ILS Required?

lancie00

lancie00

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lancie00
We have an Arrow with a King KX 155 with glideslope connected to a KI 209. We'd like to install a Garmin 175 and connect it to the KI 209 and connect our KX155 to a KI 203 (already installed) which doesn't have glideslope. Our avionics guy says we have to install another new CDI because ILS is REQUIRED along with the GPS.

This doesn't sound right to me. Per 91.205 all that's required is "navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown". In fact, I don't think vertical guidance is required at all. Am I wrong?
 
I think you are right. I've never heard what he said. Maybe the KX 155 isn't compatible with the KI 203. What NAV is the KI 203 using now?
 
pls lemme know if u are looking to get rid of ur kx155 :)
 
luvflyin said:
I think you are right. I've never heard what he said. Maybe the KX 155 isn't compatible with the KI 203. What NAV is the KI 203 using now?
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Right now the KI 203 is being driven by another KX155 without GS. Our plan was to take that out when the GPS went in. Maybe keep it as a second comm.
 
The 175 requires glideslope for IFR. There is no requirement for ILS capability.
 
I could be wrong, but I think that's complete BS. Here's a video that covers a lot of stuff with FAA references included:
 
Jesse Saint said:
The 175 requires glideslope for IFR. There is no requirement for ILS capability.
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Yes, the 175 would require displaying glideslope for IFR which is why I wanted to connect it to the KI 209. However, I just wanted to connect the KX155 to a Ki 203 for directional guidance only, no GS.
 
The installation manual says that in must have vertical deviation in order to perform approaches with vertical guidance, so any approach without vertical guidance it can fly IFR, and en route it can fly IFR without a glide slope needle. So, any approach with a V or +V it can't fly without a glide slope, which is most of them that I have seen lately.
 
Jesse Saint said:
The installation manual says that in must have vertical deviation in order to perform approaches with vertical guidance, so any approach without vertical guidance it can fly IFR, and en route it can fly IFR without a glide slope needle. So, any approach with a V or +V it can't fly without a glide slope, which is most of them that I have seen lately.
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That's why we want to connect the GPS to the KI 209, it has GS. But my avionics guy says we have to have ANOTHER CDI with GS too??? Can't we just connect the KX 155 to the KI 203 as a VOR?
 
lancie00 said:
That's why we want to connect the GPS to the KI 209, it has GS. But my avionics guy says we have to have ANOTHER CDI with GS too??? Can't we just connect the KX 155 to the KI 203 as a VOR?
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I dunno, but it wouldn't surprise me if a KI 155 w/GS just wont do it. Like all of it's wires have to be connected to something. There would be nowhere for the GS signal to go to.
 
There is no need for another Nav radio at all. As in that posted video, there are some limitations when going this route. You may not be able to take an IFR check ride (and you may not be able to do all your IFR training) without ILS capability, but that, as far as I understand things, would be your only limitation.
 
Have your avionics guy install the other KX155 with no GS to your 203. Then swap your KX155 with GS in if that’s what you want to use.

Is that bad? I wouldn’t do it or recommend it, but you could do it I suppose.
 
If it was me, I’d find a second ki209 indicator and retain the glideslope on the kx155. They can be found cheaply enough that I wouldn’t want to give up the option of the ability to do an ILS.
 
I don't quite understand.

Sounds like you have:
KX155/GS-->KI209
KX155/noGS-->KI203

You want to remove the KX155/noGS and install a GPS175, then re-wire the KI203 to the KX155/GS and the KI209 to the GPS175.

Why not just remove the KX155/GS and re-wire the KI209 to the GPS175?
 
asicer said:
I don't quite understand.

Sounds like you have:
KX155/GS-->KI209
KX155/noGS-->KI203

You want to remove the KX155/noGS and install a GPS175, then re-wire the KI203 to the KX155/GS and the KI209 to the GPS175.

Why not just remove the KX155/GS and re-wire the KI209 to the GPS175?
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I would be happy with that but according to my avionics guy, we can't do that because we're REQUIRED to have ILS.
 
lancie00 said:
I would be happy with that but according to my avionics guy, we can't do that because we're REQUIRED to have ILS.
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Remove KX155/GS and replace with GPS175 should be pretty straightforward. Sounds like something got lost in translation somewhere.
 
A KI 209 is not compatible with a GPS. A KI 209A can be made to work, so if you have a KI 209, you might have to swap it out for a KI 209A or use another GPS compatible CDI. I would keep the KX 155 and the KI 209, sell the other KI 208/KX155, and install a compatible CDI for the GPS.
 
You won't be able to use the KI 203 either to interface to the GPS. Regardless you will also need an HSI or Compatible CDI. One option is a G5 to connect to the GPS 175 or any HSI or a CDI that has a resolver output like the KI 206, GI 106A or many others.
 
lancie00 said:
I would be happy with that but according to my avionics guy, we can't do that because we're REQUIRED to have ILS.
Click to expand...

