Instructors - Have you had to OverPower a Student

Instructors have you ever had to overpower a student?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 21.9%

  • No

    Votes: 20 62.5%

  • No, but I know of someone who did

    Votes: 5 15.6%
  • Total voters
    32
Pinecone

Pinecone

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Pinecone
As the question asks.

Have you had to overpower a student who was doing something that could have lead to a crash?

If it hasn't happened to you, do you know someone who did have to do so?

This is not just adding pressure, but where you had to do more than just a push or pull on a control. But something that took serious effort to counter.

This from the crash discussion at SMO and PHF.
 
One of my instructors described a situation where a student froze up on the controls and entered an unusual attitude. He said he was thinking about jamming this pencil into the guy's eye, since that would make him release the yoke of the aircraft. Apparently the instructor instead karate chopped the frozen student's arms, which forced his hands off the yoke allowing the CFI to recover.

I have to admit I was a tad bet less sanguine about flying with him after I heard that tale.
 
I knew a female CFI and flight school owner who was unable to overpower her much stronger male student, with resultant crash. Both survived, but the resultant lawsuit (the student was a lawyer and lied about the sequence of events) cleaned her out and she lost her business.
 
"Just to let you know, I'm also a former martial arts instructor. If you do anything that jeopardizes our lives, there will be a reaction from me, and it may be painful for you. So don't."

Said in a humorous way, and they all have laughed, but also get the point. Also haven't had a student freeze up. And there's no need to go swinging away at a student. There are plenty of accessible pressure points in flight that will relieve them of the controls that take just a finger or two.
 
EdFred said:
"Just to let you know, I'm also a former martial arts instructor. If you do anything that jeopardizes our lives, there will be a reaction from me, and it may be painful for you. So don't."

Said in a humorous way, and they all have laughed, but also get the point. Also haven't had a student freeze up. And there's no need to go swinging away at a student. There are plenty of accessible pressure points in flight that will relieve them of the controls that take just a finger or two.
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Or thumb.......

 
No, never. Luckily.

I read elsewhere that covering a learner pilot's eyes when they're under stress will get their hands off of the yoke -- I have that one in my back pocket, I thought it was novel and less mess than a pencil in the eye (yuck haha wtf)

Before that I assumed I would improvise some chop-socky to the throat or arms as described above :D I am not sure if it would have been successful or not.
 
I always worry about kids grabbing the yoke and/or trying something during Young Eagles flights. I remind them not to touch anything unless I ask them to, and so far, not one inkling of it happening. Most are having a great time just looking around. The scared ones typically ask for the back seat.
I'm not above smacking hands or anything else needed though.

But from the other side, I have had a CFI fight me on the yoke/stick without ever saying a word...which is just stupid.
Was training in an RV-7A, at about 300hrs so not as a new student. Coming in to land with a direct crosswind of about 15 kt.
Had two previous landings, on which the CFI announced he was impressed. The third looked the same to me.. but the stick just started going crazy, so I of course tried to stop it not knowing what was happening. Once I realized, I just let go...and he banged it down. Not sure what happened in his mind, but I saw no danger, until he silently grabbed the stick and we were fighting each other. Crazy for a CFI not to announce taking control. Or at the very least, say let's go around. I can see where it would definitely cause an accident.
 
I cast a “no” vote… but I’ve been seriously involved in LOTS of situations. Basically yanked the controls out of their hands.

So… don’t think that really counts. But it dawns on me, had I not been able to do that, I’d have crashed. No doubt. None stand out as likely to perish events, except for one jet training flight.

Pretty much all on takeoff and landing, mostly landing.
 
I, as a student, had to, uh, startle my instructor into submission one time. No blows or anything. He was early 20s and temporarily locked up. Smoke coming out of the dash at an alarming rate- nbd after I turned off electric
 
Nope. Assisted when they didn’t use enough force or snatched the controls to save the aircraft, but never had anyone freeze up.
 
