Insight requested

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MikeLima

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MikeLima
I am struggling with a decision and I'm hoping by posting on here someone will say something that pushes me into actually making one.

My first issue: Started with my first lesson 1st week of December with the only CFI within the reasonable driving distance (think two or more hours). As I sit here today, despite my best efforts to schedule everything possible, I am at 9 hours. Slightly more than 1 hour per week average, however, that time has been split up significantly. I don't have my log book available but I had three hours one week and I know I've had a couple of weeks without any flying. CFI canceled a couple and weather hit us once but most of the issue is just trying to find time where our availability matches.

Second issue: CFI is very pleasant and likeable but I'm not sure if I'm getting enough out of his style of teaching. Either I'm really sharp and don't need much coaching or he just isn't the kind of guy who says much. (I suspect the latter). Because he's not saying much, I'm not sure what I need to be doing to learn how to fly and when I ask him for feedback I get something along the lines of, "your doing fine." Typical lesson goes something like this: I preflight the plane. We take off. He says: "Let's go over that way toward that (whatever) and get up to (whatever altitude). Okay, do a steep turn. Okay, do a steep turn the other way. Okay. Let's do some s-turns over that road. Head back to the airport. " Okay, okay. I admit that is an exaggeration but not by a whole lot. I've had some trouble with landings (driving the plane to the ground seems like a bad thing and my brain has been screwing with me), and I've had some trouble figuring out what I need to be doing and what I was doing wrong. He didn't have a whole lot of helpful information to give me. I'm sure that it's just his style, but I'm thinking I'd be more comfortable with someone telling me, "Man you really screwed that one up by over rotating/rotating to soon/missing the turn to final" or whatever. There are lots of things we haven't covered yet about the systems of the a/c (like leaning or how to actually operate the radio - which I know but he doesn't know I know) but I suspect this may just be his style to cover that stuff after I am comfortable with doing the basic flying of the airplane.

Third issue (and the most troubling for me): The rental plane is a Cessna 150. I'm a little cramped lengthwise but I think I can make that work. However, I'm not sure how I feel about the trustworthiness of the aircraft because of some minor issues (and one that doesn't seem quite so minor). However, I may just be too particular. Obviously I'd like to be training in a brand new 172 but I realize that's not happening anywhere (especially at the cheap rate I'm paying now). The minor issues are: (1) left tank fuel gauge reads empty when it's full until you burn it down to about 3/4 tank (which isn't that annoying but which I believe is not following the reg); (2) magnetic compass frequently is way off - I think it's dragging because it will adjust but not to the correct heading; and wing fuel sump drain gets stuck open frequently and I spend five minutes trying to get it to seat without leaking. The thing that seems major to me is that the motor occasionally quits when I pull it back to idle. (Hasn't happened in the air and probably won't while I'm flying it cause I now have an aversion to pulling all the power out while in the air). Owner/mech. says he wants to wait until it warms up to see of the cold weather is what is causing it (which, even though I have limited mechanical ability, I doubt because it has done it even while in taxi at the end of the lesson).

Okay. With all that being said, I want to get my license as cheaply as possible as fast as possible and be as safe as possible. Should I (a) quit whining because most of this stuff is within the range of normal and just have some serious talks with CFI and make this work; or (b) just cut my losses now and find some other way to go?

To be honest, I'm the kind of guy that usually finds an alternative source as soon as I believe something can't be fixed. I think I can make this situation some better, but I don't think it can be fixed altogether. (Of course, I leave room for the possibility that all of this is normal type stuff and that's what you guys are going to say.) In this instance, I think I'm letting the lack of available alternatives interfere with my need to make a decision and live with it.

What do you think? ( my apologies for the length)
 
Perhaps first have a discussion with him explaining that you'd like better feedback. See where that goes.
 
Go somewhere where the weather is good and take a two week accelerated course. Or whatever is available.
 
