Instrument approach circle to land

TimRF79

TimRF79

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Tim
Looking at the AOPA comment on 22G they showed a path for the circle to land drawn in red.
I am thinking in a circle to land the green path would make more sense, as you are going to stay closer to the airport the entire time.

Thoughts?

upload_2021-10-15_15-0-59.png
 
I like AOPA’s depiction. Far less low level maneuvering and it essentially just puts you on a dog-leg for the runway.
 
Not considering published pattern direction here, either are reasonable. It depends on when you see the airport, your airplane, the weather, and all the other factors.

Also, depends on the accuracy of the drawing and scale and such. If on the red line you were able to just go directly to a left base instead of swinging out like shown, it would sure keep you close, and mean less maneuvering and time in the weather. Plus you're probably sitting on the left side of the airplane, making it easier to see the airport (and keep it in sight). Might be my preferred choice.
 
In this kind of scenario, if you wanted to fly the green line instead of the red, are you supposed to advise ATC? Does ATC necessarily have an expectation?
 
If ATC has an expectation, they’ll tell you to “circle east of the airport” or something similar.
 
TimRF79 said:
Looking at the AOPA comment on 22G they showed a path for the circle to land drawn in red.
I am thinking in a circle to land the green path would make more sense, as you are going to stay closer to the airport the entire time.

Thoughts?

View attachment 100970
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If flying in IFR conditions, the red path is better. It keeps the airport continuously in view and minimizes the amount of turns. The green line looks more like a takeoff path. I would not want to be flying away from the airport in low visibility.
 
Who ever the author, their idea is the green path has the pilot establishing downwind for a normal right traffic pattern with 2 - 90° turns for a base-final stabilized approach to landing. The temptation on the red path leaving MDA to soon and a descending 270° left turn. At night the green would be much safer, but who the hell does circle to land at night.
 
Clip4 said:
At night the green would be much safer, but who the hell does circle to land at night.
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Who knows, but lot of charts prohibit circling at night.
 
I did the red version with my cfi in ctl training just a few days ago- keeping the airport in view is a huge help
 
Break out early and the red path looks most straightforward. Given the ceilings with the 22G incident, this seemed the most likely scenario. If breakout is late/lower than expected, you might have to fly the green route, but it it's that low, why not just land on 28?
 
Unless terrain is an issue, I probably opt for red - fewer turns, sooner to land. Since circling minimums are 500 AGL, it’s a nice set up to a base leg rwy 23 by the time you’re at Cat A or B circling radius.
 
I had the same question and think the potential problem with the green path is the ATC uncoordinated Miramar F/A-18 traffic on downwind about 1/4 mile (minimum) to 1/2 mile from the depicted base leg entry.
 
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Every time I've circled at a towered airport, atc gives me instructions on exactly how they want it done.

In a non- towered environment the faa wants you to fly the standard vfr pattern to the extent possible. I didn't look, but assuming 23 is standard left pattern, the red line would be correct.

If I broke out too late to reasonably fly a left hand pattern, there's probably not going to be vfr traffic, and the green line would be perfectly fine.
 
Runway 23 is standard left pattern.
 
Breaking out at MDA and not DH puts you more like a 45-30 degree right turn heading change and then a 90 degree left to final, and the airport environment is always off to your left.
Not as severe as the red line is depicted.
 
Fly it straight in, stop, pedal turn and land into the wind, or hover taxi back to the ramp
 
AA5Bman said:
In this kind of scenario, if you wanted to fly the green line instead of the red, are you supposed to advise ATC? Does ATC necessarily have an expectation?
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If circling to a runway other than the one aligned with the IAP, instructions are required in the clearance.
89984040-1351-44F1-8FC9-B80D81D2712F.jpeg
 
I had something similar on my check ride. It was a non-controlled airport. I basically did the green line. The DPE said the red line was the better choice since I had room. Nothing wrong with the green line but the red line is better.
 
Maybe the point of the discussion is just an exercise…. BUT, why in the world would you do an approach to 28 and circle to land on 23? The breeze would have to be pretty stiff to make a difference wind-wise. I think there is way more risk breaking off an approach to attempt a circle to a cross-runway. Is 28R closed in this example?
 
To slightly hi-jack this thread,

if you are flying the ILS 28R approach but landing 28L. Can you use the ILS DA Minimum Altitude or is it a Circling approach and you have to use the Circling MDA?
upload_2021-10-15_20-56-21.png
 
Arob16 said:
Maybe the point of the discussion is just an exercise…. BUT, why in the world would you do an approach to 28 and circle to land on 23? The breeze would have to be pretty stiff to make a difference wind-wise. I think there is way more risk breaking off an approach to attempt a circle to a cross-runway. Is 28R closed in this example?
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That’s apparently the procedure that was in use.
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/plane-crashes-into-homes-in-san-diego-ca.134695/
 
brcase said:
To slightly hi-jack this thread,

if you are flying the ILS 28R approach but landing 28L. Can you use the ILS DA Minimum Altitude or is it a Circling approach and you have to use the Circling MDA?
View attachment 100987
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It's Circling unless there are published "sidestep" minimums. Would you really want to be switching runways at 200' agl?

Example:
Screenshot_20211015-222546_Drive.jpg

Not very common and only really useful when there's more traffic than the ils runway can handle... so super busy airports like sfo.
 
