independent CFI airport prohibition

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N132UW

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N132UW
QUESTION: does an airport director or authority has the legal right to prohibit an independent freelance properly rated and insured CFI to give flight instruction at that airport in an airplane fully owned, leased or rented by the CFI ?
The CFI is not employed and does contract for any FBO or tenant located at that airport. The CFI does not lease any facilities at the airport. The airport is public.

Context:
Below is the MINIMUM STANDARD REQUIREMENTS (MSR) FOR AIRPORT AERONAUTICAL ACTIVITIES at this airport.

---- quote---
Article 8. Independent Operators.
Section 8-1. Independent Flight Training Operator:
An Independent Flight Training Operator is an Entity providing Flight Training at (originating from) the Airport but which does not lease or sublease a Fixed Place of Business on the Airport and does not meet the Minimum Standards for a FlightTraining Operator.

Minimum Standards
a. Location.
1. Prior to conducting Flight Training on or from Airport property under exclusive lease to any Entity, an Independent Flight Training Operator shall provide the Airport Director with written evidence of permission from such Entity granting permission to operate on its leased premises.
2. Unless otherwise approved by the Airport Director, in-person Ground School occurring on Airport property may only occur on the premises of a Flight Training Operator with a Fixed Place of Business. The Independent Operator shall submit an agreement with a Flight Training Operator for the use of its
premises to the Airport Director for approval prior to conducting Ground School.
b. Limitations.
1. Independent Flight Training Operators are prohibited from providing Flight Training in their own aircraft, including aircraft leased to or rented by the Independent Flight Training Operator.
---- end quote---


It looks any properly registered, insured and rated independent freelance flight instructor is prohibited to give flight instruction in any rented, leased or fully owned aircraft at (originating from) that airport.

Thank you for your input.
 
Conduct the brief at a local coffee shop… it then did not originate there, and therefore excluded?

I get the idea, but it’s not very practical to enforce. How would some transient guy ever even know this? Lots of attempts along these lines for maintenance as well.

Alternatively it seems to suggest you gotta have permission. Perhaps they can’t DENY the permission, but can require you to ask?
 
"Independent Flight Training Operators are prohibited from providing Flight Training in their own aircraft,"

how would the airport know?

Next - what if I, as the aircraft owner, hire an independent CFI to train me in my aircraft, what can the airport do?

And where is this?
 
KSBA. Airport might or might not know but the core issue is to know if any public airport authority has the legal right to prohibit a freelance CFI to exercise his/her legal privileges at that airport in an aircraft that is fully owned, leased or rented by that CFI?
What is the law/statute/regulation that authorize a public airport authority to prohibit this particular FAA legal activity ?
 
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I have run into this before at my airport when the manager decided to develop commercial minimum standards as encouraged in the Airport Improvement Program. The verbiage the OP supplied is verbatim from a sample document the FAA provides and my airport's manager used but I can't find right now. Basically the airport manager copied and pasted from an example document provided by the FAA.

There was enough nonsense in the what airport manager drafted (and called out on by the airport advisory board) that the city attorney nixed the whole thing.

Here are some snips from Advisory Circular 150/5190-7 MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR COMMERCIAL AERONAUTICAL ACTIVITIES


1689895742548.png

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N132UW said:
What is the law/statute/regulation that authorize a public airport authority to prohibit this particular FAA legal activity ?
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What licensing requirements does the established FBO have to meet? it’s the equivalent of a municipality requiring a hot dog cart owner to have a business License in order to sell hot dogs on the sidewalk in front of a fast food restaurant.

I really don’t see a problem with requiring every business that’s based on an airport to meet the same standards.
 
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Just spitballing, but i Imagine that the City or County has leased an exclusive concession to the FBO in exchange for the FBO taking care of the property, etc. in the spirit of reducing government & removing employees from the public payroll.

I’ve been told the private sector is the answer. This is what you get when a private party buys a monopoly on public facilities.
 
municipality requiring a hot dog cart owner to have a business License in order to sell hot dogs on the sidewalk in front of a fast food restaurant
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I do not think this is not a good example. Most public airports are managed by a city but still have to comply with FAA requirements such as AC No: 150/5190-7:

These Federal obligations involve several distinct requirements. Most important is that the airportand its facilities must be available for public use as an airport. The terms imposed on those who usethe airport and its services must be reasonable and applied without unjust discrimination, whether bythe airport sponsor or by a contractor or licensee who has been granted a right by the airport sponsorto offer services or commodities normally required to serve aeronautical users of the airport.
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A licensed CFI is not an city licensed hot dogs seller. A properly registered insured CFI meet, as far as I know, all the legal requirements to duly exercise his/her rights to teach flying and I have not yet seen any FAA rules that legally prohibits freelance CFIs to give flight instruction in an airplane fully owned, leased or rented by that CFI at a public airport.