Is your CFI using a syllabus? Why not? You should know in advance what today's lesson will be because he told you what to study at the end of the last lesson. Do you have a copy of the PTS? That is the standard against what "doing fine" is measured...although you are so low time that expecting PTS performance is a dream. But PTS is the goal, and you need to know where the goal line is at all times during the game. You should have homework assigned for each lesson, and you should get ground training before each lesson (it's the law...61.105(a)). You are not being well-served by this instructor, based on the one side of the story that we have heard.

Bob Gardner
 
Bob:

He is using a syllabus. I've never read it. It's a small book he pulls out at the end of the lesson and says, "ok, next time we'll be doing ____."

And when he says what's next on the list, I read and research myself silly. So I always go to the lesson thinking I "know" how to do a maneuver but that isn't nearly the same as actually doing the maneuver. And, I do hit the pts standards, not because he tells me, but because I've researched it before hand. (except it took me to the second time on stalls because the first time we did them I hadn't looked up the standards and so didn't know what to do - and the direction was a little too sparse for me to figure it out. )

And that's the issue for me: if I know more stuff than he's telling me to know, what is the stuff that he's not telling me that I should know that I don't know?
 
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Mike, I've had that kind of instructor before. Very likeable, an excellent pilot, but no real "agenda". After a few lessons, I moved on.

If it helps, I went through no less than 10 instructors between my PPL and Instrument rating. TEN. I had to deal with scheduling problems, role changes, vacations, jobs, etc.

Would it have been good to have just one? Absolutely, but it didn't work out like that.

As for the plane, I would not be getting into something with a malfunctioning...anything. Unless that malfunctioning something was well documented, placarded and non-essential for flight. Fuel gauges are NOT one of those things.

The school I flew with had a book for squawks. If you squawked something, the plane was unflyable until the squawk was fixed. Afternoon booked with lessons and bad fuel gauge? Guess what? Afternoon lessons are all cancelled until it's fixed.

There's the cheap way, and then there's the right way to do things. Sometimes those meet, sometimes not.

First step might be to talk with your CFI and express your concerns to them. If nothing changes, then my advice, look at finding another flight school or CFI. Heck you could really do it now just to get a comparison. I find it hard to believe there's only 1 guy within 2 hours of you, unless you are REALLY out in the middle of nowhere and even then, there should still be more than that.

Do not do an accelerated anything for your PPL. Some may disagree, but the PPL is really where you need to take your time and learn the basics of flying. Accelerated programs may train you to pass the exam, but then you miss out on all the cool stuff.
 
Drive your training how you want it. If you're not using a syllabus suggest one to your CFI and see what he things. Spend time outside of training to self study and use your CFI as a litmus of your knowledge. Also understand they're not the end all be all and you might read different information than what he thinks. My CFI (Who I'm related to) and I would discuss/debate all kinds of things... flow checks vs checklists, shock cooling, certain ATC items.

In terms of trying to do it as 'cheap' as possible understand there's tradeoffs in that. I could of done all my PPL training in a 152 but chose not to because I'm 200 with really broad shoulders and even doing spin training in one with a CFI who weights maybe 145 it was extremely cramped. So you will have to make some concessions, maybe flying that questionable 152 is one of them.

If you're worried about he safety then I wouldn't fly in it. I actually switched from renting a plane 25 mins away to one almost an hour a way because I was concerned for my safety. To me it was worth the time to drive, plus I only had about 15 more hours of training left.
 
Cameron:

Maybe there is another CFI around, but I (and several others) haven't been able to find him/her. Found another one 1 hour away but he's not giving lessons cause he's flying for somebody. Can do sport 1.5 hours away but not ppl. Next closest I know for sure is two hours and I don't know availability... then 2.5 hours away are several options.

Even more frustrating, I was once neighbors with a gentleman for ten years who had a runway on his farm, a plane and was a CFI. He offered many times to give me lessons for expenses and I was always too busy. I should be beat.
 
