Instrument Checkride?

LoLPilot

LoLPilot

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LoLPilot
So I have kicked the can down the road long enough and have finally decided it is time to schedule my IR checkride. Any advice? My CFII I've been working with is leaving to the airlines (congrats!) and I've been shuffled to a couple of CFII's to complete the signoff. No big deal as I know them already and like them. My CFII also finished my PPL and I will miss him dearly - it's really impressive how much of a bond you form with someone after spending a few days' worth of time in a 172 cockpit.

We had our last review flight the other day. Most things went well. I've been getting over a cold so with the balloon head my spatial disorientation was very pronounced. The thing I would have busted on I think was our practice ILS. I was within 200 ft of minimums and I got left of course and just couldn't correct enough. I was trying to nudge it back without manhandling the airplane and when I saw it was getting to the outside of the scale I was just like "**** it going missed for full deflection." He said he saw exactly what was happening and he was like "you were THIS close!" He said I'd actually gotten the correct track exactly parallel to the course and the needle just tracked out as I got closer to the threshold :(. Typically I monitor ILS approaches on the 430W's in the Instrument planes but just in case the DPE would see that and decide that I had a GPS failure I tried to run the approach old school just using the two VOR/ILS systems.

I'm assuming that the same thing holds true on the IR as the private - you will have a colossal mistake and the DPE knows that and if you catch it and apply the correct follow-up and then don't do it again they will view that okay? UGH I don't even wanna do this checkride :D
 
See page A-9 of the ACS for definitions of Satisfactory and Unsatisfactory Performance.
 
Not trying to be a snark but that’s not helpful nor was it what I am asking. I have the ACS. You could well tell someone training for a marathon “put one foot in front of the other for 23 miles.” It wouldn’t be incorrect.
 
I passed my IR checkride last year and I will pass on what I learned.

1. Blow him away on the oral if you can. If you impress him on the oral, he's much more likely to look on you favorably on the practical.

2. Don't do things that are stupid and show bad ADM. The airplane I used for my checkride had a routine issue with mag drop being a bit excessive. Usually me and my instructor would fly it anyway. So when I got that high mag drop with the examiner, I was sorely tempted to say oh let's go anyway. That would have been stupid. So I didn't. And had to reschedule with a different airplane.

3. If you foul up, and this applies directly to your post, recover as best you can and carry on. I'm pretty sure he'll let you know if you failed it right then and there and he will offer you a continuance or return to the airport. If he doesn't say anything then you're probably all right. When I was making my first turn onto a DME arc approach, I actually started to turn left rather than right. Probably not the right thing for him to do but the examiner said hey it's a right turn. I think that was because he was already pretty satisfied with how I was doing.
 
LoLPilot said:
Not trying to be a snark but that’s not helpful nor was it what I am asking. I have the ACS. You could well tell someone training for a marathon “put one foot in front of the other for 23 miles.” It wouldn’t be incorrect.
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26.2 miles


Anyways, make sure you know your reporting requirements and lost com procedures. If you don't know something, know where to find it. Go over your assigned flight plan with scenarios and emergency procedures. For example, "What would you do/required if XX happens at XX point into the flight?" "Would you make another attempt at this approach if you failed to break through at XX point in the flight?"

The flight portion isn't too bad, though I'm sure I left a trail of bricks that I s*** across Ventura County during mine which was at night in actual conditions. If you exceed a limit, E.G, ±100 feet, catch it quickly and make a positive correction.
 
LoLPilot said:
Not trying to be a snark but that’s not helpful nor was it what I am asking. I have the ACS. You could well tell someone training for a marathon “put one foot in front of the other for 23 miles.” It wouldn’t be incorrect.
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If “failure to take prompt action when a tolerance is exceeded” doesn’t directly address your question, you’re not ready. Especially since it’s exactly the same verbiage that’s in the Private Pilot ACS that you’re comparing.
 
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alfadog said:
I passed my IR checkride last year and I will pass on what I learned.

1. Blow him away on the oral if you can. If you impress him on the oral, he's much more likely to look on you favorably on the practical.

2. Don't do things that are stupid and show bad ADM. The airplane I used for my checkride had a routine issue with mag drop being a bit excessive. Usually me and my instructor would fly it anyway. So when I got that high mag drop with the examiner, I was sorely tempted to say oh let's go anyway. That would have been stupid. So I didn't. And had to reschedule with a different airplane.

