IMC the whole fight?

Morgan3820

Morgan3820

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With the upgrades, I finally have a 2 axis digital auto pilot with an Aspen E5. In the past, my flights IFR would involve relatively short moments of IMC. Typically on departure or approach with occasional en route. But now that I have this new capability I am considering the possibility of allowing myself longer flights all in IMC. I know that for you pro pilots that this is a nonissue but How many of you private pilots regularly do 2 1/2 to 3 hour flights totally IMC. I am not sure how myself or my passengers would react to a long flight without seeing the sun or the ground or any horizon. Curious to see what other people think.
 
I've been well over an hour in imc, but I work to get vmc if possible. Easier on me, and most importantly easier on passengers. Generally it means sucking oxygen. But if I needed to be imc for a whole flight I'd do it as long g as there is an out should things be worse than forecast.
 
Morgan3820 said:
With the upgrades, I finally have a 2 axis digital auto pilot with an Aspen E5. In the past, my flights IFR would involve relatively short moments of IMC. Typically on departure or approach with occasional en route. But now that I have this new capability I am considering the possibility of allowing myself longer flights all in IMC. How many of you private pilots regularly do 2 1/2 to 3 hour flights totally IMC. I am not sure how myself or my passengers would react to a long flight without seeing the sun or the ground or any horizon. Curious to see what other people think.
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I've done it, but it does get tiring. A two axis autopilot would help, but always have to be prepared for it not to work.

The longest I have ever done was 4 hours, solid IMC, rain, turbulence, solo, with an old single axis autopilot. By the end of that I just wanted out of the airplane, nearly diverted just to get my feet on the ground.

My bigger concern comes from what is underneath. In a single engine airplane, I would like to have some type of ceiling that would hopefully give me options in an engine out scenario. I would not be comfortable being IMC for a long time, with extremely low ceilings and visibility at the ground level. I'd prefer to break out 1,000 feet AGL at least and have some type of ability to maneuver if necessary.
 
In Richard Taylor's "Instrument Flying", there is discussion of progressing from

1) VMC at both the departure and destination, with some IMC enroute
2) (IIRC) VMC at departure, with IMC enroute, IMC at at the destination (but not low-IMC)
3) IMC at departure, IMC enoute, IMC at destination (but not low-IMC)
4) IMC for the whole flight.

I've never "regularly" flew IMC for the whole flight. But have done a few flights with my Dad where we were IMC most of the way. But still VMC (sort of) at the destination. Not much to look at, but the purpose of the flight was to go see my Dad's side of the family.

The first time I spent 3+ hours hand-flying my 140 in the clouds motivated me to put a single-axis AP in the plane.
 
Have done IMC with an auto pilot for several hours. Can be stressful. I prefer depart IMC and land marginal VMC or better.
 
It's pretty rare to have conditions when this would occur unless of course you are looking for it. My goal is to be in VMC conditions as much as possible for a number of reasons. Typically even on IFR flights one can find VMC between layers or on top at least en route.
 
I would start with some en route IMC, you’d want ceilings at least 2000-3000’ AGL, with tops below what you can easily climb too. When you are IMC, you really need to focus on your instruments, make sure everything is lining up correctly, check for icing, etc. Even with an autopilot those can misperform so you’d want to keep an eye on them.

The idea is you have a way out either above or below the cloud deck. You cannot always count on going IFR because of the minimum altitude requirement too, I don’t think you can say hey I’m not happy in IMC here at 6000’ let’s go to 2000’ and hope to break out, and if the cloud deck is too thick your airplane might not be capable of climbing above it, or what if you are taking on icing and need to find a spot to land asap, something to keep in mind. You’d also want to prep your approach well in advance of arriving to keep ahead of the airplane. It’s easy to get behind and last thing you’d want is to be full speed supposed to intercept an approach course that you aren’t ready for. At least in VMC you don’t have to worry about running into anything but in IMC workload increases exponentially. Having several airports with higher ceilings as options to land gives you extra freedom in case of an issue.

Take it really slow, I had some actual IMC recently and it was scary/uncomfortable for me due to inexperience but I’m glad that I added some small elements to get exposure in.
 
