Instrument test in VFR airplane?

H

hammerhorse

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Messages
3
Display Name
Display name:
Hammer Horse
I part-own part of a 172 that has bare minimum equipment for IFR (com/nav/vor/glideslope/clock/transponder) but doesn't have any of the inspections done to be current. Does an airplane need to be IFR current to conduct an instrument exam?
 
No, but it does need to be current to complete the IFR Cross Country requirements in it.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
As long as you do not operate under IFR, the airplane doesn't need to meet the IFR currency. Very few IFR checkrides are actually conducted under IFR for practical reasons (the FAA actually discourages DPEs from acting as PIC).

Note that I'd be concerned that an airpalne that doesn't have the IFR certs may be lacking an essential VFR cert, such as the transponder which has to e done every 24 months even for VFR use.
 
This is what I suspected, thanks!

Now just need to see if it's worth getting it up to date instead of renting a plane for the CC requirement
 
The pitot/static and transponder checks required really aren't all that expensive. Mine usually run around $300. It sounds like you have everything else you need. I wouldn't rent -- I would get my airplane checked out.
 
There's no check of the pitot and you need the transponder check even when VFR.
 
I guess I said it wrong, then. At any rate, usually about $300 covers it for IFR.
 
I have been practicing for my instrument with similar equipment. With a single nav/com I have found it difficult to manage frequencies and descent points without DME or GPS. Because its VFR out don't reply on a vfr gps for descent points along the approach. I would ask the examiner what airports to expect approaches at and try a couple holds and approaches in your 172.
 
Honestly, if I showed up for an instrument check ride in a plane that wasn't READY to go fly on an IFR flight plan at that moment, the DPE I use would be more than mildly annoyed. Legal or not, just get the checks done and skip the "but technically it's fine" argument.
 
somorris said:
The pitot/static and transponder checks required really aren't all that expensive. Mine usually run around $300. It sounds like you have everything else you need. I wouldn't rent -- I would get my airplane checked out.
Click to expand...

That.

Or just fly don't go into IMC with it as is, but with your current plane, renting would be just burning money
 
brcase said:
No, but it does need to be current to complete the IFR Cross Country requirements in it.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Click to expand...

stupid question, but does it specifically state that the plane must be certified for the IFR cross country? My plane was always current, so I never had to do much digging.
 
My understanding is you can file IFR and do the XC in a non IFR plane, you just can't go IMC.
 
James331 said:
My understanding is you can file IFR and do the XC in a non IFR plane, you just can't go IMC.
Click to expand...

Show me the FAR that says that. 91.205 requires certain equipment for IFR flight, regardless of if you are IMC or not. For the long XC you must be on an IFR flight plan, operating under IFR. You don't need to be IMC for that, but you do need the equipment required by 91.205 to be on that plan.
 
Caramon13 said:
Show me the FAR that says that. 91.205 requires certain equipment for IFR flight, regardless of if you are IMC or not. For the long XC you must be on an IFR flight plan, operating under IFR. You don't need to be IMC for that, but you do need the equipment required by 91.205 to be on that plan.
Click to expand...

VOLUME 5 airman certification
Chapter 2 Title 14 CFR PART 61 CERTIFICATION OF PILOTS AND FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS
Section 9 Conduct an Instrument Rating Certification

5-439 USE OF AIRCRAFT NOT APPROVED FOR IFR OPERATIONS UNDER ITS TYPE CERTIFICATE FOR INSTRUMENT TRAINING AND/OR AIRMAN CERTIFICATION TESTING. The following paragraphs are intended to clarify the use of an aircraft not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate for instrument flight training and/or airman certification testing.
A. IFR Training in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC). Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91, sections (§§) 91.109, 91.205, and, for an airplane operated in controlled airspace under the IFR system, §§ 91.411 and 91.413. An aircraft may be operated on an IFR flight plan under IFR in VMC, provided the PIC is properly certificated to operate the aircraft under IFR. However, if the aircraft is not approved for IFR operations under its type certificate, or if the appropriate instruments and equipment are not installed or are not operative, operations in Instrument Meteorological Conditions (IMC) are prohibited. The PIC of such an aircraft must cancel the IFR flight plan in use and avoid flight into IMC.
 