OkieAviator:

Yeah, the problems with the plane haven't really scared me as of yet because the CFI is a very skilled pilot of many years of experience, we fly in an area where you could make an emergency landing about anywhere, and I'm sure he would have no problems delivering us safely to the ground. However, I'm soon to be soloing the thing and I'm not so comfortable with my own ability to make an emergency landing.
 
MikeLima said:
OkieAviator:

Yeah, the problems with the plane haven't really scared me as of yet because the CFI is a very skilled pilot of many years of experience, we fly in an area where you could make an emergency landing about anywhere, and I'm sure he would have no problems delivering us safely to the ground. However, I'm soon to be soloing the thing and I'm not so comfortable with my own ability to make an emergency landing.
Click to expand...

Oklahoma has the same make up with the ability to land in 1 of 20,000 fields around here. I did 2 solo's in the questionable 172 that I started my training in, and 1 in the 152. The mechanical issues were things like flaps not retracting, a mag failing and non-functioning gas gauge. For the most part if it's listed in 91.205 and it's not working I'm not going to fly it. So if you're having those issues I would find another plane.

It's unrealistic to have a plane in 'perfect' working order, squawks are common and I've flown with bulbs out (daytime), EGT gauge not working and I'm sure some other items. Those aren't a big deal... single mag, that's a big deal.
 
Mike:

No, I haven't been given a copy of it.

I obviously don't know why not.

I'm asking for some insight so please feel free to tell me what I need to know. I assume from the questions that in your opinion I should have been given a copy of it and I can see where that would fit in along with my feeling that I'm not getting much direction.
 
Perhaps you just need to have a chat with your instructor to go over your concerns. Ask for a bit of ground before each time, even if it's just 5 minutes to go over the procedures and answer any questions you may have from your reading. And ask for a debriefing session at the end of each flight. You seem to need more analysis than what your CFI thinks you need. Ask for a copy of his syllabus, knowing that most syllabi are not strictly followed lesson by lesson but just provide general guidance, at least from my very limited experience with a few CFIs. I think you'll be able to work things out with this CFI.

The engine sounds scary. You'll be doing a lot of engine out maneuvers. I'd be nervous if it quits every time. In my flying club, this issue would clearly ground the airplane.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Thank you all for your comments.

Talked with cfi yesterday and think we are more on the same page now. It seems we were both making some assumptions that were not entirely true.
Hopefully we are on track now.

Should have just addressed this a few lessons ago but I tend to be very blunt which alienates some people and without many other options for instruction I was hesitant to lose this one. Very uncharacteristic of me not to address a problem immediately.

I will just have to keep an eye in the plane issue until I have alternatives.
 
The no syllabus thing disturbs me.

Something about being on the same page.

Good luck finishing up!
 
Kelvin:

Me not having the syllabus is not a problem for me. I understand that is an issue for some people but it isn't for me.
 
The tank gauge wouldn't bother me. It either reads correctly or it's full visually verified as part of the pre-flight. Compass is annoying but not a deal breaker. I would tap it on the ground and set the vertical heading indicator. The cutting off when pulled to idle I wouldn't be comfortable with.

Landings you will get and will become easy. Trim on final so you don't have to put so much effort into driving it down. You have to drive it down, that's where the runway is. :D I, too, had a difficult time with landings. My problem turned out to be distorted depth perception due to me keeping reading glasses on (so I could see instruments clearly). My distance vision was in focus too so I didn't initially realize my depth perception was off. Your cfi and everyone else can tell you what and how to do landings but until what you see feels right it is impossible to trust it.

Once I took the readers off and the landing clicked for the 1st time, I got it and kept it. The day it fell into place I did 3 bad landings then #4 clicked for me. Landing 4 through 16 were very good with the last 6 being at night. I now have almost 30 un-assisted landings in a row. When you get it (soon) you will wonder what was so difficult. Keep at it. It will be sudden.

I'm not saying every landing has been textbook. Even after you get it you may catch a gust or float some. When that happens you just nose down for an instant then re-establish the settling. I've caught a gust or floated some but when I sit her down it's pretty gently. I might get a slight bounce once in a while but it's not the harsh bounce I was getting earlier in my training.

