induction service vs. seafoam diy?

GeorgeC

GeorgeC

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GeorgeC
My car went in for its 60k scheduled maint recently. They said they observed some carbon buildup and recommended an induction service next time, to the tune of a few benjamins. I assume this involves a fuel additive and hosing some sort of solvent into the intake while the engine is running. I think they use BG products.

I have not observed any changes in mileage or driveability. Is it worth looking/borescoping to find the alleged buildup? If it's just a few cans of stuff I can buy at autozone, is there any reason I shouldn't just do it myself?
 
GeorgeC said:
My car went in for its 60k scheduled maint recently. They said they observed some carbon buildup and recommended an induction service next time, to the tune of a few benjamins. I assume this involves a fuel additive and hosing some sort of solvent into the intake while the engine is running. I think they use BG products.

I have not observed any changes in mileage or driveability. Is it worth looking/borescoping to find the alleged buildup? If it's just a few cans of stuff I can buy at autozone, is there any reason I shouldn't just do it myself?
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product-original-221.png

Nah, you don't need all that garbage...just pour a can or two of ^^^ this stuff in there, and your engine will be running like a top!
 
if it is a ford v6 product it is for real.
 
They observed carbon buildup in the intake? How? I can usually only see that if I remove the intake manifold.

If Seafoam worked as described, it would be running all kinds of crap through your exhaust valves. Not a good thing, if it were true.

If there is no change in mileage or driveability, your car works. They should at least be able to point to some test like a vacuum result at high throttle as evidence that there is actually a problem. Barring that, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
It's a ripoff service. Modern detergent fuels are self cleaning anyway. If you have a carbon buildup, it's a problem that requires a different fix.
 
Depends on the car but most often it's hogwash.

My car is direct injected and has the PCV ventilation recycle to the intake. This results in some buildup on the intake valves that might warrant a walnut shell cleaning of the valves. However, it's rarely a problem and can only be seen if you pull the intake manifold and inspect with a borescope.

Fuel injector cleaner wouldn't clean the intake valves at all because it's direct injected.

Is carbon on the valves a bad thing? Only if it causes a problem. Most of the time it won't.
 
hotprops said:
if it is a ford v6 product it is for real.
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It's how they routed the PCV/emissions crap back into the intake manifold.

MAKG1 said:
Only if the intake manifold is leaking oil into vacuum.
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See above. Exhaust gasses pumped straight into the intake without any filtering is a problem. Emissions qualification junk engineering.

Sac Arrow said:
It's a ripoff service. Modern detergent fuels are self cleaning anyway. If you have a carbon buildup, it's a problem that requires a different fix.
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Generally.

There's a LOT of data that the EcoBoosts are all suffering from intake crap buildup and Ford engineering has no officially allowed "fix" for it other than removal of the head because any detergents or cleaners run through the thing will end up destroying the turbo. They've got a pile of tech bulletins saying absolutely not to do cleaning service or the turbo warranty is void immediately.

There's a 20+ year Ford tech who has some videos on it all on YT. He's pretty ****ed. Enough to have done the head work on his own Explorer under warranty and then selling the thing before the warranty ran out and buying a Dodge.

Thats a pretty big deal considering the discount he gets on his own company's products. He's documented numerous phone calls to Ford engineering asking for a real fix not an engine tear down, and they've got nothing.

Those who feel naughty, have been simply removing the EGR tube and capping it off and tricking the computer to think its all still there. The only real permanent design fix until Ford makes a filter system for the EGR system that'll trap the worst of the crud.

The problem happens to the inner two cylinders nearest the EGR tube, of course. Shows up as intermittent misfire codes on those cylinders usually and various codes set that aren't directly related. Crud buildup on the intake valves confuses the hell out of the onboard electronics.
 
hockeyrcks9901 said:
Depends on the car but most often it's hogwash.

My car is direct injected and has the PCV ventilation recycle to the intake. This results in some buildup on the intake valves that might warrant a walnut shell cleaning of the valves. However, it's rarely a problem and can only be seen if you pull the intake manifold and inspect with a borescope.

Fuel injector cleaner wouldn't clean the intake valves at all because it's direct injected.

Is carbon on the valves a bad thing? Only if it causes a problem. Most of the time it won't.
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My car's PCV ports in just upstream of the throttle body butterfly. It has gummed up the butterfly several times. I found that running full synthetic oil has alleviated that. I've found Star Tron Enzyme Fuel Treatment to work very well.
 
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denverpilot said:
It's how they routed the PCV/emissions crap back into the intake manifold.



See above. Exhaust gasses pumped straight into the intake without any filtering is a problem. Emissions qualification junk engineering.



Generally.