3. If you foul up, and this applies directly to your post, recover as best you can and carry on. I'm pretty sure he'll let you know if you failed it right then and there and he will offer you a continuance or return to the airport. If he doesn't say anything then you're probably all right. When I was making my first turn onto a DME arc approach, I actually started to turn left rather than right. Probably not the right thing for him to do but the examiner said hey it's a right turn. I think that was because he was already pretty satisfied with how I was doing.
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Thanks. I think #2 is one of the things I’m wondering about. Like how liberally to apply this. For instance if we were doing an approach during my instruction as long as my instructor didn’t say anything I’d fight for it to minimums. As we have gotten into the prep phase I’ve been more apt to call something off early and go missed if I don’t like how it’s looking, even if I still have room for error or I’m not at minimums.

MauleSkinner said:
If “failure to take prompt action when a tolerance is exceeded” doesn’t directly address your question, you’re not ready. Especially since it’s exactly the same verbiage that’s in the Private Pilot ACS that you’re comparing.
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Sorry, I really misread your original post and thought it was just the “the Acs tells you how to pass your checkride” bit. All of us at my school are basically told that the interpretation of “prompt corrective action” means according to the FAA you must correct before you exceed. Like the +100 -0 limits for approach altitudes is if you notice at +20 you’re descending and you start correcting but go -20 before you stop descending then you’ve decided you like checkrides so much you’d like to do this one over.
 
LoLPilot said:
I'm assuming that the same thing holds true on the IR as the private - you will have a colossal mistake and the DPE knows that and if you catch it and apply the correct follow-up and then don't do it again they will view that okay? UGH I don't even wanna do this checkride :D
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Almost exceeding the limits is acceptable. Exceeding the limits (each maneuver has tolerances) is a bust. The limits on the allowable deflection are 3/4 scale. As others point out, if you're getting close to a bust in instruction, you're not ready.
 
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LoLPilot said:
Sorry, I really misread your original post and thought it was just the “the Acs tells you how to pass your checkride” bit. All of us at my school are basically told that the interpretation of “prompt corrective action” means according to the FAA you must correct before you exceed. Like the +100 -0 limits for approach altitudes is if you notice at +20 you’re descending and you start correcting but go -20 before you stop descending then you’ve decided you like checkrides so much you’d like to do this one over.
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Sounds like your flight school is giving you bad information.
 
Just got my instrument rated a few months ago. The DME told me he would not try and "trick" me on anything and just treat this as another flight. If I made a mistake, just fix it. Don't tell him I made a mistake, he already knows. He also told me to use my iPad, phone, etc and back it up with acceptable radios. He said that's what you'll do in the real world anyway. The only thing he failed on me was the AI so we could do the required partial panel stuff.
Long story short, don't over think it. Just treat it like another flight and do your best. I'm sure you'll be fine.

GOOD LUCK!!!
 
LoLPilot said:
Sorry, I really misread your original post and thought it was just the “the Acs tells you how to pass your checkride” bit. All of us at my school are basically told that the interpretation of “prompt corrective action” means according to the FAA you must correct before you exceed. Like the +100 -0 limits for approach altitudes is if you notice at +20 you’re descending and you start correcting but go -20 before you stop descending then you’ve decided you like checkrides so much you’d like to do this one over.
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If the limits are with respect to headings or assigned altitudes then dropping "-20" as you mentioned is not a problem as long as you aren't spacing out. If it's an MDA/DA then if the needle even drops a c*** hair below that value it's an automatic fail and the DPE cannot make exceptions based on you catching it and correcting but happen to overshoot. My instructor told me that if that altitude needle is going to pass your hard limit, make stern positive corrections of pitch and/or power to STOP it.

Also, don't give yourself more work. After my first approach (circle to land), the DPE told me that I seemed to like to give myself extra work. He said that if I knew what approach was next, load it up while I was on the ground. The next one was a local ILS so I punched it in while waiting to takeoff.
 
LoLPilot said:
So I have kicked the can down the road long enough and have finally decided it is time to schedule my IR checkride. Any advice? My CFII I've been working with is leaving to the airlines (congrats!) and I've been shuffled to a couple of CFII's to complete the signoff. No big deal as I know them already and like them. My CFII also finished my PPL and I will miss him dearly - it's really impressive how much of a bond you form with someone after spending a few days' worth of time in a 172 cockpit.