James you just affirmed my point:

Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91, sections (§§) 91.109, 91.205.

Of course you can fly on an IFR flight plan in VMC. My goodness...

What you can't do is go fly on an IFR flight plan (day or night) without meeting the requirements of 91.205. Forget about VMC/IMC, it doesn't matter or negate the requirements of that section.

Your quote also answers your question about IMC. If you fly on an IFR flight plan, you are essentially saying you are equipped to deal with IMC conditions, should they come up. So you need the equipment to do so. That's all that snippit tells me.
 
Caramon13 said:
James you just affirmed my point:

Instrument flight training may be conducted during VMC in any aircraft that meets the equipment requirements of part 91, sections (§§) 91.109, 91.205.

Of course you can fly on an IFR flight plan in VMC. My goodness...

What you can't do is go fly on an IFR flight plan (day or night) without meeting the requirements of 91.205. Forget about VMC/IMC, it doesn't matter or negate the requirements of that section.

Your quote also answers your question about IMC. If you fly on an IFR flight plan, you are essentially saying you are equipped to deal with IMC conditions, should they come up. So you need the equipment to do so. That's all that snippit tells me.
Click to expand...

Uhhhhhhh, dude.... did you actually read what I quoted?
 
It says for IFR training you can file IFR even in a plane that isn't IFR due to instruments or type certificate, as long as PIC (your CFII) is instrument rated and you're VMC.

It is worded poorly, but if you read it a couple times you'll get it.
 
James331 said:
It says for IFR training you can file IFR even in a plane that isn't IFR due to instruments or type certificate, as long as PIC (your CFII) is instrument rated and you're VMC.

It is worded poorly, but if you read it a couple times you'll get it.
Click to expand...
Does anyone else think the FAA is asking for trouble allowing a pilot in a VFR only aircraft to operate under a IFR clearance as long as he remains VMC? Controllers will have no warning that what they think is an "IFR" aircraft is restricted to VMC until the pilot deviates or cancels. Practicing IFR procedures under VFR, the controllers know you're VFR even if vectoring you for a "practice" ILS and they will remind you to remain VFR after clearing you for the approach. I just think this is dumber than dirt. And just how are we as pilots supposed to know the rules when these factoids are published, not in a regulation or even in the AIM, but in something called the "Flight Standards Information Management System" which isn't on any of my reading lists and isn't mentioned in any training I've received over the years. I see nothing to be gained by accepting an IFR clearance you know you can't comply with when there's weather in the way and the controller thinks you're an IFR aircraft but not.
 
James331 said:
It says for IFR training you can file IFR even in a plane that isn't IFR due to instruments or type certificate, as long as PIC (your CFII) is instrument rated and you're VMC.

It is worded poorly, but if you read it a couple times you'll get it.
Click to expand...

A prime example of an airplane that fits this description is the Diamond DA-20. Not approved for flight in instrument conditions yet they are commonly equipped better than many "IFR" certified airplanes. Someone once told me that the rules about VFR only airplanes being allowed to fly IFR in VMC changed due to the commonality of the Diamonds in the flight training environment and the desire to provide instrument training in them. I'm not sure if that's true or not though.
 
mondtster said:
A prime example of an airplane that fits this description is the Diamond DA-20. Not approved for flight in instrument conditions yet they are commonly equipped better than many "IFR" certified airplanes. Someone once told me that the rules about VFR only airplanes being allowed to fly IFR in VMC changed due to the commonality of the Diamonds in the flight training environment and the desire to provide instrument training in them. I'm not sure if that's true or not though.
Click to expand...
You don't need to operate under an IFR clearance to do instrument training. Nothing precludes getting training in instrument flying in a DA20 as long as you stay VMC. What the FSIMS documents says is you can file and fly under IFR as long as don't go IMC which I think is assinine as ATC won't automatically know you're limited to VMC until you get close to a cloud.
 
Witmo said:
Does anyone else think the FAA is asking for trouble allowing a pilot in a VFR only aircraft to operate under a IFR clearance as long as he remains VMC?
Click to expand...

