RussR
En-Route
Why are you skipping the instrument rating? Granted your parenthetical comment seems to be cut off, but it's required to be a CFI (in airplanes, anyway).
Impossible to find CFIIs
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Why are you skipping the instrument rating? Granted your parenthetical comment seems to be cut off, but it's required to be a CFI (in airplanes, anyway).
Not sure when that would have been. Garmin has been making aviation GPSes since 1991 when they adapted their first marine unit to aviation use. It was seven years later when they released the first Outdoors model (GPSII).
SkyDog58
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Canis Non Grata
Is he a CFII? If he always bugs you about it, maybe he would be willing to instruct you.
Caramon13
Pattern Altitude
Quickest route to CFI. Obviously most if they go through any sort of formal "program" will get that done too. Was just trying to illustrate the lowest cost method.
CFI with what rating? As pointed out you can't get an airplane, powered lift, or instrument rating on your CFI certificate without it. Unless you intend to take your ride in a rotorcraft (which won't be cheaper than getting your instrument rating and ticket in an airplane) or glider or LTA, you can't do it.
RussR
En-Route
I'm still not sure what you mean. A CFI-Airplane is REQUIRED to have an instrument rating. There's no "route" that doesn't include it. 61.183(c)
It hasn't always been that way, but it has been for a long time.
Caramon13
Pattern Altitude
Not according to 61.195.
All you need is an instructor cert and a cert for category and class. You can get your private and commercial and cfi and skip instrument if you want. Granted you won't be able to do any of the required instrument training for a PPL or commercial, but don't need it.
dmspilot
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No, 61.195 tells you when a CFI needs an instrument rating on their instructor certificate.
In order get an instructor certificate (with an airplane rating) you need a commercial pilot certificate and an instrument rating, or an ATP. 61.183(c).
Caramon13
Pattern Altitude
PilotRPI
Line Up and Wait
The best CFIIs around me are not instructing for the schools, but they do it on on the side. Some are pilots for the majors or some just do it for fun. Of course then you would need to have your own plane, or find a school that will let you use their plane with an instructor they don't have (or just don't tell them you're doing it). I love flying, I love teaching, and I'm planning on going down the CFI/CFII route in the future.
PW_Plack
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Paul Plack
Many veteran airline pilots are being shed by the airlines when they hit forced retirement age. It would be great if the pay was enough to lure some of these guys back into instruction, but they might not feel secure investing the time and effort to get into teaching. As one prominent CFI told me, "at our age, you could be one doctor appointment away from losing your income."
denverpilot
Tied Down
Okay I have to ask.
When you read the ACS, what did you think was going to happen on the checkride when you read section V.A “Intercepting and Tracking Navigational Systems and Arcs”, knowing your instructor hadn’t covered it?
https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/acs/media/instrument_rating_acs.pdf
How about when reading the Instrument Flying Handbook, Chapter 9?
How did you prep for the written? Reading the FAA pubs, or a ‘cram but don’t understand it’ app like Sheppard? Did your instructor review the topics in the written (required) using a written checklist (sadly not required)? Did they ask if you had any questions about what’s in the FAA pubs?
I assume they only flew with you for the required 15 hours. What approaches and activities were you doing during the other 25 for the rating?
Before you took the ride had you ever heard the colloquial phrase “if it’s in the panel, you have to know how to use it completely”?
I only ask as a warning to others, but you do have to know what’s in the ACS, FAR/AIM, and FAA pubs like the Instrument Flying Handbook, and know that you can perform it all, if the aircraft is capable... even if the instructor is a ninny and somehow missed teaching it.
It’s surprising to hear PIC screwed up that badly. Their syllabus used to cover all of this. Was the instructor using their official syllabus? If not, you need to have a chat with them about a refund, I think. At least one person here in the past was an instructor for them.
aterpster
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aterpster
Many retired airline pilots don't want the potential liability of instructing. Some don't like training type light airplanes.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
Liability is number one. Second is pay, if a retired guy was to charge what his time was really worth, no one would pay. Something like "golf lessons" pay much more than giving flight instruction and has much lower liability.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Bottom line, whether you’ve got the world’s best instructor, the world’s worst instructor, or something in between, you need to take responsibility for your own training.
Larry in TN
En-Route
It's not the pay. If a retired part 121 pilot is teaching of the pay, he may not be the best instructor. He probably has a lot of other problems keeping him from concentrating on teaching.
It is the liability. If a student has an accident, the retired airline pilot/instructor is going to be seen as having the deep pockets.
denverpilot
Tied Down
This isn’t just a problem for ex-121 guys and gals.