We had our last review flight the other day. Most things went well. I've been getting over a cold so with the balloon head my spatial disorientation was very pronounced. The thing I would have busted on I think was our practice ILS. I was within 200 ft of minimums and I got left of course and just couldn't correct enough. I was trying to nudge it back without manhandling the airplane and when I saw it was getting to the outside of the scale I was just like "**** it going missed for full deflection." He said he saw exactly what was happening and he was like "you were THIS close!" He said I'd actually gotten the correct track exactly parallel to the course and the needle just tracked out as I got closer to the threshold :(. Typically I monitor ILS approaches on the 430W's in the Instrument planes but just in case the DPE would see that and decide that I had a GPS failure I tried to run the approach old school just using the two VOR/ILS systems.

I'm assuming that the same thing holds true on the IR as the private - you will have a colossal mistake and the DPE knows that and if you catch it and apply the correct follow-up and then don't do it again they will view that okay? UGH I don't even wanna do this checkride :D
Click to expand...

I am not sure what you mean by using the 430W to help you with the ILS approaches. If you mean the map (Nav 2) page, then that might be part of your problem. The map display is for the big picture in case you are totally lost. You will not develop the discipline required to track a precise course If you get used to looking at the map page too much. You should be on the Nav 1 page, or the traditional CDI. The analogy I like to use is a new student pilots with a lot of flightsim time. They can maintain altitude and heading much better once they stop focusing on the instrument panel.
 
@LoLPilot I wish I could set you up with my CFII. There would be no way I would be fighting the needle on an ILS approach. She would never let me get two dots off. She would yell in her Czech accent "if you can't do it in VFR how the hell you expect to ever do it in IFR!" That was the kind of instructor I went looking for and that was the kind I found. I wanted that degree of precision.
 
dreyna14 said:
... If it's an MDA/DA then if the needle even drops a c*** hair below that value it's an automatic fail and the DPE cannot make exceptions based on you catching it and correcting but happen to overshoot. My instructor told me that if that altitude needle is going to pass your hard limit, make stern positive corrections of pitch and/or power to STOP it...
DA, decision altitude, like DH, decision height, are altitudes at which the decision to go missed or continue is made. Unlike MDA, you will go below DA or DH because it takes some finite amount of time to transition to a climb when deciding to go missed.
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LoLPilot said:
As we have gotten into the prep phase I’ve been more apt to call something off early and go missed if I don’t like how it’s looking, even if I still have room for error or I’m not at minimums.
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That's a poor practice. Going missed "early" because you don't like "how it's looking" would be a bust on a checkride.

LoLPilot said:
All of us at my school are basically told that the interpretation of “prompt corrective action” means according to the FAA you must correct before you exceed.
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All of the people at your school have poor reading comprehension. That's not what it means. The quote from the ACS is: "grounds for disqualification include...failure to take prompt corrective action when tolerances are exceeded." When, not before. Plus, logically, if the corrective action was required before exceeding the tolerance, then stating as such would be redundant and pointless.

However, busting an MDA on an approach is a more serious infraction than just exceeding tolerances in general.
 
alfadog said:
I passed my IR checkride last year and I will pass on what I learned.

1. Blow him away on the oral if you can. If you impress him on the oral, he's much more likely to look on you favorably on the practical.

2. Don't do things that are stupid and show bad ADM. The airplane I used for my checkride had a routine issue with mag drop being a bit excessive. Usually me and my instructor would fly it anyway. So when I got that high mag drop with the examiner, I was sorely tempted to say oh let's go anyway. That would have been stupid. So I didn't. And had to reschedule with a different airplane.

3. If you foul up, and this applies directly to your post, recover as best you can and carry on. I'm pretty sure he'll let you know if you failed it right then and there and he will offer you a continuance or return to the airport. If he doesn't say anything then you're probably all right. When I was making my first turn onto a DME arc approach, I actually started to turn left rather than right. Probably not the right thing for him to do but the examiner said hey it's a right turn. I think that was because he was already pretty satisfied with how I was doing.
Click to expand...
I really think #1 helped make mine “a piece of cake”. I read, or maybe watched a video online, that suggested printing out your normal weather sources (prog charts, tafs, etc) the morning of the ride, and bring them with you in a folder. I did this, and it blew my dpe away. He seemed to go super easy on me after that.
 
dreyna14 said:
If the limits are with respect to headings or assigned altitudes then dropping "-20" as you mentioned is not a problem as long as you aren't spacing out. If it's an MDA/DA then if the needle even drops a c*** hair below that value it's an automatic fail and the DPE cannot make exceptions based on you catching it and correcting but happen to overshoot. My instructor told me that if that altitude needle is going to pass your hard limit, make stern positive corrections of pitch and/or power to STOP it.
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That’s why I directed the OP to the ACS...so he can figure out which parts of this are blatantly false.
 