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Back when I was young (er) and newly IR'd, I flew from FDK MD to IWI ME totally in the soup in a Cherokee 140 with out an a/p, wife aboard, in the neighborhood of 4 hours. Not much turbulence, but a fair amount of precip. Had to stay below 7k due to icing above, so no climbing over, and MEA's were too high to go under. The hardest part isn't the hand flying, it's coping with the re-routes once up toward NY and Boston. Fortunately had a 430W, but this was pre Foreflight, so reading the charts (ENE and EEN look REALLY similar under those conditions) folding and refolding charts, watching the dials and reprogramming the GPS took it's toll. Breaking out at 800 agl and seeing the runway lights was the prettiest thing I ever saw. Never felt behind the airplane but it was a challenge. Great for the experience bucket.

Wife slept through the whole thing. As a non-pilot, just as well.

I love having an a/p. Today, if facing the same trip with an inop autopilot, I would probably scrub. I like flying up through the deck, maybe a little taste of IMC enroute, and descending down the through the deck comfortably above minima. I fly for fun. Being in it 4 hours straight and and approach to minimums ain't fun anymore.
 
FORANE said:
It's pretty rare to have conditions when this would occur unless of course you are looking for it. My goal is to be in VMC conditions as much as possible for a number of reasons. Typically even on IFR flights one can find VMC between layers or on top at least en route.
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This has been my experience as well. Generally the areas of imc aren't all that widespread and airplanes move pretty fast. Looks like the most imc I've logged in one flight is 2.2hrs out of a 5.8hr flight. I remember popping in and out during that one, and I doubt I did more than 30m at a time. I have a couple 1.5 hr flights that were almost all imc, and I'll say that it's tiring even with an autopilot. You still have to watch the instruments to make sure George hasn't f***ed off, and you still have to convince your brain you're still straight and level every time you turn your head. I wouldn't plan more than 2 hours solid without a break personally.
 
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I've done one flight in solid IMC for just over 2 hours. I was glad when I broke out and landed. Super tired and my eyes felt crossed and I did not have an auto pilot at the time.

Even now with an auto pilot I still try to avoid IMC if I can, I'd rather punch through a layer to get on top and land vmc. Good thing is there in no place I HAVE to be so if it's that bad I don't fly.
 
The weird one was the one I spent nearly 5 hours between layers on the way to Oshkosh one year. Technically we were VMC but couldn't see the ground or blue sky.
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Back when I was young (er) and newly IR'd, I flew from FDK MD to IWI ME totally in the soup in a Cherokee 140 with out an a/p, wife aboard, in the neighborhood of 4 hours. Not much turbulence, but a fair amount of precip. Had to stay below 7k due to icing above, so no climbing over, and MEA's were too high to go under. The hardest part isn't the hand flying, it's coping with the re-routes once up toward NY and Boston. Fortunately had a 430W, but this was pre Foreflight, so reading the charts (ENE and EEN look REALLY similar under those conditions) folding and refolding charts, watching the dials and reprogramming the GPS took it's toll. Breaking out at 800 agl and seeing the runway lights was the prettiest thing I ever saw. Never felt behind the airplane but it was a challenge. Great for the experience bucket.

Wife slept through the whole thing. As a non-pilot, just as well.

I love having an a/p. Today, if facing the same trip with an inop autopilot, I would probably scrub. I like flying up through the deck, maybe a little taste of IMC enroute, and descending down the through the deck comfortably above minima. I fly for fun. Being in it 4 hours straight and and approach to minimums ain't fun anymore.
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Funny the things we did when we were younger, that given the option today we probably wouldn't.

You really begin to question yourself when the frequency has been dead quiet. After what seemed like an eternity I called up Chicago Center just to make sure the world still existed and I was on the right frequency. The controller replied, "Yep you are still with me, just haven't had anyone go through here today."
 
I did 2.1 of pretty solid IMC during a 3.9. Autopilot was rock solid so I was just babysitting and watching weather. Air was smooth so it didn't tire me out. I flew 13.5 total that day (2.8 IMC). That's what tired me out.
 
Morgan3820 said:
With the upgrades, I finally have a 2 axis digital auto pilot with an Aspen E5. In the past, my flights IFR would involve relatively short moments of IMC. Typically on departure or approach with occasional en route. But now that I have this new capability I am considering the possibility of allowing myself longer flights all in IMC. I know that for you pro pilots that this is a nonissue but How many of you private pilots regularly do 2 1/2 to 3 hour flights totally IMC. I am not sure how myself or my passengers would react to a long flight without seeing the sun or the ground or any horizon. Curious to see what other people think.
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I have done a 2.5 hour flight in IMC from shortly after takeoff to shortly before landing. I won't do it without at least 1000' ceiling under me the majority of the way. If the engine quits you want at least a bit of time to figure out where to land when you pop out of the clouds.
 