And basically, it is not a question of obtaining a City Business Licence. It is the fact that the airport manager prohibits independent CFIs to teach in an aircraft that is fully owned, leased or rented by that CFI, with or without a City Business Licence.
 
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rhkennerly said:
Just spitballing, but i Imagine that the City or County has leased an exclusive concession to the FBO in exchange for the FBO taking care of the property, etc. in the spirit of reducing government & removing employees from the public payroll.

I’ve been told the private sector is the answer. This is what you get when a private party buys a monopoly on public facilities.
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only one active flight school at KSBA. They have a monopoly.
 
N132UW said:
A licensed CFI is not an unlicensed hot dogs seller. A properly registered insured CFI meet, as far as I know, all the legal requirements to duly exercise his/her rights to teach flying and I have not yet seen any FAA rules that legally prohibits freelance CFIs to give flight instruction in an airplane fully owned, leased or rented by that CFI at a public airport.
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a Flight Instructor certificate is not a business license. There is a difference, and that difference is accepted by the FAA. Just like a Commercial pilot cannot provide charter services without additional approvals. If that flight instructor does not meet the requirements of the local authorities to operate a business, he does not meet all the legal requirements to duly exercise his PRIVILEGE to teach flying.
 
There have been attempts to prevent itinerant mechanics from working on airplanes using similar rules.

There are numerous examples of "minimum standards" available online that airports across the country have adopted. Many address flight training and most are very flexible. Sounds like a lazy airport manager wrote the minimum standards at the OP's airport.

I would say the hot dog vendor analogy is not a good one because airports don't regulate or grant business licenses just as airports don't regulate building codes or issue building permits, at least not in my state.
 
Walboy said:
I would say the hot dog vendor analogy is not a good one because airports don't regulate or grant business licenses, at least not in my state.
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Airports don’t, but the cities and counties that own or operate them do. And the sidewalk he’s operating from is just as public as the airport.
 
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Does a CFI providing instruction count as a commercial venture ? And if so - they probably need to report and register it as a commercial entity (city license, pay taxes, etc). A CFI is allowed to teach and provide instruction as mandated by the FAA, but it doesnt change the business requirements that the airport or city/county also require. I mean there should be minimum insurance requirements, 100hr inspections, and all that as well. So yes - I think a CFI acting as an independent contractor is an operating business. if that isnt the case - then every A&P is and should be allowed to work at any field without regard to existing shops and/or regulations
 
It is not a question of a City Business Licence or paying taxes or complying with commercial requirements or insurance, FAA etc... There is no prohibition for those requirements.
It is a question of the legal authority for an Airport Manager to PROHIBIT a CFI of to teach in an aircraft that is fully owned, leased or rented by that CFI if the CFI does not lease or sublease a fixed place of business at that airport.

Section 8-1. Independent Flight Training Operator:
An Independent Flight Training Operator is an Entity providing Flight Training at (originating from) the Airport but which does not lease or sublease a Fixed Place of Business on the Airport and does not meet the Minimum Standards for a FlightTraining Operator.
Click to expand...

Minimum Standards
...
b. Limitations.
1. Independent Flight Training Operators are prohibited from providing Flight Training in their own aircraft, including aircraft leased to or rented by the Independent Flight Training Operator.
Click to expand...


So if you are an independent CFI at KSBA, you meet all other legal requirements (City Business Licence, insurance, taxes, FAA, etc..) and you are unable to lease or sublease a fixed place of business due to cost or simply unavailability, you are implicitly prohibited to independently teach in any aircraft because you do not lease or sublease a fixed place of business at the airport. You can not even ask the only FBO on the field to rent an airplane to teach flight lesson. It is prohibited by the Airport Manager.

This is just creating a monopoly in favor of the only flight school on the field.
 
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I agree. Not exactly open. But at the same time, if you as a CFI are allowed to teach, does that mean any A&P can wrench ? And we know how airports restrict off field mechanics. Its the same, right ? You're plane etc I think is a separate thing - because if its located there, you might want to see if "commercial activity" is allowed as well in your lease.
 
N132UW said:
So if you are an independent CFI at KSBA, you have a City Business Licence and you are unable to lease or sublease a fixed place of business due to cost or simply unavailability, you are implicitly prohibited to independently teach because you do not lease or sublease a fixed place of business at the airport.
Click to expand...