I've got mine coming up too. How does a DPE fail a G1000 to simulate partial panel? I have three backup steam gauges and two monitors. Not sure how you can fail the AI when it takes up the whole screen and can swap to the other one lol.
 
RingLaserGyroSandwich said:
I've got mine coming up too. How does a DPE fail a G1000 to simulate partial panel? I have three backup steam gauges and two monitors. Not sure how you can fail the AI when it takes up the whole screen and can swap to the other one lol.
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My G500 was the dimmer switch during training, post-it-notes on the exam.
 
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sarangan said:
I am not sure what you mean by using the 430W to help you with the ILS approaches. If you mean the map (Nav 2) page, then that might be part of your problem. The map display is for the big picture in case you are totally lost. You will not develop the discipline required to track a precise course If you get used to looking at the map page too much. You should be on the Nav 1 page, or the traditional CDI. The analogy I like to use is a new student pilots with a lot of flightsim time. They can maintain altitude and heading much better once they stop focusing on the instrument panel.
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What I'm referring to is the ground track indicator to correct for wind. The 430W will indicate desired track vs. current track and I've found that if I bring that into my instrument scan during ILS approaches I have few issues. I've been told that if the DPE catches you looking at the ground track indicator that he will plop a sticky over it and say your GPS just failed. So I've been trying to run them without using that crutch. I had a pretty stiff crosswind and I have trouble finding that sweet spot between over- and under-correcting to keep the needle centered up. I'm not really having problems with altitudes - it was an example. So for instance the other day I had the ILS good down to about +50 to +100 DA and that's when I got off the course and just couldn't bring the needle back. I got worried that without just hamfisting the controls that I was going to go full deflection, and if I did make some sort of drastic input that I was likely to overcorrect so I went missed. I'm not saying "oh I'm 2 dots off at +500 so I'm going missed," but if I get in a position where I think me trying to salvage the situation will make it worse then I've become more likely to just say screw it than to press on and then talk about it in the debrief.

My problems with precision approaches begin within 150 ft of DA. According to the instructors at my school I am hardly alone in this. Being a teacher myself I try to go through my mental processes and think "why am I messing this up?" I know that the needle gets more sensitive the closer I get to the runway. I know that I need to make small corrections and anticipate the aircraft coming back to center so that I can take out some of my corrective action. At those instances though, the plane and I don't seem to connect and I find that immensely frustrating because the other 99% of the time I can make the airplane do what I want. I call it the excited puppy, like when you are trying to teach a puppy to walk with you and it will walk in the direction you want it to walk, but it will walk three miles for every one of yours because it wants to go everywhere.

EDIT: I guess the other thing that bothers me is the "consistent til it isn't." Like I'll run approach after approach that are good and that I can land. Then I'll go and run one that looks like I have 5 hours of hood time. Case in point, after the ILS we went missed and then did a VOR back home and my instructor failed my vacuum system. That approach went fine. It's easy to say that I was still kind of loopy from being sick, which I was, but I don't really accept that as an excuse. I've been sick before and I'll be sick again and I need to be able to perform like that if I'm going to be an instrument pilot.
 
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I find the heading bug for the HSI very useful instead of looking at just the heading.
Set bug what I think I need to be the heading should be for wind correction. Fly the edges of bug to correct. If keep having to correct adjust bug a few degrees. Goal is to never have to fly out of the bug. Keep adjusting that heading bug so you have a target to fly instead of just looking at the numbers. Chasing the needle will get you in deeper and deeper trouble as you get closer due to the sensitivity.
What can duck you at the end too is wind changes. Does reported AWOS correlate with your correction. If not be ready for a swing as you get lower- my home field one side is notorious for that. You’ll be coming in with a 15-20 degree correction all fat dumb and happy like a boss then get a bit lower and fly it right off course because of a shift.
 
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