It's just repetition, hang in there.

Once I got the landings I was confident and actually solo'd with a 5 kt crosswind component. We talked about it and I told my cfi I could do this. He knew I could so he let me solo. Of those 3 landings one was textbook perfect, one I floated then sat down gently, and one I had a slight bounce.

It's an awesome feeling, keep at it and good luck.
 
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2:

i know what you mean about landings just clicking at some point... Lesson before last the first several were the same as always: terrible. Then, somehow, one worked. Then the next was easier... And the next. And the next. Now I can't figure out how I was missing so badly before. Like you, that doesn't mean they are all perfect.... But compared to before they are winners.
 
Where in Missouri are you? Once we know that, someone might have suggestions for other CFI's to talk too.
 
MikeLima said:
Kelvin:

Me not having the syllabus is not a problem for me. I understand that is an issue for some people but it isn't for me.
Click to expand...

I picked my own syllabus for both my PPL and IR training. The instructors I worked with typically liked to just go off the cuff on teaching but a syllabus ensures you have at least somewhat of a plan for your learning. If you're relying 100% on what your Instructor verbally tells you then you'll prolong training.

You can download plenty of free ones online and they're typically well thought out and hit every aspect you should be covering. If you reference it and find for example you didn't cover emergency descents, then you can bring it up. CFI's have more than 1 student and often will miss things thinking they covered it before. A syllabus helps prevent that.
 
Caramon13 said:
Mike, I've had that kind of instructor before. Very likeable, an excellent pilot, but no real "agenda". After a few lessons, I moved on.

If it helps, I went through no less than 10 instructors between my PPL and Instrument rating. TEN. I had to deal with scheduling problems, role changes, vacations, jobs, etc.

Would it have been good to have just one? Absolutely, but it didn't work out like that.

As for the plane, I would not be getting into something with a malfunctioning...anything. Unless that malfunctioning something was well documented, placarded and non-essential for flight. Fuel gauges are NOT one of those things.

The school I flew with had a book for squawks. If you squawked something, the plane was unflyable until the squawk was fixed. Afternoon booked with lessons and bad fuel gauge? Guess what? Afternoon lessons are all cancelled until it's fixed.

There's the cheap way, and then there's the right way to do things. Sometimes those meet, sometimes not.

First step might be to talk with your CFI and express your concerns to them. If nothing changes, then my advice, look at finding another flight school or CFI. Heck you could really do it now just to get a comparison. I find it hard to believe there's only 1 guy within 2 hours of you, unless you are REALLY out in the middle of nowhere and even then, there should still be more than that.

Do not do an accelerated anything for your PPL. Some may disagree, but the PPL is really where you need to take your time and learn the basics of flying. Accelerated programs may train you to pass the exam, but then you miss out on all the cool stuff.
Click to expand...

So you don't fly piston cessnas? Because unless they have aftermarket fuel instruments, the OEM Cessna fuel gauges are crap and if you're relying on a gauge for quantity you already failed at how to manage fuel.

Nothing really sounds out of place with his training, the only issue Id have is he isn't flying enough, should be doing atleast 2 flights a week at 1.5hrs each.

Also as far as the C150 vs a C172, you're better off in a 150, it'll make you a better pilot.


Get some more lessons in and have fun!


OkieAviator said:
I picked my own syllabus for both my PPL and IR training. The instructors I worked with typically liked to just go off the cuff on teaching but a syllabus ensures you have at least somewhat of a plan for your learning. If you're relying 100% on what your Instructor verbally tells you then you'll prolong training.

You can download plenty of free ones online and they're typically well thought out and hit every aspect you should be covering. If you reference it and find for example you didn't cover emergency descents, then you can bring it up. CFI's have more than 1 student and often will miss things thinking they covered it before. A syllabus helps prevent that.
Click to expand...