There's a LOT of data that the EcoBoosts are all suffering from intake crap buildup and Ford engineering has no officially allowed "fix" for it other than removal of the head because any detergents or cleaners run through the thing will end up destroying the turbo. They've got a pile of tech bulletins saying absolutely not to do cleaning service or the turbo warranty is void immediately.

There's a 20+ year Ford tech who has some videos on it all on YT. He's pretty ****ed. Enough to have done the head work on his own Explorer under warranty and then selling the thing before the warranty ran out and buying a Dodge.

Thats a pretty big deal considering the discount he gets on his own company's products. He's documented numerous phone calls to Ford engineering asking for a real fix not an engine tear down, and they've got nothing.

Those who feel naughty, have been simply removing the EGR tube and capping it off and tricking the computer to think its all still there. The only real permanent design fix until Ford makes a filter system for the EGR system that'll trap the worst of the crud.

The problem happens to the inner two cylinders nearest the EGR tube, of course. Shows up as intermittent misfire codes on those cylinders usually and various codes set that aren't directly related. Crud buildup on the intake valves confuses the hell out of the onboard electronics.
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Nate, you seem to be confusing PCV and EGR.

Not all Ford V-engines have EGR. They do all have PCV (since about 1970). And the PCV doesn't suck crap into the manifold unless there is excessive blow-by pressurizing the crankcase.

If you've ever torn one of these down, the "crap" sits right on top of the intake valves. Which means it's almost certainly coming through the valve guides. No fix for that short of replacing them in a major valve job.
 
denverpilot said:
There's a LOT of data that the EcoBoosts are all suffering from intake crap buildup and Ford engineering has no officially allowed "fix" for it other than removal of the head because any detergents or cleaners run through the thing will end up destroying the turbo. They've got a pile of tech bulletins saying absolutely not to do cleaning service or the turbo warranty is void immediately.

There's a 20+ year Ford tech who has some videos on it all on YT. He's pretty ****ed. Enough to have done the head work on his own Explorer under warranty and then selling the thing before the warranty ran out and buying a Dodge.

Thats a pretty big deal considering the discount he gets on his own company's products. He's documented numerous phone calls to Ford engineering asking for a real fix not an engine tear down, and they've got nothing.

Those who feel naughty, have been simply removing the EGR tube and capping it off and tricking the computer to think its all still there. The only real permanent design fix until Ford makes a filter system for the EGR system that'll trap the worst of the crud.

The problem happens to the inner two cylinders nearest the EGR tube, of course. Shows up as intermittent misfire codes on those cylinders usually and various codes set that aren't directly related. Crud buildup on the intake valves confuses the hell out of the onboard electronics.
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Might installing a catch can on the PCV line help? My understanding is that carbon from an EGR system will blow through and burn off much more easily without the oil vapors from the PCV system mixed in to gunk things up.

Rich
 
As for Seafoam, I've used it a few times in a non-label way (piston soak) to clean up cylinders in various Saturns that I've owned over the years when they got carboned-up due to the poor oil ring design. I can say with confidence that Seafoam does in fact break down carbon when used in that way. It would take a few days, but it did work in that application.

Whether it would work to clean the induction system when used in the labeled way, I can't say.

Rich
 
MAKG1 said:
Nate, you seem to be confusing PCV and EGR.

Not all Ford V-engines have EGR. They do all have PCV (since about 1970). And the PCV doesn't suck crap into the manifold unless there is excessive blow-by pressurizing the crankcase.

If you've ever torn one of these down, the "crap" sits right on top of the intake valves. Which means it's almost certainly coming through the valve guides. No fix for that short of replacing them in a major valve job.
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Apologies, I typed PCV near the top and EGR later. It's an EGR problem on the Ecoboost Fords. Not PCV.
 
denverpilot said:
Apologies, I typed PCV near the top and EGR later. It's an EGR problem on the Ecoboost Fords. Not PCV.
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My car is an Ecoboost.

My solution? Auxiliary fuel injection pre intake manifold. Fuel wash on the valves and performance increase...YAY!
 
Most of these "carbon cleaners" don't take off much anyway. One trick I've heard of is to get the engine warmed up then drive it like you stole it/ rev the crap out of it. If things are sufficiently hot in the combustion chamber the carbon will burn away.

We accomplish something similar in our airplanes when we lean the mixture I believe.
 
cowman said:
Most of these "carbon cleaners" don't take off much anyway. One trick I've heard of is to get the engine warmed up then drive it like you stole it/ rev the crap out of it. If things are sufficiently hot in the combustion chamber the carbon will burn away.

We accomplish something similar in our airplanes when we lean the mixture I believe.
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Sort of. Most EFIs have a "passing mode" that enriches the mixture at high throttle. The spark advance is also kept right at the detonation limit by a knock sensor, so the EGT is pretty constant. But higher RPM will burn carbon in proportion.