Didn't any of you ever consider using "a briefing? how about effective communication?" :rolleyes:
 
I’ve had to briskly push the nose down and stomp on the rudder, but never had to attack the student. Covering their eyes is always in my back pocket of tools.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Tandem is twice the fun…
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I know two people who had issues.

One was my Dad which instructing in SNJs for the Navy. Student froze in a spin. The stick in the back seat is removeable. He removed it and bashed the student in the head, put is back in and recovered.

The other was a friend of mine. A youngish student, well on the way in training, one day straight armed the yoke against the panel in a Tomahawk. Locked their elbows. My friend finally chopped down on their elbows and broke the lock, but they were past the vertical in an outside loop. Luckily I had given him some aerobatic and serious unusual attitude training and he rolled, then pulled, and recovered at less than 100 feet.
 
I've heard of fire extinguishers being used...
 
In 2000ish hours of dual given I’ve never had a situation that required more than blocking a control input so far. Providing primary or advanced training in the typical tri gear training landplane is fairly low risk. I have had a few closer calls in conventional gear airplanes and twins but nothing even close to wrecking an airplane. Seaplane training is a little higher risk but I feel that anything in an airplane is pretty tame compared to the trouble you could find yourself in giving dual in a helicopter.
 
My primary instructor during my private pilot training was a guy about 6'2", 210 pounds, and pretty fit. We could only fly a C152 together on very cold days. No issues there.

I had a checkride and some additional flying with a rather petite female instructor. Our first time in the cockpit, before engine start, she looked at me and gave me the "if you freeze on the controls I will break your arm if I have to" lecture in 2-3 sentences. Wow. Talk about managing expectations and clear communication!

Both were great instructors and passionate aviators. The woman was doing initial flight training for USAF Academy students, last I heard.
 
I am not an instructor but i think a swift karate chop to the throat would result in regaining control of the aeroplane!
 
Fortunately, in over 4000 hours of dual given, I’ve never had a situation like that.
 
ASI just released a video about that crash with the young female cfi. McSpadden has a couple of recommendations from SAFE. They suggested covering the student's eyes, which apparently induces a natural reaction to reach up to uncover them. They also showed that it's pretty easy to get your foot on the yoke crossbar behind the panel, and use your legs to easily overpower the hands of a locked up student.
 
Jim K said:
ASI just released a video about that crash with the young female cfi. McSpadden has a couple of recommendations from SAFE. They suggested covering the student's eyes, which apparently induces a natural reaction to reach up to uncover them. They also showed that it's pretty easy to get your foot on the yoke crossbar behind the panel, and use your legs to easily overpower the hands of a locked up student.
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But at least than 100' of altitude and a couple of seconds to react and try to take control, do you have the time to cover their eyes or try and get your foot on the crossbar?

My vote is a dog e-collar.
 
Nothing even remotely close during my instruction days.
 
Racerx said:
But at least than 100' of altitude and a couple of seconds to react and try to take control, do you have the time to cover their eyes or try and get your foot on the crossbar?

My vote is a dog e-collar.
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Forgot to mention; he said one of the instructors claimed to have used the crossbar trick 3x. That sounds a bit spurious to me, but I'm not a cfi, and frankly those of you who've met me know that not being able to overpower a student would be low on my list of worries.

In the short video clip, it looked like sticking your foot up there might be the quickest resolution if you've practiced it, and getting the nose down is really the lifesaving maneuver 9 times out of 10.
 
So my instructor never had to overpower me... But during my very first discovery flight my CFI took his eyes off me ever-so-briefly as he had me work through the checklist. He asked me to set the parking brake and pointed to its general area as he looked out the window (remos has a handbrake with a little knob you turn right next to it). So I did that.

... Except it wasn't the parking brake at all. It was the emergency fuel shutoff. Because the knobs are identical just separated by about 8". Luckily the engine choked and died at the end of run-up.
He told me he'd have shot me if we'd tried to take off like that. So I'd say that kind of like having to overpower me?