It is certainly desirable to have an ILS, but in no way is it required if you have a WAAS GPS like the GPS 175. It is also desirable to have the GPS connected to a compatible CDI with a vertical indicator, but it is not required. Vertical guidance is a great capability, but is not a requirement for IFR flight. If you only have the GPS 175 and don't also have a VOR/localizer system installed, you are good for legal IFR equipage under 91.205, but you can't take the instrument practical exam without a VOR or localizer capability on board.
 
I would avoid the argument altogether and find a way to make sure you have the ability to fly an ILS with your IFR-capable aircraft. You have a nice radio capable of making these precision ground-based approaches available to you. All that's separating you from this is the marginal cost of a CDI upgrade. If this aircraft is to be used for IFR, you really should have it.

Re: the KI-209, I agree with John Collins in that this indicator will not work with your IFR GPS. Perhaps you meant a KI-209A? If you meant the former, you're going to need a new CDI anyway, so you might as well mate it to the KX-155 with GS.
 
lancie00 said:
I would be happy with that but according to my avionics guy, we can't do that because we're REQUIRED to have ILS.
Click to expand...

Back to that? Is he telling you literally that? That the FAR’s or something say you can’t fly a plane IFR if it doesn’t have an ILS in it? That being asked I think the above few posts are sage advice.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
I have a kx155 without glideslope if you need to buy one.
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I appreciate that but I do need the glideslope. thing is, nav and comm work fine, it's just the display that is starting to flicker out at times, works fine other times. PITA.
 
John Collins said:
A KI 209 is not compatible with a GPS. A KI 209A can be made to work, so if you have a KI 209, you might have to swap it out for a KI 209A or use another GPS compatible CDI. I would keep the KX 155 and the KI 209, sell the other KI 208/KX155, and install a compatible CDI for the GPS.
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im sure jesse can verify if this is correct, but I believe the 175 manual states it will drive a KI-209, it does not have to be a KI-209A.
 
It will work with the 209. The 209A will connect to both the KX155 and the 175 and switch between them.
 
Thanks for the correction. I researched and found this same conversation reiterated multiple times over a number of years, although not specifically for the 175, more for other GPS -- that the 209A was always required for GPS. Is the 175 unique in some way? Wondering why this is so commonly stated (and I believe I was told this by an avionics shop at least a couple of times over the years, too.)
 
I think here was a period of time that Garmin said the 209 wouldn’t work, but now it is supported and does work. I’ve done it.
 
I was incorrect when I stated the GPS 175 could not work with a KI-208 or KI-209. The GPS 175 provides a Composite localizer output that can provide a left-right indication on a KI-208/209. The OBS function will not work in this configuration.
 
Jesse Saint said:
I think here was a period of time that Garmin said the 209 wouldn’t work, but now it is supported and does work. I’ve done it.
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Ahhh, it's due to the composite output available from the GPS175 and other GTN series (GNX375 included I'd imagine.)

Am I correct in believing that the KI-209 would not work with a GNS series? The KI-209A would be required for those Navigators?
 
John Collins said:
The OBS function will not work in this configuration.
Click to expand...

I would think this is an important capability for this installation... ?

If true, I would not want to install the 209 as interfaced with a GPS Navigator.
 
Ryan F. said:
I would think this is an important capability for this installation... ?

If true, I would not want to install the 209 as interfaced with a GPS Navigator.
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No, because with a gps it does not need the obs, it is just showing deviation from the magenta line.
 
luvflyin said:
It can still come in handy to put the magenta line where you want it. Like ‘fly heading[whatever], intercept[airway]
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doesn't work that way. the GPS box does all that. the KI209 just shows deviation from the course the GPS sets. so it does not need the input from the obs in the KI-209. you only need an OBS input to fly a VOR.
 
The obs on a gps will let you set the bearing to a waypoint as opposed to a Direct-To. I’ve never used it, but that is what it does.
 
unsafervguy said:
doesn't work that way. the GPS box does all that. the KI209 just shows deviation from the course the GPS sets. so it does not need the input from the obs in the KI-209. you only need an OBS input to fly a VOR.
Click to expand...

^^^^^^^^:yeahthat: What Jesse said
 
Jesse Saint said:
The obs on a gps will let you set the bearing to a waypoint as opposed to a Direct-To. I’ve never used it, but that is what it does.
Click to expand...
Right, but on the newer GPS such as the GPS175/GNC355/GNX375 the OBS input does not have to come from the knob on the CDI. You can input it right from the screen. You don't necessarily lose OBS functionality by going with a KI209 instead of a KI209a

And actually, you don't need the OBS function as much as the older units since newer GPS have "Course To" and "Hold At" functions when you select D>
 
asicer said:
Right, but on the newer GPS such as the GPS175/GNC355/GNX375 the OBS input does not have to come from the knob on the CDI. You can input it right from the screen. You don't necessarily lose OBS functionality by going with a KI209 instead of a KI209a

And actually, you don't need the OBS function as much as the older units since newer GPS have "Course To" and "Hold At" functions when you select D>
Click to expand...

I think some of the older units do the Course To thing also. But [push] [twist] sure beats click push click click click......click push, repeat, repeat, repeat........
 
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