That's not what they're allowing. They're allowing it for training purposes only, not just anyone.
 
Witmo said:
You don't need to operate under an IFR clearance to do instrument training. Nothing precludes getting training in instrument flying in a DA20 as long as you stay VMC. What the FSIMS documents says is you can file and fly under IFR as long as don't go IMC which I think is assinine as ATC won't automatically know you're limited to VMC until you get close to a cloud.
Click to expand...

This leads me to believe that you do need to file and fly on an IFR clearance:

"(ii) Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves—

(A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;

(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and

(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems."
 
dmspilot said:
That's not what they're allowing. They're allowing it for training purposes only, not just anyone.
Click to expand...
Huh? We:re talking about IFR training. When you file IFR there's no "training" block that gets checked off to differentiate you from any other IFR aircraft. There's also no VMC only block on an IFR flight plan so the controller won't know you have that limitation which is why it's a stupid idea.
 
mondtster said:
This leads me to believe that you do need to file and fly on an IFR clearance:

"(ii) Instrument flight training on cross country flight procedures, including one cross country flight in an airplane with an authorized instructor, that is performed under instrument flight rules, when a flight plan has been filed with an air traffic control facility, and that involves—

(A) A flight of 250 nautical miles along airways or by directed routing from an air traffic control facility;

(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and

(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems."
Click to expand...
So you rent or borrow an IFR airplane for the cross country. Hopefully you get some actual IFR time also. You could still do most of the practice/training flights vfr under the hood.
 
It's very interesting that they are essentially saying someone with an instrument rating replaces equipment, in certain situations.
 
Yes, you can do instrument training, practical test and IFR clearances in an aircraft not certified for IMC.

Robinson R44 and Schweizer 300 Helicopters are not certified for IMC. I used the 300 for my instrument rating and the R44 for my IPC.

Put "VMC only, aircraft not IFR certified, training flight" in Block 11 of your flight plan.

EDIT - note: as it was explained to me, it must say that the aircraft is not IMC certified on the Type Certificate, not I'm too cheap to update my certs.
 
jaybee said:
Yes, you can do instrument training, practical test and IFR clearances in an aircraft not certified for IMC.

Robinson R44 and Schweizer 300 Helicopters are not certified for IMC. I used the 300 for my instrument rating and the R44 for my IPC.

Put "VMC only, aircraft not IFR certified, training flight" in Block 11 of your flight plan.

EDIT - note: as it was explained to me, it must say that the aircraft is not IMC certified on the Type Certificate, not I'm too cheap to update my certs.
Click to expand...
Did the person explaining it provide any references for this notation requirement?
 
Last edited:
Witmo said:
Huh? We:re talking about IFR training. When you file IFR there's no "training" block that gets checked off to differentiate you from any other IFR aircraft. There's also no VMC only block on an IFR flight plan so the controller won't know you have that limitation which is why it's a stupid idea.
Click to expand...

Any rule can be subject to abuse; a complaint about the possibility of such abuse is a poor argument.
 
dmspilot said:
Any rule can be subject to abuse; a complaint about the possibility of such abuse is a poor argument.
Click to expand...
I'm saying that if one were to comply with exactly the interpretation of the rule as stated in the FSIMS document, it could cause an unsafe condition. I'm not talking about abusing the rule. I think it's unsafe to be on an IFR clearance and unable to enter IMC conditions. The controller thinks he's working an IFR aircraft when at any time the aircraft must cancel or deviate due to weather. Surprise surprise. "Diamond 1234, Approach, turn right heading 240" "Diamond 1234 Unable" "Diamond 1234, Approach, Understand you are IFR?" "Affirmative, we just have to remain VMC, 234"
You now have a VFR aircraft that you would never have permitted to be mucking about with all your IFR traffic that's deviating all around for weather and causing you a real headache--all because he filed and accepted an IFR clearance but couldn't enter IMC like every other IFR player. Now suppose there's several VMC only aircraft on IFR clearances and they all decide the weather's going below VFR mins and they need to deviate from the IFR clearances they had accepted. Fun times for the controller.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Did the person explaining it provide any references for this notation requirement?
Click to expand...