As a non PPL and then as a VFRA only pilot you picked out your own PPL and IFR syllabus? I'm wouldn't be too keen on that idea as a CFI, how on earth does my student know the best way to become a PPL when he isn't a CFI or even a PPL. Just seems odd.
 
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If the engine dies when you pull power to idle, it's probably leaned properly for taxi. Enrich it just slightly when it stumbles.

I'd take a well-worn 150 over a brand-new 172 as a trainer any day. No need for fancy paint, leather seats, glass panel and $50 an hour more to learn the basics.
 
Again, thanks for all the input. I appreciate all the comments and have put them all in the hopper and madey decision to continue where I am for the time being with some adjustments.

I agree I need to fly more often. Soloed yesterday so I will be flying more frequently now that I don't have to wait for our schedules to match.

I'm curious: why is it a 150 makes a better trainer? I feel pretty cramped in it (I'm 6'3") but other than that, I do enjoy flying it but I don't have anything to compare it to.

Thanks
 
MikeLima said:
Again, thanks for all the input. I appreciate all the comments and have put them all in the hopper and madey decision to continue where I am for the time being with some adjustments.

I agree I need to fly more often. Soloed yesterday so I will be flying more frequently now that I don't have to wait for our schedules to match.

I'm curious: why is it a 150 makes a better trainer? I feel pretty cramped in it (I'm 6'3") but other than that, I do enjoy flying it but I don't have anything to compare it to.

Thanks
Click to expand...


Congrats and sounds like you're making a good decision.

The 150 is better because it's more telling of bad inputs, cheaper per hour, so more flight time per $, also it's better for spin training, which you should do.
 
ateamer said:
If the engine dies when you pull power to idle, it's probably leaned properly for taxi. Enrich it just slightly when it stumbles.
Click to expand...

Say again? That makes no sense. Your mixture has nothing to do with the idler circuit. People will often say it's leaned properly for taxi when advancing the throttle week make it stumble, not when you go idle and the red onion becomes irrelevant.
 
You're right. I really should have run the Brain Engagement checklist prior to typing...

Mind----------------------FULL AWAKE
Coffee--------------------TWO CUPS
Thought process--------ENGAGED
Skin-----------------------THICK
 
James331 said:
As a non PPL and then as a VFRA only pilot you picked out your own PPL and IFR syllabus? I'm wouldn't be too keen on that idea as a CFI, how on earth does my student know the best way to become a PPL when he isn't a CFI or even a PPL. Just seems odd.
Click to expand...


Yes- With my PPL CFI who was used to teaching at a 141 school, he said we could use a version of their syllabus or I could find one online and we could work off of that. Think his follow on comment was they're all the same... Since I didn't have the ground school experience that the 141 students had I ended up with one from AOPA which was broken into 21 lessons. This provided the framework for my training, reading, studying ect. There were obvious times we deviated but all around worked great.

For Instrument training I went with a different CFII, one that was extremely experienced and had close to 50 years of flying under his belt. He said they typically use a syllabus from ASA but I could use another one if I liked it better. I think I used the ASA one, it was broken into 5 sections... but again deviated from it a bit and seemed to do sections 1-3 all concurrently. Again using it as a framework though I was able to read/self study and practice procedures on my home flight sim set up. So at the end of training we had hit every item on the syllabus and was able to pass my checkride.
 
ateamer said:
You're right. I really should have run the Brain Engagement checklist prior to typing...

Mind----------------------FULL AWAKE
Coffee--------------------TWO CUPS
Thought process--------ENGAGED
Skin-----------------------THICK
Click to expand...
I know that feeling well ;-)
 
A 150 does NOT make a better trainer if you don't fit. I'm also 6'3" and a 150 results in a sore shoulder pretty quickly unless I fly with the window open. I can't sit straight in one, so I also have a tendency to fly in a left slip that I don't have in any other aircraft. Also, W&B for a big guy plus instructor plus fuel reserves makes for unacceptably short flights, and the extra fuel stops will eat all the cost savings.
 
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