A properly operated engine in good repair might get a light coating of carbon, but will not accumulate it. Outside of design errors, at least.

You can get EGTs up by (temporarily) disabling EGR if you have it. This might not be a good idea for your catalyst, and it's definitely not legal unless undone after the repair. 40 CFR 1068.101(b)(1).
 
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denverpilot said:
That's an interesting idea.
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It's a performance car with a high pressure engine driven fuel pump that can't supply enough fuel when increasing power.

So what a lot of people are doing to get more fuel is adding another set of injectors and tuning for them. The side benefit is the fuel wash on the valves.
 
This is also a common problem in MINI Coopers. See

http://www.britishamericanauto.com/...uild-up-direct-injection-engines-mini-coopers

and

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=mini+cooper+s+direct+fuel+injection

I'm not sure why, given the engines are direct injection, but using Techron does seem to help. Some folks recommend running a bottle through just before every oil change.

Some people claim to have achieved good results by disconnecting the PCV hose temporarily and running a little Seafoam through it. http://www.detroittuned.com/sea-foam-spray-n18/ This sounds like a similar treatment to what your mechanic is suggesting. Might be worth a try.
 
Pull a plug and take a look?

Most dealers are scams, I seldom take my car in, they often do half arse work for top dollar prices.

I went to have the 60k done on my DD Subaru, I was busy at work and didn't want to do it myself, I asked what they charged and what they would do, price was absurd and they were not even following the OEMs maintenance schedule line items, yeah because they know better than the folks who designed and built the damn thing...
 
James331 said:
Pull a plug and take a look?

Most dealers are scams, I seldom take my car in, they often do half arse work for top dollar prices.

I went to have the 60k done on my DD Subaru, I was busy at work and didn't want to do it myself, I asked what they charged and what they would do, price was absurd and they were not even following the OEMs maintenance schedule line items, yeah because they know better than the folks who designed and built the damn thing...
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That's one of the reasons I do most of my own car maintenance. When I was young and poor it was to save money and because I enjoyed it. Now it's just because it's hard to find a shop that actually does it right and at a price within shouting distance of fair and reasonable.

That being said, the dealerships I use now (the "Country Club" family of dealerships with locations in Oneonta, Binghamton, Utica, and probably some other places in Upstate New York) are the best I've ever come across. They're very honest and charge competitive prices. I still do most of my own maintenance, though. There's not much of it that I can't do, I have the time, it saves me money, and it's a long drive to the dealership.

Rich
 
James331 said:
Pull a plug and take a look?

Most dealers are scams, I seldom take my car in, they often do half arse work for top dollar prices.

I went to have the 60k done on my DD Subaru, I was busy at work and didn't want to do it myself, I asked what they charged and what they would do, price was absurd and they were not even following the OEMs maintenance schedule line items, yeah because they know better than the folks who designed and built the damn thing...
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Pulling a plug as preventative maintenance is a really good idea, but it won't tell you if there is carbon in the intake. It will tell you if there is carbon in the cylinder, though. And often, you can shine a flashlight in and get a look at a piston head. That can detect blow-by and sometimes leaking head gaskets and even moderate to severe detonation.

Sometimes you can pull the intake tube and block the throttle open, and get a look in, but often, you have to remove the intake to see if it's plugged up.

I'd suggest that if the vacuum isn't excessively high at WOT, there is nothing wrong.
 
techron by chevron one bottle every 3k and it will keep it clean. i do not know if it will work after the fact . works in my ford
 
/rant

Before I retired from auto mechanics years ago I was once upon a time a certified master technician and one of the first techs in the whole country to achieve the advanced engine performance certification. So basically I was the guy that they gave all the cars that no one else could fix and you'd see me with the silly scope and 5 gas analyzer hooked up.

I can tell you with certainty that it is indeed possible to tell if there possible carbon accumulation simply by looking at the scan tool data stream if you know what you are doing. You can also verify the quality of an induction service by utilizing the same datastream. I can also attest that a car truly needing an induction service will benefit from the service. You absolutely will not be able to "feel" any difference from the driver's seat, the gains are marginal at best unless it is slam gummed up and if that is the case your maintenance isn't worth a hoot and your car is probably the biggest pile of crap in the trailer park.

I usually refrain from talking on these kind of threads because I'm not going to waste my time arguing with internet experts who never even worked in the field yet know everything about everything.

Bottom line, if you can't afford the services don't buy them. If you want to attempt to do it yourself, do it. 95% of the techs and shops I've worked with are not "out to get you" we are just doing what we were trained to do, make your car perform at its optimum performance and provide a lengthy service life.

/rant

PS - as far as dealers offering service above and beyond what the owner's manual says, that is actually directed by the manufacturer to tailor maintenance demands due to the local environment.
 
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