If you have had a successful career outside of aviation and assets, and then decide you want to “give back” and instruct... the insurance to do so properly makes the instruction a negative on the balance sheet. Especially if the money to get the ratings is included as a business expense and loss.
I ran the spreadsheet and WITHOUT liability coverage, my break even on my training costs was ten years out as a weekend warrior. Add the insurance and you’re just paying less to fly and have someone attempt to kill you regularly. Haha.
You have to love it if you want to instruct as a side gig. It’ll make tiny money in ten years.
Also ran numbers for a full timers with their own Skyhawk with insurance. That’s even more horrid. Three Skyhawks and three instructors might break even but then you need office space and room to teach and store things. Etc.
Can also talk to @jesse about that. It’s a rough business. Mostly because there’s a magic limit in people’s heads when buying airplane and instructional services. When it goes above $200/hr combined they start to wonder if it’s worth it. The places that make the higher prices worth it have to have too notch aircraft and top notch instructors to make the worry that they’re being ripped off, go away. And I don’t mean brand new aircraft.
Top notch is decently equipped for all training missions and clean with as little downtime as possible.
If someone wants new airplanes, around here they’re taking a hike to the Cirrus place and paying well over $300/hr combined. Just how it goes.
This. I’m not going to do an ROI on getting my CFI, party because it would be ugly in comparison to alternatives, but also because I got my ratings for my own. But I’d love to teach, and they say you don’t know it until you teach it. I want to be the best pilot I can.
However, I’m struggling to rationalize actually being a CFI. Work nights and every weekend for $24 an hour with no benefits? Be on call when a student is soloing or taking a checkride? Getting a call from the FAA when someone I gave a BFR to screws up?
The economic alternatives are just too strong. I’d venture that most of us here could do gig work online for $50 an hour, in the comfort of our home, with none of those responsibilities.
I have tremendous respect for those that do it, and they are out there, and they deserve substantially more compensation than most ratings candidates are willing to pay.
I see it as a great way to continue growing and sharing experience post-retirement. I’m really struggling to rationalize it as a career alternative or second job.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
On call when a student is soloing?
When I sign my students off for solo I don't even ask them to text me that they are doing so. I've signed you off for PIC, exercise that authority. I currently have one student I've signed off for multiple repeated flights to 6 or 7 airports. Have at it.
When I sign my students off for solo I don't even ask them to text me that they are doing so. I've signed you off for PIC, exercise that authority. I currently have one student I've signed off for multiple repeated flights to 6 or 7 airports. Have at it.
AggieMike88
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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
The only one I am aware of was C'Ron and he left our company many moons ago.
None the less, I agree with the questions and points you raise on the post I've quoted from.
Ryan F.
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Ryan Ferguson 1974
Won't comment on a specific situation as there is usually more than one perspective and the second one hasn't been shared. I imagine the view from the other side of those relationships might be very different. Who's right, who's wrong? Maybe one or the other, maybe neither, maybe both. That's a knot which can't be untangled, nor do I think there's any benefit to trying.
There are some universal truths contained within the narratives, though. I do absolutely agree that an applicant's thorough understanding of the ACS is critical to a positive outcome. Part of my pre-test briefing includes explaining that I conduct practical tests to the letter of the ACS. And I ask if applicants have read and understand the ACS. Those who have and do, generally perform very well. For those who haven't, the results are more varied.
The ACS is the blueprint for the practical test, and should be referenced throughout training. It's not a syllabus, but the core of a good syllabus will contain the whole of the ACS. If your flying and knowledge are going to be evaluated, wouldn't you like to really know the standards? They're in black and white. Whenever I'm asked specifics about my checkride profiles, I always say, "Just read the ACS -- it's in there!" And it truly is. There are no surprises.
And it's also how we avoid the "I never did that in training" trap.
Arcs are a good example. I was asked at a safety seminar about DME arcs -- an audience member had the mistaken belief that "those aren't required anymore." Why would you think that, I asked? The details are spelled out in the ACS. There should be absolutely no mystery about what to expect on any practical test. A "charted and available arc" is completely fair game. Appendix 7 in the Instrument Airplane ACS even states "... the applicant is expected to be able to fly DME arcs!" A sure-fire way to fail your checkride is to be asked to perform a task and have no idea how to do it.