Jim K said:
Generally the areas of imc aren't all that widespread and airplanes move pretty fast.
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Good point which brings up an interesting follow up question. If a weather pattern is snarky and large enough to give you IMC over that wide of the US for that long, then might it not have other weather problems as well? Icing, turbulence, wind shear, etc.?
 
Really depends on the full picture. I got my private in New England, and IMC in 2-3 mile haze was very common. That kind of IMC flying isn't so bad (in the day time, not at night (JFK Jr...). Getting bounced with moderate turbulence for 3 hours, even while monitoring George and not hand flying, is a work out. You need to really consider what your mental state will be after that flight, and how challenging the approach might be, or how challenging an enroute diversion approach would be.

Passenger tolerance/comfort is a whole 'nuther question, and will vary greatly.
 
I can only remember two flights in 30 years that I conducted in cloud from shortly after departure to breaking out on approach. One flight was almost 3 hours to Morgantown WV (the surrounding mountains will reinforce your discipline to fly the whole approach and stay above minimums), and the other about 90 minutes (to Trenton Mercer in constant light rain and mist). And those were when I was younger and pre-autopilot. It is doable if one is proficient, but it is very tiring. Typically, I will seek out VFR conditions above or between layers. It just makes it easier to evaluate weather and stay out of potential icing, as well as being smoother and more comfortable. Most IFR flights are an IFR climb to on top or between layers, and an IFR descent or approach at the arrival end. That's relatively easy-peasy.
 
Vast majority of my flights are VMC, with either no IMC, or relatively brief encounters. Second to that, there are 10-15 minutes stretches of consistent IMC. Beyond that, I've had maybe 7-8 flights in total where it was IMC for the vast majority of the flight, with one of the flights being right around 3 hours. As has been mentioned before, convective activity & icing are of more concern than simply being in 'IMC'. Not all IMC is created equal...not even close.
 
I did 1.4 the other night with 1.3 hard IMC (no horizon, no ground, no nothing) and it crossed over into night IMC. Mild winds, but not calm. Shot 2 approaches to minimums and the missed, then went to another airport and was able to break out at 600' AGL. All with steam gauges and no autopilot and it was a workout. It's not impossible, but you have to realize that the tools you have are only as good as you are comfortable with them. An A320 has all the bells and whistles to land in zero-zero, but I wouldn't be comfortable there because I haven't spent time with them. Prior to that, I'd only had one other flight that was almost all IMC, and that was 2.8 of 3.2.

It isn't that bad looking at white, but at the same time, it's not nearly as enjoyable as seeing the wonderful things beneath you. If there are other options, try those, but as long as you are comfortable with your avionics, don't shy away from it, especially if you feel comfortable with your autopilot. MAKE SURE you know how to operate your AP and what you would do if there was an issue with it. They are very reliable, but in the instance where something happens, you still need to be able to fly the airplane.
 
My very first solo IFR flight was 1.3 total, 1.0 actual, 0.8 night. Entered the clouds at 1200 AGL and broke out on the ILS at the other end at 550 AGL with nothing but white (and dark grey) in between. I have higher personal minimums now :D

If me then read this thread, he'd ask, "what's an autopilot?"
 
When I was flight instructing full time and doing part 91 flying, sometimes weather would be crappy the entire XC. A good AP makes it a non event. Pax on the part 91 flights flew so often with us that nothing really phased them. They would just play on their phones and listen to music or sleep.
 
midlifeflyer said:
My very first solo IFR flight was 1.3 total, 1.0 actual, 0.8 night. Entered the clouds at 1200 AGL"
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Other than the .8 night, I have a pre-solo entry like this. No kidding, my CFI thought we could make it in for some pattern work at a nearby airport. Due to routing and deteriorating weather, we got an IMV takeoff and en route, two laps at the destination, then headed back in solid IMC for an RNAV approach.

I got a lot of instruction on that flight.
 