Yes. The same thing James said in Post 15.

Derp, reread what you wrote. No, no reference for the notation in the remarks block just common sense.
 
Witmo said:
I think it's unsafe to be on an IFR clearance and unable to enter IMC conditions.
Click to expand...

How is it unsafe if there are no clouds and the visibility is 50 miles?

Witmo said:
The controller thinks he's working an IFR aircraft when at any time the aircraft must cancel or deviate due to weather.
Click to expand...

Cancelling IFR takes a matter of seconds, I don't see why the controller would care.
 
dmspilot said:
How is it unsafe if there are no clouds and the visibility is 50 miles?



Cancelling IFR takes a matter of seconds, I don't see why the controller would care.
Click to expand...
It's unsafe when it's marginal VFR and the controller is working multiple IFR aircraft not knowing that some are limited to VMC. The controller can't see what the clouds and vis are. All of a sudden an IFR aircraft says he needs to cancel for visibility or a cloud? You don't see a potential problem?
 
Witmo said:
It's unsafe when it's marginal VFR and the controller is working multiple IFR aircraft not knowing that some are limited to VMC. The controller can't see what the clouds and vis are. All of a sudden an IFR aircraft says he needs to cancel for visibility or a cloud? You don't see a potential problem?
Click to expand...
First, What exactly, is the risk?

Second, controllers have to deal with IFR traffic that can't take the assigned headings, but still STAY IFR on a fairly regular basis, due to thunderstorms or ice...seems more of a problem there.

Third, pilots are expected to exercise a certain level of judgment. If the weather's too marginal for an operation, don't do it.
 
MauleSkinner said:
First, What exactly, is the risk?

Second, controllers have to deal with IFR traffic that can't take the assigned headings, but still STAY IFR on a fairly regular basis, due to thunderstorms or ice...seems more of a problem there.

Third, pilots are expected to exercise a certain level of judgment. If the weather's too marginal for an operation, don't do it.
Click to expand...
I've already stated the risk--
What exactly is the benefit of operating on an IFR clearance restricted to VMC, vs being a VFR aircraft practicing instrument procedures? Both are restricted to VMC. All players know the latter is VFR, while the former is IFR only as long as he is in VMC. I would hazard a guess that putting "restricted to vmc" on an IFR flightplan does not get passed to every controller handling the flight.

How about hearing from a controller? They're the ones that have to keep airplanes from trading paint. Is it worth the potential confusion?
 
Witmo said:
You now have a VFR aircraft that you would never have permitted to be mucking about with all your IFR traffic that's deviating all around for weather and causing you a real headache--all because he filed and accepted an IFR clearance but couldn't enter IMC like every other IFR player. Now suppose there's several VMC only aircraft on IFR clearances and they all decide the weather's going below VFR mins and they need to deviate from the IFR clearances they had accepted. Fun times for the controller.
Click to expand...
How would a controller not "have permitted" a VFR aircraft to be somewhere that it can be legally under VFR? They could conduct their training under VFR and be in exactly the same place.

Once those IFR aircraft cancel and become VFR, they aren't the controller's problem, nor should they pose a risk for IFR traffic that can go into the clouds. They're already separated, and that separation should only increase as they move away from IFR altitudes that they may bbe flying.
 
Witmo said:
I've already stated the risk--
What exactly is the benefit of operating on an IFR clearance restricted to VMC, vs being a VFR aircraft practicing instrument procedures? Both are restricted to VMC. All players know the latter is VFR, while the former is IFR only as long as he is in VMC. I would hazard a guess that putting "restricted to vmc" on an IFR flightplan does not get passed to every controller handling the flight.

How about hearing from a controller? They're the ones that have to keep airplanes from trading paint. Is it worth the potential confusion?
Click to expand...

There is little to no risk.

The advantage is learning how to operate under the IFR system.

Really don't see how this is that big of a deal.
 
I'm still waiting to hear from a controller. If they can't see a problem with this then so be it.
 
If you are on an IFR flight plan and cancel, that would not (as far as I can see) bother a controller. They are not responsible for VFR flights and all of a sudden they have one less target to worry about.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top