There are some universal truths contained within the narratives, though. I do absolutely agree that an applicant's thorough understanding of the ACS is critical to a positive outcome. Part of my pre-test briefing includes explaining that I conduct practical tests to the letter of the ACS. And I ask if applicants have read and understand the ACS. Those who have and do, generally perform very well. For those who haven't, the results are more varied.
The ACS is the blueprint for the practical test, and should be referenced throughout training. It's not a syllabus, but the core of a good syllabus will contain the whole of the ACS. If your flying and knowledge are going to be evaluated, wouldn't you like to really know the standards? They're in black and white. Whenever I'm asked specifics about my checkride profiles, I always say, "Just read the ACS -- it's in there!" And it truly is. There are no surprises.
And it's also how we avoid the "I never did that in training" trap.
Arcs are a good example. I was asked at a safety seminar about DME arcs -- an audience member had the mistaken belief that "those aren't required anymore." Why would you think that, I asked? The details are spelled out in the ACS. There should be absolutely no mystery about what to expect on any practical test. A "charted and available arc" is completely fair game. Appendix 7 in the Instrument Airplane ACS even states "... the applicant is expected to be able to fly DME arcs!" A sure-fire way to fail your checkride is to be asked to perform a task and have no idea how to do it.
RussR
En-Route
Arcs are a tough nut, an example of things in the ACS which are problematic to test and train on.
Near where I teach, the closest airport with an arc on an IAP is about 50 nm away. But to fly the arc as published, you would have to start from the feeder VOR which is 76 nm away from home. I estimate to fly from the home airport to the feeder VOR, around the arc and down final to the runway is over 130nm total - then even if straight back to home it becomes a 180 nm flight.
The next two closest airports with arcs are each over 100nm (airport-to-airport) away from home.
So it is challenging to practice actual arcs. I can and have worked them into the IFR cross country, but depending on the student and their progression, I may have more important and pertinent topics I wish to cover on that flight.
Of course, I can (and have) made up random arcs (fly the 10 DME arc around this NAVAID). But at least in my experience, that's practicing a skill (flying random ATC-assigned arcs) that you're never going to get in actual flying. And if they don't have an actual DME receiver, then we need to display the GPS distance to the facility, which to me seems like even more forcing of the scenario.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Light and Sporty Guy
You can get your sport pilot CFI ticket without the "I". But then you would be lacking in basic teaching skills.
Caramon13
Pattern Altitude
I think what I've learned from reading all these posts is that in order to be an effective instructor (long term), you REALLY REALLY have to LOVE teaching and flying enough that you are willing to forgo a lot of the amenities you could probably gain from doing other things. Not a lot of "career-minded" folks are willing to put their long term growth, safety, retirement prospects and net worth (which could be a target in an accident) at risk to teach people.
So, there you go @murphey. That is why there aren't a lot of quality instructors out there, instead you get what you get.
I did a CFI ROI like @denverpilot and it was depressing how long it would take to pay back the investment. I would love doing it, AND I know I would be good at it. However, in a few decades I actually want to retire comfortably, I have a family to think about and those responsibilities have to come before any personal passions (for me).
It would be fantastic if the cost of aviation decreased and the pay for instructors was enough to offset insurance costs and attract new folks that actually want to do that as a career instead of a technology career (for example).
Choosing to work for FAANG, earning 300K+ and flying a few times a week is a helluva lot more attractive then perpetual debt and liability for <= 40K a year. The industry just can't expect to attract talent with that kind of package. Instead it's a "temporary" stop over career with exactly who you would expect in that type of position 9/10 times.
So, there you go @murphey. That is why there aren't a lot of quality instructors out there, instead you get what you get.
I did a CFI ROI like @denverpilot and it was depressing how long it would take to pay back the investment. I would love doing it, AND I know I would be good at it. However, in a few decades I actually want to retire comfortably, I have a family to think about and those responsibilities have to come before any personal passions (for me).
It would be fantastic if the cost of aviation decreased and the pay for instructors was enough to offset insurance costs and attract new folks that actually want to do that as a career instead of a technology career (for example).
Choosing to work for FAANG, earning 300K+ and flying a few times a week is a helluva lot more attractive then perpetual debt and liability for <= 40K a year. The industry just can't expect to attract talent with that kind of package. Instead it's a "temporary" stop over career with exactly who you would expect in that type of position 9/10 times.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Why is that? (At least, is there any reason your basic teaching skills would be lower than Someone with a CFI-A?
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
hes being sarcastic
Ryan F.