Single pilot IFR without an AP, or at least wing leveler, is hard work in a light single. I'm not a professional pilot and 2 1/2 hours in the clag hand flying is tiring. I wouldn't launch into it if my AP wasn't working. Yeah, yeah, I know, the AP can always go Tango Uniform or kick off in turbulence. If it does I'll have to gut it out.

I think I'd look at how rough I expect the ride to be, where I have some "outs" by either diverting, getting on top, or just delay my launch. ADS-B weather or not, I won't get in the clag if convective is possible - I'd either get on-top or underneath. A weather radar guru told me a thunderstorm can build from nothing to a cell in five minutes.
 
Sundancer said:
Single pilot IFR without an AP, or at least wing leveler, is hard work in a light single. I'm not a professional pilot and 2 1/2 hours in the clag hand flying is tiring. I wouldn't launch into it if my AP wasn't working. Yeah, yeah, I know, the AP can always go Tango Uniform or kick off in turbulence. If it does I'll have to gut it out.

I think I'd look at how rough I expect the ride to be, where I have some "outs" by either diverting, getting on top, or just delay my launch. ADS-B weather or not, I won't get in the clag if convective is possible - I'd either get on-top or underneath. A weather radar guru told me a thunderstorm can build from nothing to a cell in five minutes.
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I’m with you, I wouldn’t launch into IMC with a inoperable autopilot or anything else for that matter, I want all the tools at my disposal.
 
Been flying the same platform for about 14 years now with a decent amount of time in IMC. My total AP time in nearly a decade and a half is probably around 90 minutes with nearly all of it in VMC for testing purposes. Having 3-axis trim certainly helps. The elevator trim is SUPER granular, which is key. I'm struggling to come up with cases where I've found myself wishing for a high end autopilot while operating a simple piston single.

Conversely, I've been operating a Challenger 650 in the sim at home for just under a year now. I greatly appreciate the utility of the AP (and ATS) in that aircraft and I use it heavily on every single flight. I say that so it's clear that I'm not anti-AP in every case. However, in an aircraft with simple systems, even a relatively quick one (190-200ktas), I do not find myself wanting for a fully functional AP in IMC, even knowing what they CAN offer based on the sim experience.
 
Once you get an IR it becomes hard to find hours of IMC! But have made numerous “all IMC” flights over two to three hours with and w/o AP. Good way to really learn to trim and fly with fingertips. After a while should be a walk in the park if a bit boring.
 
Lately my IMC has been coupled with turbulence at the “will the wife fly with me again” level. But still looking for when I can do an another IMC approach after a year and a half of having the IR. I’ve done only one and it was all the way down to 1000 AGL - pattern altitude!
 
WDD said:
Lately my IMC has been coupled with turbulence at the “will the wife fly with me again” level. But still looking for when I can do an another IMC approach after a year and a half of having the IR. I’ve done only one and it was all the way down to 1000 AGL - pattern altitude!
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Many of the IMC flights X/C but others are "on purpose" seeking the opportunity to practice. On a 700/1 day it's always good to go up and do a bunch of approaches if possible. After 1.5 years of course need the IPC to do solo.
 
I’m now 65 and haven’t been IFR current and proficient for many years. Looking to get with my CFII to get going again. Appreciating others perspectives on XC flight in IMC.
 
Rcmutz said:
I’m now 65 and haven’t been IFR current and proficient for many years. Looking to get with my CFII to get going again. Appreciating others perspectives on XC flight in IMC.
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Fantastic! Spend some time getting familiar with the navigator in your plane. Garmin has simulators you can download if it’s a GTN.
 
One thing that's kind of relaxing in IMC is that you don't need to keep looking for traffic. :)
 
Honestly, I think it is easier to remain in solid IMC than it is to be transition in and out of IMC constantly. I would much rather have a smooth day with solid IMC than a more convective bumpy ass day where I am being rocked every time I enter IMC.

Anyhow, the hardest part of flying in IMC is the first minute or so of transition. After that, it's easy.

If you feel like you need the autopilot to be able to fly in the stuff non-stop for hours, then, you should turn the autopilot off and keep practicing without it. The biggest risk with this stuff is that you straight up forget how to fly in IMC without the autopilot and you auger yourself in when the day comes that it finally fails.

Doing IPCs, I see by far more pilots that are dangerously dependent on their autopilot versus ones that actually get a safety increase.
 