And THAT is how I learned the importance of ATTENTION TO DETAIL on my very first flight :eek:.

upload_2022-10-11_22-43-47.png
 
I went up with my CFI today (I'm still working on my private, but finally making some progress). It was really gusty, and I told him that, if he grabbed the controls, he'd better be ready because they would be all his. (Another CFI and student had come into the office just before I left, and the CFI said he'd had to grab the controls a few times because the gusts tossed them sideways.)
One of my former instructors had had a student fight him for the controls, and evidently the student was pretty strong. The instructor nearly quit teaching as a result. Kinda sad because he was a really good teacher. I started working with him after this incident. I hope he'll keep teaching others.
 
No. I've had situations where a client was about to put us into an unintentional spin, but responded to my verbal command.

BTW, this is one reason I prefer the old school, "my airplane/your airplane" to the FAA's wordy "I have the flight controls/you have the flight controls" mantra. Sure, the latter is fine for casually exchanging the controls and establishing who is flying the aircraft at a given time, but in an abnormal, potentially emergency situation I think, "MY AIRPLANE" in a sharp commanding voice is more effective in eliciting the correct response.
 
EdFred said:
That doesn't mean anything when someone goes full panic mode. Brain shuts down, and doesn't matter what was said before hand.

Same as fight or flight.
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You are absolutely correct! I brought that up and put it in quotations (it's part of an actual quote from another thread) to highlight it and show the absurdity of it.

Certainly instructors will explain to their students the handoff commands for control of the aircraft but it must be understood that as good an answer as that is, that there may be times when it isn't effective because the student can't hear as they are in freak mode and not listening to reason.
 
Jim K said:
ASI just released a video about that crash with the young female cfi. McSpadden has a couple of recommendations from SAFE. They suggested covering the student's eyes, which apparently induces a natural reaction to reach up to uncover them. They also showed that it's pretty easy to get your foot on the yoke crossbar behind the panel, and use your legs to easily overpower the hands of a locked up student.
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just can’t imagine the yoke and components behind the panel built to support that kind of pressure.
 
Take your left hand, place your hand over the eyes of the student.
 
In that situation you must make best use of whatever time you might have.

C1CAC1F9-80DC-4635-9145-F7325523D830.jpeg
 
Dana said:
I knew a female CFI and flight school owner who was unable to overpower her much stronger male student, with resultant crash. Both survived, but the resultant lawsuit (the student was a lawyer and lied about the sequence of events) cleaned her out and she lost her business.
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Wow, that sounds absolutely awful. Glad both were okay, but that student sounds like a terrible person. Why lie about what happened and ruin her business? What a horrible thing for that student to do.
 
Saw something like this on Saturday.

@Pilawt and I were waiting for our takeoff clearance while a 172 came in to land at GYR.

Just before the wheels touched the student* received a go-around instruction. We watched the 172 point about as straight-up as it could. As the pending stall was developing, the nose got brought forward and at the same time the flaps fully retracted.

We both thought we were going to be witness to a pretty bad event. It worked out but not with a lot of margin.

<*> we each presume it was a student. And no, I am not using the word learner. One of those reasons being, I have no evidence that the student is learning. ;-)
 
Rgbeard said:
We both thought we were going to be witness to a pretty bad event. It worked out but not with a lot of margin.
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Our hearts were in our throats for a few seconds there. And where we were holding short of the runway on an intersecting taxiway, we were well within range of where a spinning 172 could impact ...
 
The airplane I soloed in, with an instructor I knew. The person wanted to commit suicide. Left a note and all. Took a good instructor with him. Some years later, i was instructing. Guy walked in the door, and wanted to restart his training. I should have been the instructor, but had to go to my normal job. So i gave him to another instructor who was new and needed students. He committed suicide and took the new kid with him. I carried a mag light, and had no qualms of breaking somebodies hands. Until you know the student you protect yourself.
 
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