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I hear you, Russ. This is why the ACS is built with some fluidity with regards to these tasks. DME arcs could be trained somewhere along the applicant's path towards certification, possibly on a cross-country flight or even in a simulator. In my neck of the woods here in the NE, it's basically a given that there will be no "charted and available" DME arcs, so I haven't tested applicants on them in flight. When I do instrument rides in other areas, arcs may be available and I have no problem throwing one into my profile just to keep the variety there.
In my view the "made up random arcs" in flight training still have value, but perhaps that's in the eye of the beholder. While it's true they wouldn't be assigned in such a manner, the basic skillset can be learned this way.
denverpilot
Tied Down
And a few of us who are quite willing to operate at an unlivable profit margin and high financial risk... sometimes have medical crap to deal with. LOL.
I know at least four local CFIs grounded for medical issues of one sort or another right now. None who needed the job to feed themselves or their families, luckily.
Why be a CFI or CFII? For some it is the way to move into the airlines. Some of us do it to give back to aviation. Very few of us can do it as a way to make a living as is true of many fields art, music, literature to name a few.
Life is an interesting mixture of absolute joy and unfathomable suckiness. This is one of those bedrock things like the speed of light in a vacuum. So do we aspire to ascend on gossamer wing or flop back in horror and despair? Most of us weave a sinuous path combining some of both with a strong resolve to do the best we can and make things better. Each of us has to choose the elements that go into our existence.
I love aviation and have since well as about as far back as memory goes. I choose to instruct because I want and need to plus am in a financial and life space that makes this possible. Thanks to my wife's astute financial skills we are enjoying a comfortable retirement. Also thanks to her the need for protection from liabilities associated with instruction has been examined and insurance is being purchased.
Liability is one of those concepts our legal system deals with poorly. Negligence, gross negligence, inadequate treatment wow what a bunch of seemingly well defined concepts totally obscured by our system of jurisprudence. As a CFI, I can be sued by a student at any time for any reason. But wait what about laws prohibiting specious or frivolous suits. They will protect me! Are you really that stupid? The problem is once you are sued the options are settling or going to trial. Both cost lots of money!
To make it easy let us imagine Joe or Josephine Bagodoughnuts, one of my students, heads out on a cross country but did not put one of the fuel caps back on. No surprise motion lotion supply becomes zero, engine quits, J. Bagodougnuts hospitalized for months, so I get sued. J claims permanent amnesia, jury finds in J's favor (remember they do not have to explain their finding, maybe they decide based on a Ouji board and Tarot cards), and awards $1,500,000. Goodbye house, cars, and savings. Hello possible forfeiture or garnishment of retirement. Remember, anyone can sue you for any reason but you still have to defend yourself! Everything you own can be taken away by court order. If you cannot accept this risk or erect safeguards then you probably need to forget becoming an instructor.
My dad was a lawyer who always said our legal system is about many things. Unfortunately fairness or justice are usually not among the things being considered.
Bottom line, look, think, then act. If you decide to become a CFI given the above GREAT! Quit talking and get to making it happen! To borrow a phrase lead, follow, or get out of your way.
Firm but well meant words from a really old guy
Life is an interesting mixture of absolute joy and unfathomable suckiness. This is one of those bedrock things like the speed of light in a vacuum. So do we aspire to ascend on gossamer wing or flop back in horror and despair? Most of us weave a sinuous path combining some of both with a strong resolve to do the best we can and make things better. Each of us has to choose the elements that go into our existence.
I love aviation and have since well as about as far back as memory goes. I choose to instruct because I want and need to plus am in a financial and life space that makes this possible. Thanks to my wife's astute financial skills we are enjoying a comfortable retirement. Also thanks to her the need for protection from liabilities associated with instruction has been examined and insurance is being purchased.
Liability is one of those concepts our legal system deals with poorly. Negligence, gross negligence, inadequate treatment wow what a bunch of seemingly well defined concepts totally obscured by our system of jurisprudence. As a CFI, I can be sued by a student at any time for any reason. But wait what about laws prohibiting specious or frivolous suits. They will protect me! Are you really that stupid? The problem is once you are sued the options are settling or going to trial. Both cost lots of money!
To make it easy let us imagine Joe or Josephine Bagodoughnuts, one of my students, heads out on a cross country but did not put one of the fuel caps back on. No surprise motion lotion supply becomes zero, engine quits, J. Bagodougnuts hospitalized for months, so I get sued. J claims permanent amnesia, jury finds in J's favor (remember they do not have to explain their finding, maybe they decide based on a Ouji board and Tarot cards), and awards $1,500,000. Goodbye house, cars, and savings. Hello possible forfeiture or garnishment of retirement. Remember, anyone can sue you for any reason but you still have to defend yourself! Everything you own can be taken away by court order. If you cannot accept this risk or erect safeguards then you probably need to forget becoming an instructor.