I’ve only flown with an AP once, and that was for the VFR X country and complex aircraft requirement for Commercial.
 
I try to as much of my practice IFR with no AP. But also need to keep sharp with the automation.
 
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Morgan3820 said:
With the upgrades, I finally have a 2 axis digital auto pilot with an Aspen E5. In the past, my flights IFR would involve relatively short moments of IMC. Typically on departure or approach with occasional en route. But now that I have this new capability I am considering the possibility of allowing myself longer flights all in IMC. I know that for you pro pilots that this is a nonissue but How many of you private pilots regularly do 2 1/2 to 3 hour flights totally IMC. I am not sure how myself or my passengers would react to a long flight without seeing the sun or the ground or any horizon. Curious to see what other people think.
Click to expand...
Regularly? No. "totally IMC" is rarely that "total" especially over the course of a 2.5-3 hour flight. By far, most of my IFR flights, if there is any IMC at all, involve going through a cloud layer on the way up or down.

Pro pilots? Dunno. This was my first solo IFR flight after earning my tucked a week earlier. Two NAV/COM, ADF, no GPS, no DME, no autopilot. If I knew more, I probably could have asked for higher and been in the clear.
1.3 total, 1.0 actual, 0.8 night, ILS approach to 550 AGL.

But more common than that is the 3 stop, 5 hour flight with 1.3 in IMC.
 
Dual alternator's or electrical system redundancy? That would be a deal breaker for me for a planned extended flight in IMC. Also, recency of experience in whatever systems you do have in case of electrical system failure?

First IMC flight with instructor for my IFR ticket, vacuum pump failed 10 minutes after takeoff. That was a good learning experience. The biggest one was, sh*t fails at the worst possible time.

First IMC solo flight after getting my IFR ticket: It was a beautiful, sunny, clear summer day in California, just a few miles from my flight path. What could go wrong?

This was supposed to be a "baby steps" flight, climbing up thru a thin marine layer, cruise on top for 20 minutes, and the do one approach down thru the marine layer to a nearby airport. Then go missed and and return home.

Suddenly, my non-IFR GPS I relied on for "situational awareness" (apparently too much), went black screen, also about 10 minutes after takeoff.

So, I was dual VOR's only for NAV. Then ATC started giving me an entire series of heading and altitude changes that took me off my flight plan.

And then the non-reported turbulence started. And the thought crossed my mind, "What if I had an alternator failure right now?".

And the "thin marine layer"? I was solid IMC the whole time.

I got mentally overloaded, lost complete situational awareness, and scared the crap out of myself. Panic was setting in.

The only thing that saved me was I entered into a small hole of VMC. I immediately told ATC I was just going to circle here for a few minutes because I was having problems. Fortunately, they didn't have a problem with it. After circling for a few minutes, I finally cleared my head, decided on a plan of action, and ended up getting myself, and the plane, home in one piece.

GPS failure, cloud layer not as reported, turbulence not as reported, rapid ATC changes, all stacked up to overload a newbie. After the fact I realized there were a number of things I could have, should have, done. But when everything is going "not as planned" it can overload you quite fast in solid IMC.

I quickly learned the reality, and dead seriousness, of flying in solid IMC. Backup systems, pilot experience, and a pilot's ability to stay calm and deal with multiple unexpected problems can mean the difference between life and death. The experience made me think long and hard about IFR flying.
 
Lndwarrior said:
The only thing that saved me was I entered into a small hole of VMC. I immediately told ATC I was just going to circle here for a few minutes because I was having problems. Fortunately, they didn't have a problem with it. After circling for a few minutes, I finally cleared my head, decided on a plan of action, and ended up getting myself, and the plane, home in one piece.
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Good recovery!

This wasn't clear from your description but I hope you realize - if not then, now - you could have asked ATC for that help without reaching VMC - when you arguably needed it even more. Way too many pilots don't, whether out of fear of (mostly nonexistent) repercussions or bravado.
 
the longest I have been was somewhere close to an hour and ten or so without an AP. it was tiring, but excellent experience. That said, I knew that if the vacuum system died I could descend to clear air. I enjoy the challenge of solid IMC when I know I have an out.

I am certainly looking fwd to getting AP installed this fall. I feel like I have paid my dues hand flying in a lot of IMC.
 
What AP are you installing?
 
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