I get the sidestep/circle for busy airports to off-load some traffic, when the ceilings are high enough for it to be safe. But I don't understand circling at small fields where everything is going RNAV, and it would seem a lot simpler and probably safer to just have separate approaches.
 
Albany Tom said:
I get the sidestep/circle for busy airports to off-load some traffic, when the ceilings are high enough for it to be safe. But I don't understand circling at small fields where everything is going RNAV, and it would seem a lot simpler and probably safer to just have separate approaches.
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I know sometimes like at TEB you have to fly a certain approach the circle because a long straight in to the landing runway would conflict with another airports (in this case Newark's) traffic. Maybe in OPs example you can't fly straight in to rwy 23 because that would conflict with SEE traffic.
 
Albany Tom said:
I get the sidestep/circle for busy airports to off-load some traffic, when the ceilings are high enough for it to be safe. But I don't understand circling at small fields where everything is going RNAV, and it would seem a lot simpler and probably safer to just have separate approaches.
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The faa agrees with you, however there are still some applications.

I frequent a small airport that has an rnav 36, which is just an overlay of their ndb approach. If the wind is out of the south, you have to circle. They are small enough that the cost of developing and maintaining another iap would be prohibitive.

Another is when the approach path to the small airport interferes with a large airport. Many examples of that in Chicago, and I assume near other bravo's as well.

It can also be a time saver if the weather isn't that low and you're coming into an airport down wind. Circle instead of overflying and backtracking 10 miles.

I don't see circling in a light aircraft as all that dangerous. It's flying a vfr pattern; a bit closer to the ground than usual if you're at minimums. If you don't like that, give yourself personal minimums for circling. I agree it's uncomfortable flying at 500' and I'll take a straight in over a circle, but on a 1100' day in a piston single? No big deal.
 
Yeah, more likely the red line. As posted, what’s the weather? How is the wind gonna blow you? I like an early setup to the landing rwy, no late, wrapped up turns.

Of course, this is all after there’s a reason we can’t have the longer runway?
 
Actually, I'd not use either, but probably the red line. There's no need to "circle" at all. I'd turn from about where the red line departs the localizer at an angle that would put me on the left base for 23.
Why on EARTH would you turn AWAY from the airport as the red line depicts just so you could make a greater than 90 degree turn back?

Actually, with the Navion and a runway more than 3000 feet long, I'm probably going to head straight for the numbers. I'm already likely below pattern altitude and the Navion only requires 850 ground roll on landing. I've done that countless times at IAD and still made the first turnoff (4500 down the runway) without even heavy braking.
 
Jim K said:
I don't see circling in a light aircraft as all that dangerous.
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It’s not that bad in a lot of jets, either, if you’ve got some idea what you’re doing. Unfortunately a lot of jet pilots don’t.
 
TimRF79 said:
Looking at the AOPA comment on 22G they showed a path for the circle to land drawn in red.
I am thinking in a circle to land the green path would make more sense, as you are going to stay closer to the airport the entire time.

Thoughts?

View attachment 100970
Click to expand...
The red line reminds me of the path taken by the Lear at TEB. They died. I'm with you, green is the best way with some caveats. You are best able to judge your circling radius from a strange airport when you begin from overhead the middle of the runway. At a tower'd airport that means coordinating the the cross-over with ATC, so they aren't surprised (as you can tell by the other posters most pilots would break it off earlier like the Lear that crashed). I'd keep the target threshold in the right side window until I could pick a landmark 1/2 mile out on the extended centerline as an aiming point for a roll-out on final. At an uncontrolled field you should follow the VFR pattern, if it's VFR. If it's IFR, FAA Chief Counsel's opinion is to do the same. My opinion is you're the final authority as to the operation of the aircraft, the circling areas are TERP'd according to Part 97 and you're conducting an instrument "let down" accordingly, so do what you deem best under the circumstances. FWIW.
 
dtuuri said:
At an uncontrolled field you should follow the VFR pattern, if it's VFR. If it's IFR, FAA Chief Counsel's opinion is to do the same.
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The green line isn't the standard pattern. MYF RWY 23 has left traffic.
 
Given the minimums for Circling, the location of the Missed Approach point, that it could be kinda vague inasmuch you could be using the Timing Table to determine it, you might be kinda close to the airport when you finally see it, and the keeping the Airport to left side so as making it easier to keep it in sight thing, there might be a third option to consider. A left about 230 into the left downwind for 23.
 
luvflyin said:
Given the minimums for Circling, the location of the Missed Approach point, that it could be kinda vague inasmuch you could be using the Timing Table to determine it, you might be kinda close to the airport when you finally see it, and the keeping the Airport to left side so as making it easier to keep it in sight thing, there might be a third option to consider. A left about 230 into the left downwind for 23.
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If a cloud rolls in and you lose sight of 23, wouldn't it be much easier to get back on the missed approach course from the red line than the left downwind?
 
asicer said:
If a cloud rolls in and you lose sight of 23, wouldn't it be much easier to get back on the missed approach course from the red line than the left downwind?
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Losing the airport after beginning the Circle has it's rules. I don't see any of the Circling options discussed so far as particularly more difficult than the others. Start the climb, make initial turn towards the airport and then get established on the Procedure. There's a little 'roll your own' aspect to it no matter which Circling maneuver you started out with.
 
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