Cutlass. They have a gear up when the pilot thinks he is raising the flaps during a touch and go, with the unfortunately common result. Who is responsible? The plot did the act that resulted in the gear up. The CFI could have done a number of things to prevent it. You can argue back and forth all you want, insert different facts that change who was "more" responsible, but we know one person who wasn't - the insured owner of the airplane. And when the owner's insurance paid the claim it was entitled to go after anyone and everyone who was responsible for the damage.

Fortunately, I didn't have to deal with that part of it. My involvement was due to the pilot's insurer denying coverage. Once that was out of the way, it was their problem not mine or the pilot's.
 
Generally speaking, you do not need renters insurance in this situation. You are covered by the flight school’s insurance when an instructor is on board, but it doesn’t hurt to cover your bases with regards to subrogation in the event of an accident. I would also argue that it doesn’t matter who is deemed “PIC” in this case.
 
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Check your club insurance. You might get lucky and find it includes renter's insurance for members. My personal policy includes renter's insurance.
 
Half Fast said:
My personal policy includes renter's insurance.
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I get surprised by aircraft owners who don't know that most (all?) aircraft owner policies include non-owned aircraft insurance coverage.

But maybe I shouldn't since the problem in the 152-Cutlass situation I mentioned earlier was the insurance agent who didn't know the owner's policy covered it.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I get surprised by aircraft owners who don't know that most (all?) aircraft owner policies include non-owned aircraft insurance coverage.

But maybe I shouldn't since the problem in the 152-Cutlass situation I mentioned earlier was the insurance agent who didn't know the owner's policy covered it.
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Another nice thing is that (in my case at least, with Avemco), the damage cap is the amount your owned airplane is insured for. Standard renter's policies often have laugably low caps that are really only good for covering the owner's deductible.
 
Eric Pauley said:
Another nice thing is that (in my case at least, with Avemco), the damage cap is the amount your owned airplane is insured for. Standard renter's policies often have laugably low caps that are really only good for covering the owner's deductible.
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You can get a pretty good sized renter's policy but the cost goes up very quickly. Using Avemco as an example, many flight schools limit your exposure to their deductible, so there's a reason for their popularity. The premium for $5000 hull coverage (common deductible) is currently $120. Bump the hull coverage up to $50,000 and we're talking $500. Go for the max $150,000 and it's $1,400.
 
Half Fast said:
Check your club insurance. You might get lucky and find it includes renter's insurance for members. My personal policy includes renter's insurance.
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Are the members the names insureds are is the club the named insured?
 
Eric Pauley said:
Why not? Seems like good peace of mind and it could be something as simple as a text saying "You'll be acting as PIC right?"
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It doesn't have to be written. It can be verbal. If the CFI is giving instruction, then usually that means the CFI is PIC. By rule, it can be logged as PIC. If there is any question who is PIC, then it might be wise to decide in front of a witness, just in case.

Yes, a text would work if you are arranging the plans. When I fly with another CFI, we just talk about it before takeoff. Since I have thousands more hours than the other CFIs, I usually suggest that I be the PIC and will take the controls if we have a real emergency.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
It doesn't have to be written. It can be verbal. If the CFI is giving instruction, then usually that means the CFI is PIC. By rule, it can be logged as PIC. If there is any question who is PIC, then it might be wise to decide in front of a witness, just in case.

Yes, a text would work if you are arranging the plans. When I fly with another CFI, we just talk about it before takeoff. Since I have thousands more hours than the other CFIs, I usually suggest that I be the PIC and will take the controls if we have a real emergency.
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Seriously, this is a simple signed statement signed on a piece of notebook paper. “Both pilots agree Gilbert Buettner is pilot in command on all training flights”.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I get surprised by aircraft owners who don't know that most (all?) aircraft owner policies include non-owned aircraft insurance coverage.
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Mine never did because adding it [to my owner's policy] would have cost more than the apply-online Avemco [renter's] policy that I had.
 
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Clip4 said:
Are the members the names insureds are is the club the named insured?
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The terms can change base on the contract but the "named insured" is almost always the owner of the policy - the one who gets covered for damage to the aircraft. If the members are covered they would be "additional" insureds with language about what is covered and what is not.

They are definitely not common but I've read two policies like that. One was a flight school in Colorado. The other a large flying club in North Carolina.
 
Pinecone said:
Mine doesn't. And yes, I asked.
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"Asking" doesn't necessarily answer the question. My client in that situation asked and was told "no." "Reading" answers it one way or the other.

Timely... I did a flight school checkout for an owner whose airplane is down for extended maintenance. The flight school recommends renter insurance, he asked me for a recommendation, so I asked, "doesn't your policy cover it?" "I don't think I have that." He did.
 
That only applies if your aircraft is out of service.

I rent a Citabria for tail wheel fun. It would not cover me flying that, as my airplane is not out of service.
 
Pinecone said:
That only applies if your aircraft is out of service.
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Not true for individuals. See point 2 under Description of Insurance.

Reading over this yesterday I was surprised to see the Standard category limitation. I’ll have to keep that in mind if demoing experimentals.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Interesting... This is from Avemco's standard owner policy. You have an endorsement removing it?

View attachment 117471
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My owner's policy was not with Avemco (they were much more expensive). Adding non-owned coverage to my owner's policy would have cost more than the cheap, online Avemco renter's insurance that I got instead.
 
Data point: my policy with Acceleration only extends "renter's insurance" if the insured is a single natural person or a single natural person and spouse. My airplane is owned by an LLC, so I don't get such coverage (nor would I if it was a partnership with multiple individual registered owners/insureds).

upload_2023-5-22_11-31-44.png
 
midlifeflyer said:
The terms can change base on the contract but the "named insured" is almost always the owner of the policy - the one who gets covered for damage to the aircraft. If the members are covered they would be "additional" insureds with language about what is covered and what is not.

They are definitely not common but I've read two policies like that. One was a flight school in Colorado. The other a large flying club in North Carolina.
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This is why I asked the question. I have seen club policy where the named insured was club and it’s members and the club as a named insured with checkout and currency requirements for the members in make and model.

I inquired about the rental thing once from an insurance company and they said coverage for club members renting aircraft was not what they intended. It was removed from subsequent polices.
 
Eric Pauley said:
I would agree with this. Even if you're technically not liable it's a lot harder to explain this than to just punt it to insurance.
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Also, my renter's policy underwriter told me that if I convert to an owner, they would credit the remaining months/$ of the renter's polocity into to owned policy.
 
Clip4 said:
This is why I asked the question. I have seen club policy where the named insured was club and it’s members and the club as a named insured with checkout and currency requirements for the members in make and model.

I inquired about the rental thing once from an insurance company and they said coverage for club members renting aircraft was not what they intended. It was removed from subsequent polices.
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The last Club policy I reviewed (negotiated, as a club board member really) did have a named insured clause that read "[The Club], its officers, directors and members" or something very similar to that.
 
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