It's not just KSBA. But I agree, it's not right.
 
Flight instruction is governed by the FAA.

What if the airport manager also make a decree that he/she must test and certify any pilot who wants to land or take off from his/her airport?

It would be the same as if Barney prevented anyone from driving on a public road who although they had a state issued driver's license didn't have one issued by Mayberry.
 
N132UW said:
It is not a question of a City Business Licence or paying taxes or complying with commercial requirements or insurance, FAA etc... There is no prohibition for those requirements.
It is a question of the legal authority for an Airport Manager to PROHIBIT a CFI of to teach in an aircraft that is fully owned, leased or rented by that CFI if the CFI does not lease or sublease a fixed place of business at that airport.






So if you are an independent CFI at KSBA, you meet all other legal requirements (City Business Licence, insurance, taxes, FAA, etc..) and you are unable to lease or sublease a fixed place of business due to cost or simply unavailability, you are implicitly prohibited to independently teach in any aircraft because you do not lease or sublease a fixed place of business at the airport. You can not even ask the only FBO on the field to rent an airplane to teach flight lesson. It is prohibited by the Airport Manager.

This is just creating a monopoly in favor of the only flight school on the field.
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The airport manager is not prohibiting an instructor from providing instruction. He is prohibiting an instructor who does not have adequate facilities as mandated by the airport authority from operating a business on the managed airport.
 
WDD said:
Flight instruction is governed by the FAA.
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Yes…and nothing in 61.193 or 61.413 authorizes an instructor to operate a business based at the location of his choice without regard to airport authority or FAA recommendations.

Bottom line is the argument that’s being made is “I’m a Sovereign Citizen, I don’t have to submit to your authority.” If you want to get anywhere, you’re going to have to prove that Advisory Circular 150/5190-7 MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR COMMERCIAL AERONAUTICAL ACTIVITIES is in violation of federal statute.
 
It's a polarizing topic, usually with a "follow the money" aspect to it.

Sort of like HOAs, you either love them or you hate them. Vote with your feet accordingly.

The FAA makes it clear that minimum standards are optional. An airport sponsor can draft them anyway they want to fit their agenda.
 
MauleSkinner said:
The airport manager is not prohibiting an instructor from providing instruction. He is prohibiting an instructor who does not have adequate facilities as mandated by the airport authority from operating a business on the managed airport.
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Bingo.
Walboy said:
The FAA makes it clear that minimum standards are optional. An airport sponsor can draft them anyway they want to fit their agenda.
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Sort of. They still have to comply with State and Federal regs, but generally, most Minimum Standards are just filled with boilerplate language to satisfy grant assurances.
 
We’re not talking about a business that needs adequate parking, bathrooms, and health inspections.
 
WDD said:
We’re not talking about a business that needs adequate parking, bathrooms, and health inspections.
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According to the airport authority, who is following the suggestions of the FAA, we are.
 
Health inspection of a plane?

Bless their hearts.
 
N132UW said:
I do agree with the wording but still nobody has yet answered the question: under what statute/rule/law is he entitled to prohibit an instructor who does not have adequate facilities as mandated by the airport authority from operating a business on the managed airport
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that would be a question for the airport authority. but If you want this overturned, you’re not going to get it done by making them prove they can do it. You’re going to have to prove they can’t.
 
One thing I don't think can be debated it that such policies make learning to fly more expensive. I can't imaging that anyone who cares about the future of general aviation and our "little" airplanes could think this is a good thing. IMHO, of course.
 
How exactly would this prohibition be enforced?
 
If I was fighting this, I would ask how they prevent someone like myself from Texas from flying in with a student from Dallas, refueling and going over the weather and a bit of cross-country instruction, and then departing. It's worth fighting to have such stupid "laws" in place taken down.
 
RyanShort1 said:
If I was fighting this, I would ask how they prevent someone like myself from Texas from flying in with a student from Dallas, refueling and going over the weather and a bit of cross-country instruction, and then departing. It's worth fighting to have such stupid "laws" in place taken down.
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The policy quoted doesn’t prohibit that.
 
Yes, the CFI can be banned. So can the shade tree mechanic, avionics tech or anyone else without an agreement with the airport. You have to pay to play.
 
In a public airport? If it was private, I could see the lord of the tarmac making his wishes known.
 
Clip4 said:
A. A request to stop.
B. A trespass notice.
C. Arrest.
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Lol.


Airport mgr: please send a policeman right away
911: what’s the problem?
Airport mgr: a certified pilot instructor is instructing without my approval

Seriously, that’s some funny stuff.

How exactly will they know when to do these three things?
 
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