My dad was a lawyer who always said our legal system is about many things. Unfortunately fairness or justice are usually not among the things being considered.
Bottom line, look, think, then act. If you decide to become a CFI given the above GREAT! Quit talking and get to making it happen! To borrow a phrase lead, follow, or get out of your way.
Firm but well meant words from a really old guy
You can also upload your FF tracks into cloud ahoy for analysis.
aterpster
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aterpster
People are far less apt to sue a young CFI who is building time for an airline job and who has no assets. But, once he or she is an airline pilot forget the flight instructing. It is simply not worth the risk. After I was with my airline, I did one instrument rating and one multi-engine rating. They were a wealthy couple who owned two airplanes, and had me as a named insured on their airplane insurance policies. Even that still had an element of risk. I didn't charge a fee but took it out in flying time. That was the only reason I did it.
aterpster-love Marvin! Somebody at a prior job had a bunch of his audio files for Windows audios.
Life is about choices. Do I pursue a given field of study (art, humanities, science, engineering) and with how much rigor. For someone who pursues a military career each branch has a certain appeal and there are components that require much greater effort than others. Not everyone joins the Navy to be a SEAL. Those of us who choose to become flight instructors do so for our own reasons. Those whom choose not to have their reasons too.
In the end it boils down to do or do not. Sing or get off of the stage! Make a plan, move forward, adjust the plan, move forward repeat! We share experiences but have to live our own life. Hopefully our paths interconnect and we can share but bottom line each of us lives our own life! As a myopic (forget military pilot approach), obese (working on it now), not sure what I wanted to do but fly although that was not a possibility back in my day, middle class person growing up in the deep south during the 50s/60s, divorced, cancer survivor life has been full of challenges. The most important take away is the only thing that matters is how we react to the events of our life!
A nudge or three to help you off of dead center:
Need to attend college
>make good grades, lots of activities and pursue ALL funding sources result US Navy scholarship for last two years of undergraduate
Want to fly for airlines
>kept active, obtained advanced licenses etc.
>usual foot dragging crap I wear glasses no one will hire me, have a family, have a rare cancer WHAT AM I DOING IF I EVER HOPE TO BECOME AN AIRLINE PILOT GOTTA MAKE CHANGES so obtained ATP, left United and started flying Beech 1900 cancer
>Didn't make it to a major but gave it my best and learned a lot along the way
Tried running my own business
>First two died at about the end of the second year
>6 months into newest and looking good
The key is how are you going to achieve your goal? Obstacles etc are part of the whole kit and caboodle! Get on with making a solution reality! Find your solution, don't try to copy others.
Best wishes for a great success filled future
Life is about choices. Do I pursue a given field of study (art, humanities, science, engineering) and with how much rigor. For someone who pursues a military career each branch has a certain appeal and there are components that require much greater effort than others. Not everyone joins the Navy to be a SEAL. Those of us who choose to become flight instructors do so for our own reasons. Those whom choose not to have their reasons too.
In the end it boils down to do or do not. Sing or get off of the stage! Make a plan, move forward, adjust the plan, move forward repeat! We share experiences but have to live our own life. Hopefully our paths interconnect and we can share but bottom line each of us lives our own life! As a myopic (forget military pilot approach), obese (working on it now), not sure what I wanted to do but fly although that was not a possibility back in my day, middle class person growing up in the deep south during the 50s/60s, divorced, cancer survivor life has been full of challenges. The most important take away is the only thing that matters is how we react to the events of our life!
A nudge or three to help you off of dead center:
Need to attend college
>make good grades, lots of activities and pursue ALL funding sources result US Navy scholarship for last two years of undergraduate
Want to fly for airlines
>kept active, obtained advanced licenses etc.
>usual foot dragging crap I wear glasses no one will hire me, have a family, have a rare cancer WHAT AM I DOING IF I EVER HOPE TO BECOME AN AIRLINE PILOT GOTTA MAKE CHANGES so obtained ATP, left United and started flying Beech 1900 cancer
>Didn't make it to a major but gave it my best and learned a lot along the way
Tried running my own business
>First two died at about the end of the second year
>6 months into newest and looking good
The key is how are you going to achieve your goal? Obstacles etc are part of the whole kit and caboodle! Get on with making a solution reality! Find your solution, don't try to copy others.
Best wishes for a great success filled future